How to alienate people (for fun and profit)

[DemitriousK]

Let me preface that this has nothing to do with being right or wrong about a given subject. This has to do with how you can be RIGHT and still be changing things for the WORSE... And how all those people who are WRONG get so many people to believe them!

It's amazing that so many people with such good intentions can (and do) go about helping in such a counter productive way!

For everyone here who's ever said "positive reinforcement is the only proper way to train" and also managed to call someone (in of course not so many words) a worthless human being in the same post: SHAME ON YOU. For everyone here who has in the same breath expected to change another persons opinion while completely humiliating them in the process: SHAME ON YOU TOO! For everyone who demands that theirs is the one true way, expecting everyone else to not only agree but completely denounce everything they've believed for so long all in the same instant... But isn't willing to give another persons views the time of day... SHAME! People like you run off the people who are trying to gain the understandings that you take for granted. People like you run off potential friends without giving them a chance. People like you actually HURT the pets of the people who are trying to do their best... The person who you run off because they have mistreated their puppy (because they didn't know better or how to handle the situation) will probably NEVER COME BACK, AND PROBABLY NEVER IMPROVE THEIR PRACTICES... That pet will likely NEVER have a safe and sane home that your PATIENT advice could have provided!

Want to know the secret behind truly making a difference in peoples lives? Want to know the secret to educating the uneducated? Want to know how you can become a respectable pillar from which attention is not only demanded but to which it is freely given? The answer is surprisingly simple:

Do not alienate people. (The more valuable a person feels because of how you treat them the more weight they will give your words!)

If you're trying to convince me that your way is correct and that my way is incorrect... telling me outright that my way is wrong does only one thing: It causes me to be defensive! And while I am defensive I WILL NOT CONSIDER YOUR IDEAS (however valid those ideas might be). If you will not consider my opinion at least as long as you expect me to consider yours. Why should I consider your opinion at all? You seem to be incapable of learning or evolving... If I come to you asking for help, and you make me feel like an idiot for not knowing (not knowing something that I'm already admitting to not knowing by having ASKED the question in the first place) I will never come back to ask another question. I will continue in my ignorance because it is SAFER FOR ME TO BE WRONG THAN TO ASK AND BECOME RIGHT.

And before you write this off as not being directed at you, take some time to review your replies to those people who riled your feathers, or asked the dumb question, or did the things you didn't like because they were ignorant... If you are blameless, then that is a wonderful thing. But everyone should keep these things in mind especially when an "outsider" comes around asking for help... You don't kick a dog who's already down, do you?

And yes, I do understand that this post is a prime example of what it is speaking against. but if you've made it this far... how did it make you feel? Good bad or indifferent? How would the person already at the breaking point because they cant handle their new puppy have reacted if I had chastised them in the same way?

Since you are still reading I'll assume that you have a thick skin, and want to know how I think you can make a difference in whichever cause you're fighting for? Well... since you're still reading I'll tell you:

Train your audience. If you make the practice of engaging in a *two way* conversation with you a rewarding and (more importantly) enjoyable experience your audience will almost certainly take the time to consider your points on some level. Positive reinforcement works well here, and negative reinforcement will undo the good work of 10 people...

Patience. Just as it takes a while for your dog to learn to deal with its new bladder and where to relieve it (once its figured out what that nagging sensation actually MEANS) it may take a while for your audience to come around. If you reinforce the interim time period negatively your audience is guaranteed never to come around.

Explain yourself. Why should someone take your word as gospel? Why should you expect them to? If you don't feel that you should have to have a reason for being right, your audience wont feel as if you should be even considered to be right.

Expect to have to listen to and at least understand your audience! If you cannot empathize with them, they will never empathize with you. This is the hardest part of being a truly convincing speaker. Why should you have to even consider their obviously wrong rationale?! Three reasons. First it makes them feel valuable which is a reward, and that will keep them engaged with you. Second... If you're truly right then taking the time to pay attention to what they have to say shouldn't be able to change your mind: what's true is true after one two or five hundred attacks. And third: if you spend all your time being perfect you might miss something worth learning. Yea... someone other than you might have something to say which is worth hearing... :D

If you work to correct without condemning and alienating people then you will truly have a shot at making this world a better place by righting one wrong idea at a time. If you, however, can only be abrasive... well... how many people do *you* spend time with that constantly get on *your* nerves?

[DemitriousK]

Let me don my fireproof, FLAME resistant outfit... True to my own advice I will now take and properly consider everything anyone has to say about my little rant. good bad or otherwise. reply (even flame if you have to) away!

[Roxy's CD]

Everyone has good and bad days.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. How they voice it is their choice. If people choose to listen, that is also their choice.

There are many people who have been very blunt and rude to me while I was asking for advice, and I did not take offense. Sometimes I didn't say anything, sometimes I defended myself and others I admitted I was wrong. But either way, most of the time the advice is good and I take it and run.

I feel a bit of sympathy for people that come here and get flamed, only the ones that know no better. (like myself sometimes). But hey, it's the internet, getting flamed on Chaz can't be the biggest thing going on in your life.

I've been flamed before. I've got in debates. Does it change my whole life? Nope it doesn't. Does it make me mad sometimes? Yep sure does, but ultimately it doesn't change my life really.

I think with a lot of the more "experienced people" here on chaz, they have to repeat themselves a lot with every newbie. So after a while it gets redundant. If the newbie is posting about something that chazzers think is downright wrong, you have to expect people to get upset about it.

Ex) I've been beating my dog trying to get it to submit and it's not working!

Of course people are going to get upset when they hear stuff like that. I don't blame them. Me, personally, I'd decide whether this person has done this unknowingly, because their uneducated.. and go from there..

That was long.. I'm done. I have a headache. LOL

[Buddy'sParents]

But isn't educating better than sending the person away? If we educate, instead of alienate them, we HELP people.... why doesn't everyone get that? :confused:

[Kase]

I thought that was a very detailed, informative post, I understood what you were getting at.

[Buddy'sParents]

I thought that was a very detailed, informative post, I understood what you were getting at.


Maybe THAT'S why I like you so much! ;) are you online? let's chat!

[Roxy's CD]

Oh, I understand what your getting at. People come here for help and by flaming them they leave.. and don't get the information they were looking for.

I guess just personally getting flamed wouldn't make me want to leave, but find out why I was flamed. What was wrong with what I did, what should I do and why. And if I was wrong, I'll admit it and change my ways.

Helping people is a good thing, I think we just have to remember that not only are the people asking the questions humans but so are the people answering. They have their own experiences, their own thoughts and their own morals. Something that may be common knowledge to them may be something some people have never heard of... therefore explaining something so simple to them, may get frusterating.

I'm just trying to say that I can see both ends of the spectrum.

People asking questions and getting flamed: I feel bad for them, they came for info and got bashed.

People answering questions "in a rude tone or manner": Maybe their just having a bad day, or maybe they had a bad experience that upsets them on the subject.

[DemitriousK]

All valid points, roxy! Allow me to make a couple of comments on your comments :D

Everyone has good and bad days.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. How they voice it is their choice. If people choose to listen, that is also their choice.

There are many people who have been very blunt and rude to me while I was asking for advice, and I did not take offense. Sometimes I didn't say anything, sometimes I defended myself and others I admitted I was wrong. But either way, most of the time the advice is good and I take it and run.

I feel a bit of sympathy for people that come here and get flamed, only the ones that know no better. (like myself sometimes). But hey, it's the internet, getting flamed on Chaz can't be the biggest thing going on in your life.

I've been flamed before. I've got in debates. Does it change my whole life? Nope it doesn't. Does it make me mad sometimes? Yep sure does, but ultimately it doesn't change my life really.


No, it probably wouldnt change your life... or the life of someone else. But it also won't change the life of a dog who's being abused because of somebody being simply uninformed (as opposed to just malignant.) What I see is that the pet being asked about is actually the one being hurt by the pet lovers found here. Its ironic that our dislike of members of our own species causes pain for a member of another species.... and that other species is that this place is all about, isnt it? Would you hurt a strangers dog because you didnt like the stranger? In person probably not, but thats exactly what I see going on here. The difference is the clean consience of not having to see the rest of the lift of the dog short (because it waas put down for being viscious (read: unsocialized and or cared for properly)) or long (a whole long life lived in fear of getting your owner angry and not knowing why... or worse... alone in the back yard with no one to belong to at all)


I think with a lot of the more "experienced people" here on chaz, they have to repeat themselves a lot with every newbie. So after a while it gets redundant. If the newbie is posting about something that chazzers think is downright wrong, you have to expect people to get upset about it.

Ex) I've been beating my dog trying to get it to submit and it's not working!


A constructive use of those peoples time would be in putting together a chazhouds FAQ, and simply linking to it and saying "happens all the time... look at question 10"


Of course people are going to get upset when they hear stuff like that. I don't blame them. Me, personally, I'd decide whether this person has done this unknowingly, because their uneducated.. and go from there..

That was long.. I'm done. I have a headache. LOL

I appreciate the response!

[DemitriousK]

Absolutely... It's very important to understand everyone involved. I, like you, tend to have a very tough internet skin... other people... not so tough... but if we care about their pets, we should take the time to answer well... or not answer at all... letting someone else be constructive and taking a break every now and again... makes the burden lighter :)

People arent required to answer the same questio over and over... they do it on their own :) and their answers impact the lives of the pets being asked about :D

Oh, I understand what your getting at. People come here for help and by flaming them they leave.. and don't get the information they were looking for.

I guess just personally getting flamed wouldn't make me want to leave, but find out why I was flamed. What was wrong with what I did, what should I do and why. And if I was wrong, I'll admit it and change my ways.

Helping people is a good thing, I think we just have to remember that not only are the people asking the questions humans but so are the people answering. They have their own experiences, their own thoughts and their own morals. Something that may be common knowledge to them may be something some people have never heard of... therefore explaining something so simple to them, may get frusterating.

I'm just trying to say that I can see both ends of the spectrum.

People asking questions and getting flamed: I feel bad for them, they came for info and got bashed.

People answering questions "in a rude tone or manner": Maybe their just having a bad day, or maybe they had a bad experience that upsets them on the subject.

[Roxy's CD]

LOL.

That is a good idea Demetrious. A FAQ, very good idea.

I agree that sometimes when people get flamed it's not good for their dog, not getting the advice they needed. It's just I truly feel, (maybe it's because I'm thick skinned, LOL) that if I really needed help, and I got flamed I wouldn't care. I'd either ignore those people, or suck it up and admit it. Yano, like, Ok, I get it, I messed up, now how can I fix this? LOL

I try to reply "nicely" to training forum questions, or anything I may know a bit about, but there are some things that make me angry. I can't think of anything right now. LMAO, but there are, and I may find myself responding, not downright rudely, but in a defensive/offensive for better use of the word aggressive, tone. LOL

All in all though, some people should tone down the blunt rudeness a bit..

Am I blunt or rude??? Honestly?

[RD]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. I really think a lot of it is in how you say it. Most people here definitely have info, but sometimes the delivery needs work.

I'm definitely guilty of this and I really have no good excuse for it. I'm passionate about dogs and I get fired up easily (is being Italian any excuse? ;)) but it's still no reason to attack people and push them away. I am thick skinned, insults and flames usually do not get to me and because of that I can be terribly blunt at times.. I don't expect people to take things to heart. I need to work on that, lol

The people here are wonderful, they care very deeply for dogs and nobody likes to hear of dogs being neglected or mistreated. When we do hear of that, sometimes we get fired up and though I can't speak for other people, I don't always think before I post. I need to work on that, too. :p

But, yes, good post and good point. If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit. I know I am a far better dog owner now than I was before I joined 2 years ago.

[Aussie Red]

Good Post and agree. I try not to bash and don't like being bashed but have been . I'm tough and it really does not matter to me. I like to get info here and others views but have noticed alot of threads turning into a fire storm and just opt out of them.
I have chosen not to answer some threads as the content upsets me so I stay out of it .

[DemitriousK]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. I really think a lot of it is in how you say it. Most people here definitely have info, but sometimes the delivery needs work.

I'm definitely guilty of this and I really have no good excuse for it. I'm passionate about dogs and I get fired up easily (is being Italian any excuse? ;)) but it's still no reason to attack people and push them away. I am thick skinned, insults and flames usually do not get to me and because of that I can be terribly blunt at times.. I don't expect people to take things to heart. I need to work on that, lol

The people here are wonderful, they care very deeply for dogs and nobody likes to hear of dogs being neglected or mistreated. When we do hear of that, sometimes we get fired up and though I can't speak for other people, I don't always think before I post. I need to work on that, too. :p

But, yes, good post and good point. If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit. I know I am a far better dog owner now than I was before I joined 2 years ago.

Absolutely! Thats a wonderful paraphrase. I Love it! "If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit"

[DemitriousK]

Good Post and agree. I try not to bash and don't like being bashed but have been . I'm tough and it really does not matter to me. I like to get info here and others views but have noticed alot of threads turning into a fire storm and just opt out of them.

exactly what I would do! :)


I have chosen not to answer some threads as the content upsets me so I stay out of it .

Yep... sometimes staying out of something is the best you can do. and if it's better than pushing someone away and possibly hurting their puppy... its definately the best choice!

I think that if people learned that they arent *personally* responsible for replying to every (for example) potty training problem, they wouldnt get so irate. But when they obligate themselves to doing it it becomes work... and nobody likes work... especially when they feel like they're not getting anything baack from it... thats when it gets really nasty... :)

[DemitriousK]

As a first time puppy parent I can tell you that when I have to ask for help because I cant handle whats going on (which happens more than I'd like to admit) I feel *exactly like a new puppy who cant do anything right... and on top of that if you're in a new place where everyones yelling at you... well... "screw that" is what I would say (and a lot of people do, I'm sure)

It'd be like going to the vet the first time your dog got sick... you're scared to death... you didnt realize that being lethargic was *BAD* you thought your puppy was just having a lazy day... now hes throwing up and you feel like the worst failure of a parent that ever graced te face of the planet... and the vet tells you to give up now because you'll never add up to a good puppy owner.

Thats a *VERY* vulnerable moment for someone who cares... and a response like that... right then... crushing!!

[dr2little]

If you work to correct without condemning and alienating people then you will truly have a shot at making this world a better place by righting one wrong idea at a time. If you, however, can only be abrasive... well... how many people do *you* spend time with that constantly get on *your* nerves?

Not sure if you're referring to any of my posts but I'll bite...I'm definitely someone who practices and whole heartedly believes in non-aversive training techniques.
I think that it depends on the circumstance. I sit almost daily in the homes of people who, sometimes bravely, admit to having smacked, yanked and pinched their dogs in an attempt to have them comply. In all, and I do mean all without exception, of these cases I take a deep breath and proceed to counsel them without showing judgement. I'm painfully aware that my ability to help a dog is absolutely dependant on gaining the trust of the owners and showing them understanding and compassion, even if it is at times totally insincere on my part.
There have been times where, on this forum, I'm beyond exasberated with the lack of belief in a technique void of violence that I use successfully every day. It's not at all the genuine lack of knowledge that gets me going, it's the "in your face" approach to arguing FOR the use of physical punishment. I've also been accused of being arrogant for my committment to not using these methods. I've had youngsters with no bases for their arguements call me into question on my experience and education. I've resigned myself to answering training questions through PM so as to avoid having to deal with the posts advising the use of physical "stuff" to solve everything from nipping to obedience non-compliance. Oh and believe me, the PM's that I've gotten for not wanting to hurt dogs during training would melt your computer keys..:mad:

You may want to look at the flip side of this issue before reserving judgement yourself. I've even been "wrist slapped" by someone (with obvious "short comings" himself) defending a youngster on here who is clearly just looking to argue while making himself feel OK about what he does to his dog/s...(note - no names used;) )
I was pretty shocked when I first joined. I really thought that all dog lovers would want to know that training without physical correction really works. I will never go back to a day when we (trainers) used the rough stuff, why would I entertain the idea that it's effective "in some cases" when I know from experience that it's unnecessary. Been there...done that...will never "revert"!:D

[corsomom]

Thankyou for this post. I know I have been guilty of this and it does make me think.I know I posted something to someone and regreted it right away knowing I wasnt helping the problem.

[DemitriousK]

Not sure if you're referring to any of my posts but I'll bite...I'm definitely someone who practices and whole heartedly believes in non-aversive training techniques.

Actually I didnt (and dont plan to) bother looking at the names of the people who i've seen who set me on this rant. I'm not trying to be hall monitor, and it wouldnt get me anywhere anyhow. Unfortunately the people who will listen will listen a the people who wont wont. Maybe I'll get through to one or two people who would otherwise be abrasive and might not now. Thats enough for me :)


I think that it depends on the circumstance. I sit almost daily in the homes of people who, sometimes bravely, admit to having smacked, yanked and pinched their dogs in an attempt to have them comply. In all, and I do mean all without exception, of these cases I take a deep breath and proceed to counsel them without showing judgement.

I bet that, in most cases, this calm and non combative attitude that you take works too! By simply asking they've admitted that they dont know and need help and that you might know better than they do. If you were harsh about it... They'd probably find someone else, wouldnt they?

I'm painfully aware that my ability to help a dog is absolutely dependant on gaining the trust of the owners and showing them understanding and compassion, even if it is at times totally insincere on my part.
There have been times where, on this forum, I'm beyond exasberated with the lack of belief in a technique void of violence that I use successfully every day. It's not at all the genuine lack of knowledge that gets me going, it's the "in your face" approach to arguing FOR the use of physical punishment. I've also been accused of being arrogant for my committment to not using these methods. I've had youngsters with no bases for their arguements call me into question on my experience and education.

Thats exactly the kind of put off I've seen and am commenting about. Its not a good feeling to be condemned, put down, and put down as irrevokably and unarguably wrong. And if they ever wanted to share advice with you in the future I highly doubt you'd take it (even if it were good advice) because they didnt know how to deal with people who's views were different from their own.

Luckily you have a firm foundation in your knowledge, beliefe, and methods. But if you didnt feel deep down that you were right... would you have stayed in the face of such arrogance/ignorance/combativeness?

I've resigned myself to answering training questions through PM so as to avoid having to deal with the posts advising the use of physical "stuff" to solve everything from nipping to obedience non-compliance. Oh and believe me, the PM's that I've gotten for not wanting to hurt dogs during training would melt your computer keys..:mad:

You may want to look at the flip side of this issue before reserving judgement yourself. I've even been "wrist slapped" by someone (with obvious "short comings" himself) defending a youngster on here who is clearly just looking to argue while making himself feel OK about what he does to his dog/s...(note - no names used;) )

Yea... there is a definate difference between ignorance and meanspiritedness... :/

I was pretty shocked when I first joined. I really thought that all dog lovers would want to know that training without physical correction really works. I will never go back to a day when we (trainers) used the rough stuff, why would I entertain the idea that it's effective "in some cases" when I know from experience that it's unnecessary. Been there...done that...will never "revert"!:D

I've been shocked while reading some things on here myself. Its gratifying to know that I'm not the only one! Thanks for sharing!

[Citrus007]

I think the main problem is that we aren't speaking face to face with the person and so we can't tell their tone of voice. What may be simply trying to help can accidently be worded in a way that wouldn't sound mean if it had the right tone to it but we can't tell the tone so we take it personally.

[DemitriousK]

Thankyou for this post. I know I have been guilty of this and it does make me think.I know I posted something to someone and regreted it right away knowing I wasnt helping the problem.


Guilty myself... In a different place, time and medium... Guilty myself :/ But being wrong in the past is not something one can change... and we might not always change things in the future... but if we take the time to think about who we are and how we behave... and it causes even the effort to be a better person... It was worth having thought about :)

Very self aware... and brave... to admit something like that. I appreciate it!

[Buddy'sParents]

I was pretty shocked when I first joined. D


I have never agreed with how you were (and probably still are) treated. Someone with as much knowledge as you has sooo much to offer the board (*thinking back when Dr helped Buddy parents with some stuff* ;) ) and I am so very glad that you decided to stay!

[DemitriousK]

I think the main problem is that we aren't speaking face to face with the person and so we can't tell their tone of voice. What may be simply trying to help can accidently be worded in a way that wouldn't sound mean if it had the right tone to it but we can't tell the tone so we take it personally.

Oh yes! Very good incite! Forums are a lot like e-mail in that way! There's little to no body language, facial expression, tone of voice... and sometimes little to no context! And we certainly cannot see the reaction to what our replies are, iether... all of that makes for a difficult medium of communication...

And theres no real way of being able to guess how a persons situation at the moment might color how they read your words... We cannot control that... The only thing we can do is examine the intent of our words, and consider how we might feel in that situation...

Often times prefacing something you know might sound harsh (in a way you dont mean it to) that you cannot figure out how to reword with something like "I know this is going to sound harsh, and I dont mean it to..." and then perhaps explaining after the advice where *you* are coming from "the reason i feel so strongly is that I once had a...."

Kind of like a father having to punish a child for doing something that was wrong. You can still be what you need to be, but wrap it in a little love. Was it marry poppins? "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down" :)

[dr2little]

I had to take a deep breath before even hitting the reply button on this thread. I think that it's so hard sometimes to convey things that you're passionate about without reading the faces of the people you're talking with.

In my "in person" life, I'm not exactly known for being pushy or b!thcy...but on here I think it's hard to read people at times.
I really wanted to leave Chaz early on because I just felt UGLY in the way I responded to the criticism...now I just don't reply when I know I'm starting to feel the "OH YA, IT'S ON" persona coming on...:D

I do think that you make some great points. I read a thread the other day and while I felt the frustration and sadness for the pup for whom the thread originated, I was shocked at the level of attacks thrown at the OP and how quickly they progressed. Passion can bring out some "off the hip" kind of comments that really don't solve anything at all. After reading a few level headed helpful responses, I moved to another thread without responding..

[dr2little]

I have never agreed with how you were (and probably still are) treated. Someone with as much knowledge as you has sooo much to offer the board (*thinking back when Dr helped Buddy parents with some stuff* ;) ) and I am so very glad that you decided to stay!

I would have been the one missing out for sure. I'd never have been able to stay away long....Buddy withdrawl would have brought me back.:D :D
You were very good to me during that time and I won't forget it.;)

[DemitriousK]

I had to take a deep breath before even hitting the reply button on this thread. I think that it's so hard sometimes to convey things that you're passionate about without reading the faces of the people you're talking with.

I'm glad you did!

In my "in person" life, I'm not exactly known for being pushy or b!thcy...but on here I think it's hard to read people at times.
I really wanted to leave Chaz early on because I just felt UGLY in the way I responded to the criticism...now I just don't reply when I know I'm starting to feel the "OH YA, IT'S ON" persona coming on...:D

Just cant change some people... and others just want to fight... they're not called "trolls" for no reason :D

I do think that you make some great points. I read a thread the other day and while I felt the frustration and sadness for the pup for whom the thread originated, I was shocked at the level of attacks thrown at the OP and how quickly they progressed. Passion can bring out some "off the hip" kind of comments that really don't solve anything at all. After reading a few level headed helpful responses, I moved to another thread without responding..

I'm glad you think so.. I tried not to be critical without also being benificial. But in the end I have to admit this was more or less a rant ;) And yea... sometimes silence can be much more helpful than noise... It's hard to find the answers which are helpful to your question about potty training when people are arguing about whether a dog can feel guilty or not ;)

[Roxy's CD]

I know what you mean dr2little, sometimes you just feel that "oh no you didn't *waves finger*" attitude! LMAO

I'm a hothead in real life too, I find it harder to be that way here though, it's too much typing and I don't get to yell to release, so I usually stay calm! LOL

There are some hot topics that seem to get brought up a lot that are in the "personal" category that are debated about a lot. I've gotten involved a few times, but it just goes round and round until your back at the beginning again.

I think the main thing, is to not hold a grudge. Not to name any names but I will just because I know she's thickskinned :D, I know at one time I felt Red was very blunt maybe even borderline rude. But being the thickskinned person myself, I looked beyond that and found a great online trainer/helper! LOL.

If you hold grudges you lose out on valuable information. It's best to patch things up and leave it behind you.

[dr2little]

I know what you mean dr2little, sometimes you just feel that "oh no you didn't *waves finger*" attitude! LMAO

I'm a hothead in real life too, I find it harder to be that way here though, it's too much typing and I don't get to yell to release, so I usually stay calm! LOL

There are some hot topics that seem to get brought up a lot that are in the "personal" category that are debated about a lot. I've gotten involved a few times, but it just goes round and round until your back at the beginning again.

I think the main thing, is to not hold a grudge. Not to name any names but I will just because I know she's thickskinned :D, I know at one time I felt Red was very blunt maybe even borderline rude. But being the thickskinned person myself, I looked beyond that and found a great online trainer/helper! LOL.

If you hold grudges you lose out on valuable information. It's best to patch things up and leave it behind you.

You're right about the grudges for sure. I honestly can't remember (on purpose) the people who came across as blunt or rude on any given thread. I'm sure I have. There are a few though (one who's not here anymore) that I just won't respond to because I know there's an ulterier motive usually lurking for them...like maybe they're "grounded" at home for being lippy with their parents.:D :D

Seriously though, while I don't tend to be hot headed in real life, I too have hit reply and thought.."uuugghhh, why'd I do that"..I think we all have.
I really do enjoy Chaz, I wouldn't be here so much if I didn't....well that and the fact I have no life..heheheh:D

[dr2little]

Just cant change some people... and others just want to fight... they're not called "trolls" for no reason :D

hehe..trolls..hehe You said it, OK I was thinking it:D :D

[Buddy'sParents]

I think people just need to stop, count to 10 and THEN post!

I've been guilty of being rude myself and have since dropped that habit. I've learned that sometimes people just don't know any better and that's why they have come to Chaz... to learn.. so that they WILL know better.

[dr2little]

I think people just need to stop, count to 10 and THEN post!

I've been guilty of being rude myself and have since dropped that habit. I've learned that sometimes people just don't know any better and that's why they have come to Chaz... to learn.. so that they WILL know better.

I've noticed how calm and kind you are...you're biting on a bullet aren't you??:D
Maybe sometimes??;) I need to get me a bullet, yup a bullet..that's what I need.:p

[Buddy'sParents]

I've noticed how calm and kind you are...you're biting on a bullet aren't you??:D
Maybe sometimes??;) I need to get me a bullet, yup a bullet..that's what I need


LOL! There have been times when I have been SOOOOO upset! Ask Hubby.. he'll tell ya! I had to put a user on my ignore list it was that bad, I think the person existed soley to make me feel like a horrible dog parent! :rolleyes: And, while I have my moments when I feel I've let Buddy down, I know that I do the best I can.

I came here to chaz and I didn't know a thing about being a dog owner. Sure, my parents have had dogs, but they took care of training and they were alphas (or maybe just have good rescues... the pups are great). I've learned so much. If I would have been berated and flamed like so many are these days I know I would have left and not turned back. Why? Because I came here for help.. not to be told what an awful dog owner I was. And, thank God for Doberluv and Redyre at the time.. they helped! Now, I try to do the same for other newbies....annnnnd bite my bullet!! ;)

[Aussie Red]

Buddys Parents bad parents LOL . I think we could use a whole lot more bad parents then lol. Can not imagine anyone thinking your not doing the best for Buddy. Just had to say that .

[Buddy'sParents]

Buddys Parents bad parents LOL . I think we could use a whole lot more bad parents then lol. Can not imagine anyone thinking your not doing the best for Buddy. Just had to say that .


That was so nice of you to say! Thanks a lot. We do our best by our little man and we're still learning! ;)

[DemitriousK]

Buddys Parents bad parents LOL . I think we could use a whole lot more bad parents then lol. Can not imagine anyone thinking your not doing the best for Buddy. Just had to say that .

We try... but sometimes we still feel like aweful parents. It's hard because we care so much, and sometimes theres only so much we can do! But I think thats what makes quote good parents unquote... people willing to admit that they need help and to seek it...

Gosh I know there have been times where I've gone yelling and screaming and trmping around hitting large boxlike appliances (hurt like hell too... my hand was sore for a week) but we're *trying* :) (my wife is *much* more patient than I am)

Thanks for your vote of confidence :)

P.S. Yes I'm learning, gradually, to be a better dad :)

[dr2little]

Buddys Parents bad parents LOL . I think we could use a whole lot more bad parents then lol. Can not imagine anyone thinking your not doing the best for Buddy. Just had to say that .

You're so right Aussie. There are enough photo's of that totally adored doggie to wallpaper the Louvre..:D Poor Buddy...HA!!:D

[Buddy'sParents]

You're so right Aussie. There are enough photo's of that totally adored doggie to wallpaper the Louvre..:D Poor Buddy...HA!!




hey! I like to take pictures of my dog, alright?!


LOL!!! :D :D :D

I believe this is called thread hijacking!! *evil grin*

[RD]

Does it count if you "hijack" your husband's thread though? Wouldn't that be like hijacking the family car? :D

Dr2, I too am very glad you stayed. :D I admire you for the work you do and i love reading what you have to say.

[dr2little]

hey! I like to take pictures of my dog, alright?!


LOL!!! :D :D :D

I believe this is called thread hijacking!! *evil grin*
Hijacking..never! Do as I say and no one gets hurt!!;)

[Aussie Red]

After seeing the pics of Buddy at the beach and Buddy at the park I fell in love. And it is so nice to see two people care so much. There are so many good , loving, and concerned animal people here that I knew this was a place for me and that I am not the only one obsessed with trying to see to it that animals get fair treatment. I go to bed some nights with a heavy heart because of some of the posts here and other nights with so much excitement and anticipation waiting for news of a new arrival.
Chaz is great and therefore so are the CHAZZERS.

[Buddy'sParents]

Does it count if you "hijack" your husband's thread though? Wouldn't that be like hijacking the family car? :D



Good point! ;)

[Sweet72947]

Good post DemitriousK! Maybe some people should read this book: "How To Win Friends And Influence People" by Dale Carnegie :)

[DemitriousK]

Good post DemitriousK! Maybe some people should read this book: "How To Win Friends And Influence People" by Dale Carnegie :)


Thanks. Never read it personally, but I suspect that you are correct! :)

[Renee750il]

This fits nicely here:

Guard against anger erupting in body; in body, be restrained. Having abandoned bodily misconduct, live conducting yourself well in body. Guard against anger erupting in speech; in speech, be restrained. Having abandoned verbal misconduct, live conducting yourself well in speech.

-Dhammapada, 17, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

[jess2416]

I think more people need to read this

[DemitriousK]

indeed :)

[Angelique]

Good post DemitriousK! Maybe some people should read this book: "How To Win Friends And Influence People" by Dale Carnegie :)

Great book on the use of positive reinforcement on humans! :)

However, when humans have a flawed personal boundary system and/or becomed consumed with "right-fighting" over factual reality and truth, a NRM or a communication from their peers that their behavior is unacceptable and unproductive - also serves as a valid form of communicating boundaries on what is considered acceptable behavior within the group. :D

Great thread!

[Doberluv]

quote by Buddy's parents
I've learned so much. If I would have been berated and flamed like so many are these days I know I would have left and not turned back. Why? Because I came here for help.. not to be told what an awful dog owner I was. And, thank God for Doberluv and Redyre at the time.. they helped! Now, I try to do the same for other newbies....annnnnd bite my bullet!!

Thank you for that Buddy. I'm so glad if even one little idea I have helps someone have an easier time with their dog and their dog has an easier time with them. LOL.

This is a good thread, interesting concept and so true about positive reinforcement working better on people to prevent them from shutting down, backing away, getting discouraged, toning down and losing confidence and interest in learning. Positive punishment, on the other hand does all those things. Emphasising and rewarding the good behavior tends to make the good grow bigger and bigger.... and the unwanted behavior gets squeezed out for lack of space.

It is the same with people as it is with dogs that way, the same with every animal. Actually, I believe it's the same with higher non mammals as long as they have a decision making brain and aren't running off of pure instinct. I have tropical fish and I observe them and how they learn to make associations between things. When they're good associations, (me opening the lid to feed them shrimp) they all come rip roaring up to where my hand is like a bunch of school children running toward the source of free hand-outs of candy. If I'm cleaning the aquarium, blasting around the bottom with the vacuum, stirring up stuff, making the water bounce around, scaring them, they all hide down low behind the rocks and plants. Scary or unpleasant things happening make them withdraw. (duh) LOL. Good things make them perky and responsive.

The first trouble with humans is, I think, that we are supposedly the most intelligent of the species. I think it's our intelligence which is our advantage as well as our detriment. It's a double edged sword. I tend to have more patience with dogs than I do with people. I expect more out of people than I do from dogs. It's very frustrating when you have too high expectations. Too much frustration causes some of us to go into a certain level of fight or flight drive. And that's when the **** hits the fan. We're primates. Primates flail their arms around and make a lot of noise. :eek: LOL.

The second trouble with humans is that very fact that we are primates. Primates do things very differently than dogs. We are different than dogs than we are to eachother (in many ways), as well. Dogs are different to dogs than they are to us.

So, although I agree with what you say in this original, well thought out post, I also see some little glitches there on account of some of these factors. You say to us people who know that since non-aversive, none to little positive punishment in dog training works with all dogs and all mammals, it does in theory also work on people... then why do we do and say the rotten things we do... "Shame on us?" There is a little catch. We are primates. And we do relate to eachother differently than we do to dogs in many ways, depending on our expectations of people and our expectations of our dogs. If we have too high of expections for our dogs, we tend to treat them as we would the more intelligent human specie. We're highly emotional and complex.

With counter conditioning, we can modify a great deal of our behavior but I believe our intrinsic personalities have little hope for much change, (sort of like a dog who had no socialization as a puppy.) What's done is done. But there will usually be that time or two (only lol)where we fall back to our own nature and what we do with our thinking and emotions. And because of the huge array of individuals, experiences, personalities, there will coincide with that a huge multitude of behavioral responses.

Of course, the bottom line, as the original post here explains is that yes, as science shows us, giving a paycheck for one little good deed is more effective in behavior modification than giving a shove, (or positive punishment)...more effective because not only does it increase the probability of that good deed being repeated, (because all mammals work for reward) but it causes the subject NOT to shut down or withdraw, thus, they stick around eagerly to learn more. Learning then, because of momentum...snow balls.

I know I have not always been patient with some people on here. For that, I appologize. That's my personality to have a fairly short threshold for frustration. I am a primate and I have not had enough reinforcement probably for those few times where I was patient. So, long- lasting, high threshold patience is not something I learned to repeat in some cases. It never seems to pay off well enough.:D ROFLOL. And, on the other hand, like Dr.2Little, I have been accused of being arrogant, uneducated and a myraid of other uncomplimentary adjectives. (which I have never been accused of in real life) That positive punishment tends to catipult one like a rock from a sling shot...out of the thread, out of the desire to help someone asking for help, out of the state of having patience and into the fight or flight drive. :eek: It's probably got a lot to do with human nature, in other words.

We never know for a while who we're dealing with, what their background is, what their perception of something is. It's extremely difficult without the luxury of seeing, hearing, watching body language, facial gestures to communicate, as on the Internet. Our cultures and upbringings are different. Our entire personalities are not visable. So, added patience is something we need when on the Internet. And yet it's something we seem to be starving ourselves for because it's easy....since we're leaving out such a great deal of facets of communication. Nobody has to see us. We can leave and never come back. We have an out if we want one. We don't HAVE to deal with anything too challenging. So we become a little bit lax. (?)

Thanks for the invigorating thread. :)

[jess2416]

Well said Doberluv.......:) plus this needed a bump.... :D

[DemitriousK]

The problem with freedom is that people do with it what they want ;) And we all want things that are at odds to what we give. Like a row of steel balls on strings (I forget the name of the contraption) we arent content with our lot and so wish to pass on our misery to others.

We wish we had had a better day. So we do our best to make someone elses day worse. We wish that forum poster would know better, so we run him off instead of teaching him. And even though we try not to we all still slip once and a while and give our canin friends a good yelling at.

The truth of the matter is that we humans get overwhelmed easier than we like to admit. And the reason for it is that we care so much what other people think. We're social animals (even if, like me, we try not to be). It matters to us that he/she thinks I'm pretty/handsome. It matters that my co-workers think I'm an asset. And it matters that this person on the other end of a forum postspays attention to me. And it matters, to me, what my expectations are of you.

I think of all the sins that we commit on an hourly basis the most consistent is that we apply our unfounded expectations to people that we have no business expecting anything of. We expect that the new guy should learn his job as fast as we learned ours. We expect that the clerk at the movie store should have an opinion on whatever movie we randomly pick out of the inventory. We expect that someone posting to a dog forum should know better than to do that to a dog.

But, really, what right to we have to expect those things of those people? And by whose standards are we judging their measure of success? The honest truth is that we judge those people using ourselves as the yardstick.

"You're stupid" (at least more stopid than me)

"You're arrogant" (at least not as humble as I am)

"You're wrong" (at least not as right as I am)

"You're mean" (at least... I'm usually a lot nices)

We arbitrarily judge these people who come around looking for help by comparing them to ourselves. And by the same token we take the statements they make and use ourselves as the yardstick.

"they just called me arrogant"

"they just said I was wrong"

"they think I dont know what I'm talking about"

But we really have no right to make these comparisons. More than that we should have no need to. My advice to everyone is to feel confident in being who you are. Because if you're confident that you are how you want to be and think how you want to think and feel how you want to feel; the first time someone drops to the level of calling you a bottom feeding parasitic brainless piece of biological waste, you can chuckle to yourself and look at the situation from a detached, objective, perspective.

Another reason people blow up at other people is another facet of expectation. Once you have been around a person (or their thoughts) for a certain period of time you should begin to have an idea of how those people will behave in a situation. The kind of expectation that comes from experience (as opposed to unwarranted, arbitrary, expectations) are GOOD things. Those kinds of expectations are the gut feelings that tell you exactly how your best friend is going to handle hearing something like really bad news -- you know how they're going to react and you brace yourself for it. The problem comes when you want someone to act differently than their nature ditcates... and they let you down.

Theres nothing worse than thinking to yourself "just this once they'll understand and not do what they always do" and then they just go right ahead and do what they always do. We have no right to be dissappointed in people who meet expectations that we dislike.

You have to allow people to be who they're going to be. You dont have to like it. You dont have to be present for it. But you wont change it.

I know the original post wont change the way people come to the forums and conduct themselves. But I'm the kind of guy who tries. Even if I know its doomed. I cant live with myself unless I give the effort. If it fails... well then I can say I did kmy best, and I can sleep at night.

I think I've been rambling... sorry about that.

[jess2416]

bumpty bump...

[Cybill]

Amen...very well said.

[iheartsammy]

wow, I never looked at this thread! I love it :D

[AnimalLoverCatRescuer]

Wow this is such a great thread. This should be copied and posted on every forum that exists because some of them are so mean! In another forum (a cat one) I am a part of, half the things people say on here they would be kicked off for on there!

I think one big problem is that people tend to forget that we aren't talking face to face. We cannot see the other persons immediate reaction to something we say to know what to say next. If we need to immediately clear up what we meant, or to laugh to show it's a joke, or whatever. People forget this stuff, and they come across in the wrong way making others upset and feeling bad.

Another thing I think is totally rude and can't stand is the smilie with a box of popcorn. When someone asks a "stupid" question and a few people reply with just that smilie...showing they know the person asked something dumb and they are about to get flamed...Maybe I take that one the wrong way, in which case is a good example of the 2nd paragraph I just wrote, but I just think that is so rude.

:popcorn: <--- this guy I mean

[Buddy'sParents]

lf the things people say on here they would be kicked off for on there!

I think one big problem is that people tend to forget that we aren't talking face to face. We cannot see the other persons immediate reaction to something we say to know what to say next. If we need to immediately clear up what we meant, or to laugh to show it's a joke, or whatever. People forget this stuff, and they come across in the wrong way making others upset and feeling bad.

Another thing I think is totally rude and can't stand is the smilie with a box of popcorn. When someone asks a "stupid" question and a few people reply with just that smilie...showing they know the person asked something dumb and they are about to get flamed...Maybe I take that one the wrong way, in which case is a good example of the 2nd paragraph I just wrote, but I just think that is so rude.

:popcorn: <--- this guy I mean


Couldn't agree more with you. You'll find that there are many who do this purposefully... it's not cool. But I suppose they get enjoyment out of it.

I am all for jokes, though, just when the time is appropriate.

[ToscasMom]

I do have a suggestion for the experienced people who find themselves answering the same question over and over and over for newbees. This can be frustrating. I am a computer person so I find myself in the same boat with another subject. So, when somebody asks me how to speed up their computer, for example, I whip out a prewritten previously massaged answer and then I cut and paste it. That way I don't find myself chewing my knuckles writing this again. It really works and it takes a few minutes instead of all the time it takes to write the same thing over and over and over again.

I'm a doggie newbee, haven't had a dog in decades, so I'm sure I have asked some questions that have really simple answers, ad nauseum. A good ole cut and paste can go a long way to keep experienced people from secretly groaning, "Oh no. Not again". The same goes for those subjects a newbee asks that opens a can of disagreement worms. It gives the poster a chance not to react personally while still offering the Pro or the Con to the opinions offered.

Just my two cents for what it's worth.

[DemitriousK]

As a computer person myself I know EXACTLY what you mean (No, I dont have time right now to come and see why your X wont do Y... I have my own computer work to do!). And, yes, It would be very useful for the chaz people to put together a FAQ or a WIKI and simply link appropriately

[ToscasMom]

I can tell you've been there. lol. How about, I also don't have time to do it for "free". How about, when they not only want free help, tie you up for hours, but they aren't willing to bother doing the work you give them EXPLICIT instructions for? How about I hop a plane and help ya out. lol. I find it amazing the trouble someone can get in with their computer but how they would rather just let their computer die than take the time to follow some simple spelled out procedures and download a couple of simple programs and run them. You?
Did you notice that being a software engineer and/or computer security person online is worse than being a doctor?

[DemitriousK]

Yea, I know your pain. Even worse when you're a SOFTWARE engineer and at family reunions all people want to talk to you about is which computer they should buy. Like we care :)

But seriously, I got 3 letters for you: V N C

even works with a firewall if you look into it. Punch a port in your FW for your PC, setup the client in listening mode on your PC, have their PC running a VNC server, they right click the vnc icon and click "add client" or some such. Give them your IP, and then POW you're controlling their computer.

The computer equivalent of having your dog on a training lead :)

"Here's just enough freedom to get in trouble, but not so much that I cant give you a good yank"

[ToscasMom]

Actually I configure computers for friends pretty often, mainly because I am afraid they will go to circuit city and get talked into a dog, scuse the pun. You know, no Ram, celeron processor, such a deal!

I shy away from remote access, people are funny. Soon as something goes wrong, guess where the pointed finger goes? Right up your benevolent nose.

[jess2416]

bumpty bump....read people read...

[~Jessie~]

This is a really great thread! I'm glad I wandered off into this section :D

[Angel Chicken]

Bumpity bump bump bump


Everyone needs to read this, especially after what has been going on the past few days!

[skyeboxer]

Thanks for bringing that up Angel. I never caught it before. An awesome first post by Demetrious and now I guess I'll get myself a beer and some nibbles and settle down to Let The Games Begin!

[Road dog]

I've got to hand it to Demetrious.
I came here after leaving another forum which shall remain nameless, because it wasn't fun anymore. The place was becomming rife with arguments, fights, personal attacks, flames, people forming alliances and ganging up on one another, etc...

I'm not a vet, a trainer, or a professional in the canine field in any capacity. I'm a truck driver who happens to have and love three dogs. I want to talk about my dogs, hear other people talk about THEIR dogs, exchange advice, and basicly enjoy the virtual company of other dog folks. Life's too short to spend it getting spit on by people you don't even know. I hope that I'll have a better experiance here.

[RD]

I move that this thread be stickied in the Fire Hydrant again. I'd like to see it read more often.

[Momof2Pups]

^^^^Hmm. . .yeah, I don't think people are reading it really as much as we should if it's stuck down here. . .

[Julie]

I just read this for the first time.
Thanks RD for bringing it up again....
I had seen it before, just didn't read it.....
I think more should read this and apply the knowledge they learn!

[Renee750il]

There have been requests to move this back to the forefront for a bit and it seems like a good idea at the time ;)

[~Jessie~]

^^^ I think it's a great idea to have this in fire hydrant :D

[Lizmo]

Oh wow I just read that for the first time! :) Very good post! Very very very true Dem :D Thanks!

[Momof2Pups]

Yay, it's back! :D

[Oski]

I've got to hand it to Demetrious.
I came here after leaving another forum which shall remain nameless, because it wasn't fun anymore. The place was becomming rife with arguments, fights, personal attacks, flames, people forming alliances and ganging up on one another, etc...

I'm not a vet, a trainer, or a professional in the canine field in any capacity. I'm a truck driver who happens to have and love three dogs. I want to talk about my dogs, hear other people talk about THEIR dogs, exchange advice, and basicly enjoy the virtual company of other dog folks. Life's too short to spend it getting spit on by people you don't even know. I hope that I'll have a better experiance here.

I also came here after actually being banned from another site because I was being cornered by three of the oldest members on the site that had their ties with the site administrator. I am really glad that this issue was posted because negative alliances that are formed push people away that really dont need to deal with social problems, they are trying to deal with pet problems. Hopefully we will have success here!! ;)

[jess2416]

This needs to be bumped up and read some more....

[Gustav]

Yep, a little bit of hypocrisy for ya...

[DemitriousK]

I never said that I'm not a hpocrite from time to time. We all are :)

[Buddy'sParents]

Weird how when the tables turn on someone they don't find what they do to others funny anymore. Hmm.....

[Brattina88]

**achoo**

:lol-sign:

[Buddy'sParents]

Bless you, Brattina. ;)

[Renee750il]

Any present disgruntlement with Demitrious doesn't negate the truth of his original post.

[blue]

I am fully gruntled, at the disgruntled.

[Dizzy]

Weird how when the tables turn on someone they don't find what they do to others funny anymore. Hmm.....

I don't understand this comment. Could you elaborate please :)

[Momof2Pups]

Glad to see this bumped up. Needless to say, we all need a reminder of this once in a while.

[Brattina88]

Bless you, Brattina. ;)

:D lol, thanks!

[Buddy'sParents]

:D lol, thanks!

you're welcome. :D I would have handed you a tissue, but I didn't have any at the moment, but here ya go *hands tissue*. ;)

[jess2416]

BUMP....

Maybe someone should go back over this again....

[Dizzy]

BUMP....

Maybe someone should go back over this again....


Anyone in particular :D

[jess2416]

Anyone in particular :D

Maybe, maybe not...who knows ??

[blue]

OK OK I reread it, jeeze.

[jess2416]

OK OK I reread it, jeeze.

LOL, if it makes you feel any better I did too ;) although you were the last one on my mind about reading it....

[littlephoenix]

but also now days anyone wanting a little information about animals or dogs can do a quick google search and the answer will be right there within seconds, so of course forums such as this help all of us as its more personal, but also the web in general i think its great for everyone in every which way :)

[jess2416]

Bump Bump Bump Bump...............