Must be Titled

[GSDlover_4ever]

I have been thinking about this, lately. Why do people insist that a dog must have titles to be bred. Many dogs are exellent workers but do not have titles. For example, most police dogs are not titled, but are AMAZING working dogs. Hondo's father has NO titled what-so-ever, because he is too busy finding people. Why do people insist on having your dog titled? Just wondering.

[fillyone]

For most dogs and breeds having titles is the only way to prove breed worthiness.

[bubbatd]

To me . breeding 40 years ago , it was more important to have good backgrounds and health checking. Today, I do feel that breeders really have to be checked out as to RESPONSIBLE breeding. There are so many more people owning dogs..If you want to go with these breedings.. at least get health checks for a pet quality dog. If wanting a show possibility ... you have to go all the way with AKC recognized dogs.

[MomOf7]

Reputable breeders breed untitled dogs all the time. They may very well be great producers of what they are looking for in thier line.
Only the breeders involved could speculate on that though.

[wolfsoul]

Titles on individual dogs don't really mean anything to me. Visa doesn't have her championship -- however, she could easily get it. That right there tells me that just because a dog doesn't have a title, doesn't mean it couldn't get it. However, when looking for a reputable breeder, if none of the dogs are titled, that tells me something right there. Breeding an untitled dog I don't mind -- it's when none of your breeding dogs are titled. It tells me that your dogs are just poor workers, or maybe you aren't enough "into dogs." I think a good breeder is involved.

I'm browsing potential studs for Visa's third litter right now, and to be honest I am looking at titles. Less working titles usually means a lower drive dog (she can only be bred to low drive dogs). A CGN or CGC shows a potentially stable dog. An obedience title might show a handler-focused dog. Championships don't mean anything to me -- a championship is nothing for a Belgian. Almost any Belgian can be a champion. A BIS or BISS does speak to me, however. I wouldn't mind breeding to a non-champion, but I would require the stud to be atleast pointed so that I know it can atleast stand for a judge. I can see what I like in pictures, I don't need a championship to tell me if the dog looks nice, and I have several contacts who can look at the dog. But what is more important to me than titles, MUCH more importantly, is that the dog is suited to my bitch. I could breed Visa to the most titled dog out there, but I won't. I look for a dog that is low-drive, friendly, NOT SHY OR AGGRESSIVE, happy, calm, with health clearances, and a refined head.

What people really need to do is talk to people that have met the breeder and/or the dogs. I personally know many breeders who have dogs with several titles that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. I know breeders who are abusive to their dogs (and client dogs), who have puppies born with cleft palates and let them starve to death, breeders who have the most ugly dogs win championships because they pin their dogs against one another, who encourage irresponsible ownership, breeders producing shy dogs, breeders whose pups end up in shelters, breeders who have 8 litters a year without enough homes, etc. All of these breeders have dogs with several titles. Titles don't say much. You need to talk to people who know the breeder and know the dogs.

[ihartgonzo]

I totally agree with Jordan on this. Titles ARE a great thing, but they aren't everything. As far as herding dogs go, I'd much prefer a dog that works everyday & works well than a dog who is trialed occasionally, BUT I would still love to get a puppy from Herding Champion parents. Titles basically prove that the dog can perform, and is given recognition as performing at a high level. There is so much that breeders can say to exaggerate their breeding dogs abilities (such as "you should've seen my Border Collie bitch work those sheep in that field that one time, she ran around them with no training." and "you should see my Lab dog fetch a ball.")... their boasting does not necessarily mean that their dog is worth breeding and is an exceptional working dog. Titles should definitely be weighed with one-on-one observations of the parents working, which I think EVERYONE should do if it all possible. In general, though, I feel that anyone who really has an excellent working/show dog will at least prove their dog as competent in competition.

[MomOf7]

I totally agree with Jordan on this. Titles ARE a great thing, but they aren't everything. As far as herding dogs go, I'd much prefer a dog that works everyday & works well than a dog who is trialed occasionally, BUT I would still love to get a puppy from Herding Champion parents. Titles basically prove that the dog can perform, and is given recognition as performing at a high level. There is so much that breeders can say to exaggerate their breeding dogs abilities (such as "you should've seen my Border Collie bitch work those sheep in that field that one time, she ran around them with no training." and "you should see my Lab dog fetch a ball.")... their boasting does not necessarily mean that their dog is worth breeding and is an exceptional working dog. Titles should definitely be weighed with one-on-one observations of the parents working, which I think EVERYONE should do if it all possible. In general, though, I feel that anyone who really has an excellent working/show dog will at least prove their dog as competent in competition.
LOL @ my lab can fetch a ball! Someone I know of thinks thats quite an accomplishment! Let me see a duck or bird in its mouth then were talking!
(and not one all chewed up either):D

[ihartgonzo]

For real though, Momof7!!! I have heard that a lot, and I'm not even involved in Labs like you are. My favorite, which I hear way too much, is people bragging about their Border Collies nipping at kids and people. That neurotic behavior is such an accomplishment for the breed :rolleyes: totally breeding-worthy.

[stevinski]

Titles on individual dogs don't really mean anything to me. Visa doesn't have her championship -- however, she could easily get it. That right there tells me that just because a dog doesn't have a title, doesn't mean it couldn't get it. However, when looking for a reputable breeder, if none of the dogs are titled, that tells me something right there. Breeding an untitled dog I don't mind -- it's when none of your breeding dogs are titled. It tells me that your dogs are just poor workers, or maybe you aren't enough "into dogs." I think a good breeder is involved.

titles prove this, and i would only ever buy my future show prospect from a litter thats parents have titles, because just because the breeder says she could get it isnt good enough, its the proof that matters to an expecting buyer and to be honest i wouldnt buy from anyone who says their dog can get there championship, because i no that they arent as dedicated to their dogs as someone who has taken the time to title their dogs.

[Fran27]

I personally don't care much if my dogs have a nose too long or their back isn't just bent the right way... but I think health testing is important. At this time though, I don't see the point of breeding just to breed... which is the case of people who don't show... IMO. You can't better the breed if you can't even prove your dogs are a good specimen on the breed. But I don't think it's required for all dogs to be champions, just one of the parents is fine to me - if you find the perfect dog to breed with your champion and he/she wasn't showed, I don't see it as such a big deal... providing you know enough about the breed yourself.

[joce]

The average perosn does not ahvve a true"working " dog to prove their abilities so showing or competing in some sprort is the best way to show they are worthy to breed.

If a dog is a great herder and works out on the farm I don't care what it is I think that farmer has every right to breed it. But I also think to many people say their dog is a working dog when it really jsut site around(which happens a lot out here).

[whatszmatter]

Titles to me don't mean that much either, but I know the breeders I'm working with. They have a rep of producing the dogs with drives and intensity and health that I want. Just because they don't have titles doesn't mean that they aren't proven though. They prove their worthiness everyday working and I've seen that.

Another not so well known kennel (by me) that didn't have titles and I wasn't familiar with their dogs or what they produced, I would have to see that their dogs were proven somehow and for most people, titles that are easily recognizable are the best way to do that.

Just because a dog hasn't been titled in the traditional way doesn't mean they haven't been proven. But I wouldn't just take someone's word for it that their dogs could work or have stable temperments or are healthy, they have to prove it to me somehow.

[RD]

I totally agree with Jordan on this. Titles ARE a great thing, but they aren't everything. As far as herding dogs go, I'd much prefer a dog that works everyday & works well than a dog who is trialed occasionally, BUT I would still love to get a puppy from Herding Champion parents. Titles basically prove that the dog can perform, and is given recognition as performing at a high level. There is so much that breeders can say to exaggerate their breeding dogs abilities (such as "you should've seen my Border Collie bitch work those sheep in that field that one time, she ran around them with no training." and "you should see my Lab dog fetch a ball.")... their boasting does not necessarily mean that their dog is worth breeding and is an exceptional working dog. Titles should definitely be weighed with one-on-one observations of the parents working, which I think EVERYONE should do if it all possible. In general, though, I feel that anyone who really has an excellent working/show dog will at least prove their dog as competent in competition.
I absolutely agree regarding herding dogs. Most dogs that work ranches on a daily basis can out-herd trial dogs, but rarely do they get trialed because they are so busy working. They're almost always untitled, but they are some of the best workers and shouldn't be passed up just because they haven't won any trials. I notice a lot of pedigrees linebreeding on herding champions, and that's great, to win ISDS trials the dog has to be awesome. However, with everybody scrambling to breed to the champion, I think I would breed to an untitled ranch dog if only for diversity in the gene pool. Untitled dogs have a lot to offer and a lack of abbreviations before/after the dog's name doren't concern me if I can get my hands on the dog and see it work.

[BlackDog]

Every purebred dog breed has four dimensions to it that make it the breed it is; look, health, temperament, and ability. A responsible breeder will take into account all four of these dimensions before they breed. They will have a clear understanding of what these qualities are and why they are so important.

When I say *look* I’m referring to the physical appearance of the dog. Every breed of dog has a certain way it is suppose to look that is unique to it’s breed. The ideal specimen should have as many of these qualities as possible. How they keep track of what qualities each breed is suppose to have is through the dog’s breed standard. The breed standard outlines the qualities of the physical appearance of the breed. It also outlines the ideal temperament.

In regards to health, every breed has certain health problems that are common to it. Some have more than others because of multiple factors. The idea of breeding purebreds is to have the least amount of health problem possible, preferably none. Health testing is done on both parents, before breeding the litter, to determine if both dogs are free of genetic defects that could be passed on to the offspring. The breeder should also be familiar with at least four generations of the dog’s history; both parents. This is important when determining if there are any carriers of a disease in either parent’s history. Some defects skip over a generation. Health defect testing will only tell you if the dog has a defect, it doesn’t tell you if the dog is a carrier for a defect. By knowing the dog’s history, you can see if any of it’s relatives had any defects. If they did, it can tell you that the defect has skipped over one or more generations.

Temperament is another thing is impacts the breed and makes it unique. Every breed of dog has a slightly different temperament. Again, the idea is to breed dogs that come as close as possible to the breeds standard. This way, the dog will act the way it is said it’s suppose to act.

Ability means the dog can perform the function(s) that the breed was originally bred to do. Like a beagle being a good hunting dog, a golden retriever being good at retrieving and hunting, a border collie being good at herding, the mastiff being a good guard dog. Every breed has a reason it was bred for. It has an ability it is good at that makes it unique to every other breed. Some abilities are close to other breeds but each one is slightly different.

All of these four dimensions, put together, make up the breed you know and love. The catch is, all of these qualities must be worked for, through selective breeding. The founders of the breed made these qualities into the breed they are today, but it is through selecting breeding (picking out specimens that match the look, health, temperament, and ability of the breed) that maintain the breed’s uniqueness.

There are many types of breeders out there. Some breed only for health and temperament. Some breed only for look. Some breed only for ability. Some breed for ability and health. The list of possible combinations goes on and on. But the one thing all of these breeders are missing (the ones I just listed) is that they are not breeding for every dimension that the breed should have. So they are creating dogs that are only “half-pure” or “partial purebreds”. With every generation that goes on, that the breeder(s) do not breed for all four dimensions, the resulting litters become less and less like that of a purebred. Yes it is true, they will still technically have papers and be register able by the AKC, if both parents are purebred, but in reality they will not really be what they are suppose to be.
The quality of purebreds is not determined by the paper work, it is in how closely to the four dimensions the breeders breed them.

[Mach1girl]

I have been thinking about this, lately. Why do people insist that a dog must have titles to be bred. Many dogs are exellent workers but do not have titles. For example, most police dogs are not titled, but are AMAZING working dogs. Hondo's father has NO titled what-so-ever, because he is too busy finding people. Why do people insist on having your dog titled? Just wondering.
Im not even reading all the replies, but I personally think it is because they can make more money if they can have that piece of paper that shows a title!

Other then that, I dont believe they have got to be in 100% of the cases.

[Aussie Red]

I don't think my animals can read that they are titled or not. I know for a fact that there are breeders who can and do create false papers. It really isn't that hard to do. Akc does not follow up on breeding as they should unless it is brought to their attention. Also if brought up they don't always pull reg.
I'm a person who does not care about papers and I have bought pappered dog but never reg. with akc.
When it comes to herding dogs I want to see the parents and what they can do not their papers .
If any of you read "Whiskeys Story" then you know how he came to us and that he is not papered but he can and does outwork the best of the best and he has excelled at anything he has been taught to do.
His trainer has said to the entire class that she has never worked with a dog that was as intellegent as he is. The others who have their dogs there are infact in awe of how fast he gets a new task nailed down and so am I. I have never owned such an alert , smart and hard worker as him and I have had many.
As far as breed he is all acd 100% and is netured. According to AKC standards he is everything he should be with the eception of height , he is 2 inches over standard.This is because he was probably some ones bybred acd. I don't like byb"s but I don't like people who use dogs for money either.
So it's what ever you want. I know that I will never buy a registered dog again as I do not intend to show or breed them. There are too many dogs and cats needing homes now. I personally think that there should be limitations on breeders as to how many litters they can have in one year etc.
Shelters are full of purebred dogs who were papered too.

[Mach1girl]

Love that!!!"My dogs cannot read"! Lol...........

[elegy]

If wanting a show possibility ... you have to go all the way with AKC recognized dogs.

this is not true. there are other registries who recognize non-akc breeds. i guarantee if i were ever to buy a pit bull, there'd be conformation titles behind it, and the pit bull is not recognized by the akc.

i think titles are extremely important. i don't understand the whole argument of "she could have a title in a heartbeat if i took the time to show her". so take the time! prove that she's as great as you say. show that you cared enough to put the time, effort, and money into it.

i think the rules bend with true working dogs (i'd still want to see health certs on them though), but the vast majority of dogs being bred have never worked a day in their lives.

[Saje]

I think they should be proven somehow but it doesn't necessarily have to be with titles. Working dogs should be able to work like Scarlette's dogs. All are great sledders but they never step inside a show ring.

[doberkim]

Icant agree more with what elegy said -

there are VERY FEW true working dogs left in the US that can use the excuse that they "work" so they have proven themselves. If they do, congrats - but I will still want to see the rest of the picture (proper health testing, proper structure, and a solid temperament correct for the breed).

other than that, its excuses - Saying a dog COULD do this and COULD do that is like saying well, shes CUTE and shes a good pet, and my vet says shes healthy because they examine her every year and shes up to date on her vaccines - that isn't health testing, that isn't testing the temperament, and that isn't proof of proper structure.

Titles are important because they provide us with proof the dog is what it should be. It's not just something simple someone does - these titles require training, they require an investment from the owner, and yes, they require money.

If you think your dog is structurally correct, get out there and prove it. Get independent evaluations of the dogs conformation.

If you think your dog has a solid temperament, get out there and prove it. And no, I don't think a CGC is proof that your dog is breed worthy - many breeds have breed-specific temperament tests. There is the ATTS, there are other exams including therapy dog tests that show what your dog is made up.

If you think your dog is a working dog, then get out there and show me. I can tell everyone that my dog walks nicely on leash, sits when I tell him to, and hangs out nicely around the house. But he is a working breed and should have a working temperament. Saying my dog "COULD" do it if he tried - well, it's excuses. If they COULD - then DO it.

If you can't afford these things, then you can't afford breeding, IMNSHO.

If y ou are breeding to better a breed - how do you know you are bettering it if you don't find out?

I own a working breed. A dog with a working temperament, structure that should enable them to work, and should have enough drive and such to get him to wherever he wants to go. I can say my dog could do this, that and the other - but the fact is, until you DO it, you just don't know. There are enough wonderful pets in shelters and rescues across the nation - we don't need more pets.

If you are going to breed, do it to make your breed better. Do it to improve structure, temperament, health and working ability. I see no excuse that I would accept for why a dog doesn't have all these things in the respective breeds, except that the owner doesn't feel like it or the dog cannot cut it. And both of those, to me - mean you shouldn't be breeding.

[GSDlover_4ever]

I absolutely agree regarding herding dogs. Most dogs that work ranches on a daily basis can out-herd trial dogs, but rarely do they get trialed because they are so busy working. They're almost always untitled, but they are some of the best workers and shouldn't be passed up just because they haven't won any trials. I notice a lot of pedigrees linebreeding on herding champions, and that's great, to win ISDS trials the dog has to be awesome. However, with everybody scrambling to breed to the champion, I think I would breed to an untitled ranch dog if only for diversity in the gene pool. Untitled dogs have a lot to offer and a lack of abbreviations before/after the dog's name doren't concern me if I can get my hands on the dog and see it work.

That is exactly my point. There are still many working dogs in the US and many dont have time to get titles. Some are out with S&R, herding, police work ect, and IMO getting titled does not fit into their busy schedule. I would rather SEE the dog work with my own eyes than reading it on a paper.

[Gempress]

I think that when it comes to show dogs, titles are very important. How else can you prove that a dog is good at showing? With working dogs, as long as the dog is a genuine, good working dog and not just "from working lines", I don't think it's so important. It's pretty simple to tell a real working dog from one that isn't.

You see that a lot where I live. This is ranching country, and livestock guardian dogs and herding dogs are extremely popular. The majority of them are untitled, but that doesn't make a difference in their ability.

[summitview]

i think titles are extremely important. i don't understand the whole argument of "she could have a title in a heartbeat if i took the time to show her". so take the time! prove that she's as great as you say. show that you cared enough to put the time, effort, and money into it.

Well said. My feelings as well. I've met plenty of BYB pet breeders who give the whole "oh she could get that title in a heartbeat!" load of manure.

[wolfsoul]

I think that when it comes to show dogs, titles are very important. How else can you prove that a dog is good at showing?
There are many ways to tell. Ask to see the online registry database. My dog doesn't have her championship, but if you look at the online database or the Belgian statistic page for 2005, you'll see that she was the #19 Belgian in Canada last year (from just one show), beating 25 dogs and earning a total of 5 points (I said 4 before, but it's five lol).

I hate how everyone says titles should be on a dog to "PROVE" things. While titles are great, they show you are involved with your dog and that your dog gets out there...They don't prove alot. My dog was a total freak for her CGN and she passed. Championships prove nothing unless it is a common breed and an Am CH rather than a Can CH. Some of the ugliest dogs I know are champions. Several people hosting herding instinct certifications will certify a dog that chases. Some dogs are entered in hundreds of trials before they actually earn a title.

Like I've said a hundred times before -- they only way to "prove" that the dog is a good working/show dog is to see it in action yourself and/or talk to several people who know the dog. Titles are easier to earn than most people think.

[GSDlover_4ever]

There are many ways to tell. Ask to see the online registry database. My dog doesn't have her championship, but if you look at the online database or the Belgian statistic page for 2005, you'll see that she was the #19 Belgian in Canada last year (from just one show), beating 25 dogs and earning a total of 5 points (I said 4 before, but it's five lol).

I hate how everyone says titles should be on a dog to "PROVE" things. While titles are great, they show you are involved with your dog and that your dog gets out there...They don't prove alot. My dog was a total freak for her CGN and she passed. Championships prove nothing unless it is a common breed and an Am CH rather than a Can CH. Some of the ugliest dogs I know are champions. Several people hosting herding instinct certifications will certify a dog that chases. Some dogs are entered in hundreds of trials before they actually earn a title.

Like I've said a hundred times before -- they only way to "prove" that the dog is a good working/show dog is to see it in action yourself and/or talk to several people who know the dog. Titles are easier to earn than most people think.

Well said!!! :)

[BlackDog]

There are many ways to tell. Ask to see the online registry database. My dog doesn't have her championship, but if you look at the online database or the Belgian statistic page for 2005, you'll see that she was the #19 Belgian in Canada last year (from just one show), beating 25 dogs and earning a total of 5 points (I said 4 before, but it's five lol).

I hate how everyone says titles should be on a dog to "PROVE" things. While titles are great, they show you are involved with your dog and that your dog gets out there...They don't prove alot. My dog was a total freak for her CGN and she passed. Championships prove nothing unless it is a common breed and an Am CH rather than a Can CH. Some of the ugliest dogs I know are champions. Several people hosting herding instinct certifications will certify a dog that chases. Some dogs are entered in hundreds of trials before they actually earn a title.

Like I've said a hundred times before -- they only way to "prove" that the dog is a good working/show dog is to see it in action yourself and/or talk to several people who know the dog. Titles are easier to earn than most people think.

That is only true with rare breeds. Yes, it is easier for a rare breed dog to earn a championship titles than, say, a golden retriever. But what you need to do to make up for the lack of competition is go farther than earning the dogs championship title. Go to some more well known shows where the competition is harder. That is when you will really test your dog out.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Wolfsoul, can you tell me where you can see this data base that has this information?

Is it just for Belgians, or can you check other breeds that show in the CKC rings?

[wolfsoul]

That is only true with rare breeds.
I agree that it's much easier with rare breeds, but even common breeds that aren't the best looking can get their Canadian Championship. I refrain from saying American championship because it IS hard for a common breed to get an American championship. In Canada, you don't need majors. All you need is ten points. Shelties are VERY common in the showring, and I personally know one that isn't a very good example of the breed --- she has been entered in atleast 20 or 30 shows within the past two years. She doesn't earn a point in most of them, but occasionally there aren't alot of females and she'll take Winners Bitch, giving her a point or two. In two years of showing with many many shows, she has managed to get 8 points -- only needs two more, and she'll ger her Canadian Championship. She's never been group placed, she's never even taken breed. Does this mean she is a good example of her breed? Alot of dogs will get their Canadian championship in one weekend. Does that make them a good example of their breed?

Wolfsoul, can you tell me where you can see this data base that has this information?

Is it just for Belgians, or can you check other breeds that show in the CKC rings?
There is a database on Dogs in Canada -- problem is, you have to be a member. I'm not sure if that means you need to be a CKC member or not. Visa's breeder always just says "I'll check the database for you.." LOL. I've never actually seen it myself.

I've seen statistics pages for several breeds on which dogs are currently in the standings for that year. Usually they are just personal pages so it can take some searching.

[summitview]

All I see is excuses, excuses, excuses. :rolleyes:

[wolfsoul]

All I see is excuses, excuses, excuses. :rolleyes:
What does that mean? :confused:

[GSDlover_4ever]

What does that mean? :confused:

I have no idea.

[doberkim]

There are many ways to tell. Ask to see the online registry database. My dog doesn't have her championship, but if you look at the online database or the Belgian statistic page for 2005, you'll see that she was the #19 Belgian in Canada last year (from just one show), beating 25 dogs and earning a total of 5 points (I said 4 before, but it's five lol).

I hate how everyone says titles should be on a dog to "PROVE" things. While titles are great, they show you are involved with your dog and that your dog gets out there...They don't prove alot. My dog was a total freak for her CGN and she passed. Championships prove nothing unless it is a common breed and an Am CH rather than a Can CH. Some of the ugliest dogs I know are champions. Several people hosting herding instinct certifications will certify a dog that chases. Some dogs are entered in hundreds of trials before they actually earn a title.

Like I've said a hundred times before -- they only way to "prove" that the dog is a good working/show dog is to see it in action yourself and/or talk to several people who know the dog. Titles are easier to earn than most people think.

no offense, and i cant think of any way to phrase it but this -
if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor).

if its so easy, why havent you done it?



i agree, i see a lot of excuses. excuses why people dont get them - no time, no money. excuses that they dont mean anything. excuses that people can buy titles, that my bitch could do this, my dog could do that, if only this, if if if if if.

i dont buy breeding based on a whole slew of what if's, if only's, and i could if i really wanted to's.

[ihartgonzo]

"if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor)."

Jordan can answer this, but I'll help...

Visa has not been bred three times. This is her first breeding, she was simply bred 3 times in one heat. Multiple breedings in one heat is not uncommon at all.

Visa has earned points in show, made group placings as well as BOBs, and is near her championship. She has also competed in Obedience & Agility.

I can't speak for Visa's Mom, but I feel that it's much more important that Visa is a true all-around dog than simply being a show Champion, or simply having Obedience titles or whatever. Jordan works her butt off exhibiting her dog, as far as I know there is NOOO laziness involved. A perspective buyer should meet the parents of their puppy, as said before, as that is just as important (actually, much more important) as a title. I *think* Visa's breeding is more about timing, and this is the perfect timing for Jordan to raise a healthy litter of pups. It's not like she hasn't done a thing with Visa and is simply making her own assumptions about how nice her structure is, or how well she can peform, or how sound her temperament is. If she made no effort to exhibit Visa, I would totally disapprove, but I think she's a great breeder because she really has done a lot with her girl, and has ensured that the stud has also been proven as worthy of being bred.

[Aussie Red]

Attempt at being funny Whiskeys Tittlehttp://img472.imageshack.us/img472/5919/9102317528877632905bu.jpg andhttp://img125.imageshack.us/img125/197/9102307728877600402oz.jpg

[doberkim]

she clearly states -

"I'm browsing potential studs for Visa's third litter right now"

no multiple breedings to the same male is not uncommon- but that is not what she says.

her website states she has been in two agility fun matches, and no obedience matches/trials as of yet. she has her HIC and CGN. she has 5 points (how many does canada need for a CH?). She has plans for more agility this year, as well as a tracking test and more herding.

Why the rush? Why not breed her after she has done these things? She's young, there is no rush...

[wolfsoul]

Thanks Erica. :) I'm glad somebody

no offense, and i cant think of any way to phrase it but this -
if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor).

if its so easy, why havent you done it?


This is Visa's first litter. HIC and CGN ARE titles. Anything that is placed before/after a name is a title.

The reason she does not have her Can CH yet is simple. While she has been entered in several sanction matches (and placed very well, she is always BOB and group placed), she has only been entered in one point show. She took BOB and a Group 4th, beating 25 dogs and taking a total of five points. After this show, however, she was handled by an abusive handler (who was recently disqualified for kicking one of her clinet's dogs down a hill), and became terrified of shows. We were unable to do point shows after this for fear that she would be disqualified (which would exclude us from all CKC events, and considering I am the treasurer of the district kennel club, that would suck big time). So I have been working my butt off both last year and this year so that she will no longer be afraid to show. She was entered in a show (for today actually) but is still in Alberta being bred, so I handled a different dog instead. There are no more shows she can compete in this year as she is due to have puppies the day after the next one, will have 2 week old puppies the next one, and then won't have her coat back until December. During this time I am going to practice some new training methods to prepare her more for the ring, as well as attend more sanction matches. So she will recieve her CH next year instead of this year.

It isn't a "Well I know she can get it, so what's the point" kind of an excuse. Or a "I don't have the time or money." It's for the welfare of my dog and my breeding program that she is not disqualified for something that she could so easily get on looks and movement alone -- if ring temperment weren't taken in to play, she would be finished. It's like running an agility trial before the dog knows what is expected of it. Visa loved shows before that handler came along. A rarity in a Belgian. I want to bring that back, I want to keep and maintain it. I didn't show her again ast year just like I wouldn't throw a dog in a pool when it can't swim.

And as another example of an ugly dog getting points --- the dog I handled today. She's skin and bones (supposed to have tight skin over muscle and a nice layer of fat), easty-westy (one of her legs is longer than the other which doesn't help), has a hook tail that she carries over her back (it's supposed to be straight down, carried half way when moving) , her planes are completely uneven and non-parellel, her eyes are round (supposed to be almond), her ears are too big, she has a cowlick on her nose, her fur is thick on her withers and rear, but is practically bald inbetween, she has a sparse, wavy coat (supposed to be straight), she has 40 teeth (supposed to have 42)...And she has points towards her CH, and will be finished within a couple of years.

A dog not having a championship is not the end of the world, and having a championship does not mean your dog is a good example of it's breed. If you KNOW the breed well enough, you should be able to tell by looking at it whether or not it's show material. If you don't maybe you should research the breed a bit more and actually consider other things, like health and temperment before buying a certain breed rather than relying on championships alone. I know that my dog is a good example of what the breed should look like, breeders know my dog is a good example of what a Belgian should look like, and I will enter her in another show when I feel she is ready, not just because "oh my god she is being bred so obviously she needs to have her CH." It's a good credential, especially when buying from a breeder out of your area, but it isn't an accurate :know-all" of how a dog truly looks and behaves.

[wolfsoul]

she clearly states -

"I'm browsing potential studs for Visa's third litter right now"

no multiple breedings to the same male is not uncommon- but that is not what she says.

her website states she has been in two agility fun matches, and no obedience matches/trials as of yet. she has her HIC and CGN. she has 5 points (how many does canada need for a CH?). She has plans for more agility this year, as well as a tracking test and more herding.

Why the rush? Why not breed her after she has done these things? She's young, there is no rush...

Her third litter won't be done for another three years.

I have already explained "the rush." This is not my breeding. This is Visa's breeder's breeding. Visa is NOT my dog, she is co-owned and won't be signed in to my name until after her first litter is born (in September).

Oh,and when looking at my site, remember that it's not updated LOL. I can't do any of the shows we have listed for this year. Puppy reasons, and I lost my ride for the show on the island. But, like I said, I learned some new techniques to have her ready for the ring again, and I'd like to try them out before going at 'er. :)

[BlackDog]

I agree that it's much easier with rare breeds, but even common breeds that aren't the best looking can get their Canadian Championship. I refrain from saying American championship because it IS hard for a common breed to get an American championship. In Canada, you don't need majors. All you need is ten points. Shelties are VERY common in the showring, and I personally know one that isn't a very good example of the breed --- she has been entered in atleast 20 or 30 shows within the past two years. She doesn't earn a point in most of them, but occasionally there aren't alot of females and she'll take Winners Bitch, giving her a point or two. In two years of showing with many many shows, she has managed to get 8 points -- only needs two more, and she'll ger her Canadian Championship. She's never been group placed, she's never even taken breed. Does this mean she is a good example of her breed? Alot of dogs will get their Canadian championship in one weekend. Does that make them a good example of their breed?


There is a database on Dogs in Canada -- problem is, you have to be a member. I'm not sure if that means you need to be a CKC member or not. Visa's breeder always just says "I'll check the database for you.." LOL. I've never actually seen it myself.

I've seen statistics pages for several breeds on which dogs are currently in the standings for that year. Usually they are just personal pages so it can take some searching.

I was only referring to American dog shows.

[GSDlover_4ever]

no offense, and i cant think of any way to phrase it but this -
if titles are so easy to earn - how come your bitch is being bred (for the third time i think?) and has no titles? i see she has two certificates (herding instinct, and canine good citizen/neighbor).

if its so easy, why havent you done it?



i agree, i see a lot of excuses. excuses why people dont get them - no time, no money. excuses that they dont mean anything. excuses that people can buy titles, that my bitch could do this, my dog could do that, if only this, if if if if if.

i dont buy breeding based on a whole slew of what if's, if only's, and i could if i really wanted to's.

Hmm... Ok I have a few excuses as to why some dogs dont have titles. One is too busy finding people who have been kidnapped or lost. The other one, halfway around the world is finding people buried under the snow. One is patroling the streets to keep YOUR streets safe. The other is protective the livestock from other predators. One is too busy demoing all over the world. I can keep going all day. Everything is not all cut and dry as you think. If you want to call them excuses then so be it, but everyone situation is is different.

WolfSoul, I agree with everything you said.

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Just because a dog can do it's job, does not make it breeding worthy (IMO). So my ACD can herd and he excell's at schutzhund so should I breed him just because of that? No, he needs a full heath check first, the breeder already does PRA and BAER before her pups leave for new homes but he still would need his hips and elbows done at the age of two. I personally have no problem with a dog being bred if it has strong lines and has had all the right health tests done. *just my two cents* :D

[moe]

titles dont play a big part in my opinion of a dog, reason for this here in the UK we are ONLY this year able to make a dog in my breed up to CH as CC's have only this year been on offer within my breed working titles are also not on offer although I beleive the breed club is trying to make it possible in the future, there are many dogs that could in real terms be CH's but due to red tape its not possible for them to become it yet, maybe in the future once CC's have been on offer for some time and CH's become the norm, I will have a different view, until then I will continue looking at the actual dogs in question not their titles, if they have got ALL the health clearances, if the temperment is correct for the breed, if they show well, and if they also work well, if they have produced well in the past etc, these are at the moment my concern.

Mo

[doberkim]

you all seem to have a comprehension problem, or seem to be unable to actuallY READ what people have said.

wolfsoul, not having a canadian CH doesn't excuse you from having no titles whatsoever, including performance ones.

the CGC/CGN is NOT a title - it is a certification. the AKC/CKC are clear on this.
The HIC is exactly that - a herding instinct certification.

Just being able to put it behind the name does not mean it's a title. TDI stuff is also not a title, it is a certification.

GSDlover, again, you haven't read anything. Is wolfsoul doing these things with her dog that prevent her from titling her before breeding?

the MAJORITY OF DOGS in north america are doing NOTHING of the sort that would prevent them from being titled before reproducing.

[whatszmatter]

Thanks Erica. :) I'm glad somebody


This is Visa's first litter. HIC and CGN ARE titles. Anything that is placed before/after a name is a title.


I don't really want to get into this too much, BUT, HIC and CGN are most defineatly NOT nor ever will be considered TITLES. They are certificates, nothing more. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone that has gottent these certificates, but to say they PROVE anything about the breedability of your dog or that they have titles is completely bogus.

and HIC is nothing more than a dog showing interest in livestock, there is NO working, there is not intensity needed to be shown, there is nothing but interest that needs to be shown, that's it nothing more. Therefore it is not much of a test and will never be considered a title.

a CGC/CGN is also just a certificate. It is fun for people to do and shows that you do something besides watch your dog eat and sleep. Again, nothing is being tested in any real sort of way. Small temperment tests with bicycles and people, but but there are no real tests being done, the dogs intensity to herd, to work all day, etc are not tested any in sort of way whatsoever.

To call these two very basic introductory fun things for people to do with their dogs a title is a slap in the face to everyone that has put in the time and dedication to earn a title with their dog.

your dog may or may not be able to work, i don't know i've never seen it, but please do not confuse these certificates with actual titles, they are thousands of miles apart.

[wolfsoul]

wolfsoul, not having a canadian CH doesn't excuse you from having no titles whatsoever, including performance ones.

I do not need to be excused for anything --- like I said before, this is NOT my litter. Visa will not be bred under MY name until the year after next year, by which time she will have show, agility, tracking, and obedience titles, and since we are bringing flyball, rally-o, flying disc, and other sports to the district through the kennel club, she will probably be titled in those as well. But, like I said before --- I don't need titles to "prove" anything. If you want to see the working ability and drive of a dog, go look at the dog yourself. All a title does is say that your dog has competed in a sport. It doesn't say it's good at it. If you are truly interested in a breed you will have joined a discussion group about them or atleast talked to several breeders. Basically any breeder in my breed's main discussion group knows about my dog (her line, temperment, working ability, health, etc). Many of them have met my dog. The same will go for any other dog.

to say they PROVE anything about the breedability of your dog or that they have titles is completely bogus.
Once AGAIN, titles or "certificications" DO NOT PROVE the breedability of a dog, and by saying that I'M saying that about my own dog is completely insane, as I've been fighting against using titles as an accurate way of determining a dog's breedability this entire thread. Titles do not make your dog breedable. Just because my dog has her HIC and CGN does not make her breedable. The only thing that makes your dog breedable is health, temperment, working ability, and conformation. Titles do not PROVE that your dog has good health, temperment, working ability, and conformation. Nowhere in this thread am I saying that titles are a bad thing. Titles are a great thing for a breeding dog to have. It shows that the breeder is involved with his/her dog. But it does not "prove" anything, and nothing should HAVE to be proved -- if you get your information from an accurate source, you will know whether or not the dog has good health, temperment, working ability, and conformation. Titles should not be relied on for that.

[whatszmatter]

so you're going to just pick the part that isn't worded very carefully and say I was trying to say that you said since you had a HIC and CGN that proved your dogs breedability??? I guess you missed the whole point in the thread that was having HIC or CGN certificates are not titles that you claim them to be.

you seemed to put them out there as if you had achieved titles with your dog or you're co-owned dog, it doesn't matter. I was just saying they aren't titles

[wolfsoul]

Sorry if I misunderstood -- it's just that you said "to say they PROVE anything" as if I had said it. ;)

I guess I just get so annoyed the thought of people thinking that titles prove anything because I know or know of soooo many breeders whose dogs look AWESOME on their website. Their dogs have their CH and multiple titles, they do all these different working things and sports, and so people think they are a good breeder. But I know these breeders are not good. I know that alot of them abuse their dogs, I know alot of them are producing unhealthy dogs, some of them are negligent, some of them have aggressive dogs, etc. I have a million horror stories about breeders that people think are great. I used to think titles proved something. But when I got into the dog world and I met the breeders and I met their dogs and what they were producing, I realised that I was very very wrong. Titles don't tell you that a breeder will let their puppies starve to death when they are born with a cleft palate. So sorry if I am very defensive -- I have just seen so much bad happen in my relatively short amount of time in the dog world, and alot of it revolves around perfectly titled dogs.

[GSDlover_4ever]

Sorry if I misunderstood -- it's just that you said "to say they PROVE anything" as if I had said it. ;)

I guess I just get so annoyed the thought of people thinking that titles prove anything because I know or know of soooo many breeders whose dogs look AWESOME on their website. Their dogs have their CH and multiple titles, they do all these different working things and sports, and so people think they are a good breeder. But I know these breeders are not good. I know that alot of them abuse their dogs, I know alot of them are producing unhealthy dogs, some of them are negligent, some of them have aggressive dogs, etc. I have a million horror stories about breeders that people think are great. I used to think titles proved something. But when I got into the dog world and I met the breeders and I met their dogs and what they were producing, I realised that I was very very wrong. Titles don't tell you that a breeder will let their puppies starve to death when they are born with a cleft palate. So sorry if I am very defensive -- I have just seen so much bad happen in my relatively short amount of time in the dog world, and alot of it revolves around perfectly titled dogs.

Very true!!! I think titles bring MORE stress and abuse into the dog world. People get so wound up about "show dogs" that they get "upset" when they have one born with a diformity and deem them not worthy of life and abuse them. Competition brings out the worse of people.

[JFrick]

Very true!!! I think titles bring MORE stress and abuse into thr dog world. People get so wound up about "sho dogs" that they get "upset" when they have one born with a diformity and deem them not worthy of life and abuse them. Competition brings out the worse of people.

:) Competition also brings out greed....

[Aussie Red]

Titles are paper. I have seen and known " reputible Breeders " too and believe me what goes on behind the scenes is sick. Titled animals end up abused just as much and do end up in shelters too! Back in the Eighties I paid well for a dog $ 1500.00 , parents both had papers enough to cover the wall. Akc champions. Health tested , genetic etc.
Paid a trainer to work with me and the pup for two years. Although the animal was extremely loving and a great pet that was it . He just did not get the fact he needed to follow in parents footsteps. At three years of age found to have seizures and other health issues so my thought is it just happens.
People have petigrees too .... does not mean they are perfect.

[AmberwayGSD]

In my opinion a dog should have a title prior to breeding.My Pups Dam has her HGH and her Sire has A SchH 1.My dog will be doing SchH and German Shows.Pretty much any breed can get a HIC,to me it is not a title same as cgn or cgc.

[fillyone]

I would like to say that the titles I spoke of in my reply are working/performance titles and not just conformation titles.

[Julie]

I am not speaking to anyone specific, but I see alot of emphasis being put on showing, titles, pedigree, especially titles. And degrading an accomplishment like a certificate as if it is a worthless piece of $hit.

Well I know first hand the work and training it takes to get a "certified" dog. Rocket is certified with the WVPCA, she is certified in tracking, narcotic detection, apprehension, and handler protection. She went through rigorous training and testing to qualify as a k9 patrol dog, yet she has NO titles.......hmmmmmmmm. AKC doesn't recognize her training or accomplishments....but I sure do!!

She cost the county more money than you would care to guess. But in the short time she has been on patrol, she has more than paid for herself in drugs off the streets, and money that was confiscated from drug related deals. She has found drugs in the homes of those on "home confinement", and she has given more demonstrations to fire companies, schools, organizations, and other public service personnel, so they can be aware of the signs of drug abuse.

Not to mention she has aided my husband on her own "decision" by jumping out of the window to help subdue a suspect. She has been awarded with a letter of recognition from the sheriff of their dept.

So........ If we decide to breed her to a suitable sire one day.......I will let you all know.........and I hope I don't get any $hit from my friends here at Chaz. I will definately keep you updated.

[wolfsoul]

I am with you Julie --- I often have days when my medication doesn't work well, and I need Visa to be my therapy dog. She goes into public with me and she alerts me as to when I may have an episode, she comforts me if I have an attack, she directs me if I'm too dizzy to see where I'm going. She does this on her own instinct -- it's not something I trained her to do. And she isn't titled for it. I plan to donate future puppies of her's to the assistance dog program here.

[GSDlover_4ever]

I totally agree with you Julie. Rocket along with other working dogs dont have time to get titles. I prefer to actually see a dog WORK than a few titles behind a name. Most of the dogs in the K9 units have no titles and are bred to more dogs with no titles. But they sure as hell get there job done.

Hondo's father has NO titles what-so-ever. But if you ever saw him work ( and man, does he have drive) you would see a TRUE working dog.

[GSDlover_4ever]

I am with you Julie --- I often have days when my medication doesn't work well, and I need Visa to be my therapy dog. She goes into public with me and she alerts me as to when I may have an episode, she comforts me if I have an attack, she directs me if I'm too dizzy to see where I'm going. She does this on her own instinct -- it's not something I trained her to do. And she isn't titled for it. I plan to donate future puppies of her's to the assistance dog program here.

She is your SERVICE dog, not therapy. Therapy dogs are not allowed everywhere and if you make the mistake and say she is a therapy dog then they can turn you away. But it is against the law and against the disabilities act to turn away a service animal. It also states that a dog only needs to service you in at least ONE task for you ( for medical or physical reasons), and is under control and acts appropriately in public. I am not trying to offend you, just FYI. :)

[LizzieCollie]

sorry to add in my uneducated two cents but I am also a believer that titles are not as important as to what the dog can DO. I am a strong believer that conformation means practically nothing. Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

[ihartgonzo]

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

The rules of conformation include disqualifying vicious/aggressive dogs, period. To answer the questions for both the Poodle and bully breeds.

Honestly, just think about conformation all-together. If there was no shows to judge conformation of dogs... where would dogs be? Standards are created to keep the whole breed intact, as far as form goes, and part of the biggest differentiators between every breed is their appearance, build, gate, etc. As much as working people hate to admit it, part of what makes even a working dog perform their tasks IS the way they are built. Border Collies could not perform their job if they had stubby legs, or short muzzles, or stocky build, and their standard completely reflects that. Biased judges might be a problem, but that does not make showing completely useless at all. I've never encountered what I felt was a biased judge, and I have been to several shows in the past 2 years. I think there would be a MUCH bigger "bias" issue if every owner was left to judge their own dog's conformation - OF COURSE we all think our dogs are beautiful, but only dogs that are excellent & proven physical/mental/working examples of the breed need to be bred.

[wolfsoul]

I have emailed the CKC and they recognise CGN as a title.

[sportingdogs]

sorry to add in my uneducated two cents but I am also a believer that titles are not as important as to what the dog can DO. I am a strong believer that conformation means practically nothing. Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

LizzieCollie, conformation means "practically, well a LOT!" sorry! Form follows function and the form needs to be correct in order to function. Yes, the dog should be able to do its job, but I also want it looking like its breed while doing it! Don't you?? Otherwise, why have breeds? Now, where do you get this? "Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree."....Umm, when entering the show ring, you do not hand the judge a copy of your dog's pedigree to peruse < g > The judge rarely if ever knows the pedigree of the dog he is examining. No self-respecting judge would put up a "horrible example of the breed" because of "some awsome [sic] champions in his/her background." Please, it REALLY IRKS me when posters come up with this stuff...do you make this stuff up as you go along? Really now.

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

Now how do you know this? I BET what you were actually seeing was the handler holding the dog's head still...we often will hold the head with one thumb at the muzzle, the opposing fingers at the jawline to keep the dog standing how we want. Not everyone holds the dog's head in this way and perhaps this is what you saw this one handler doing. Of course the judge didn't care! < g > And how would the judge have known the pedigree? No, bully breeds are not supposed to be "vicious".

People, please, if you are going to post, speak of that which you actually know something about. Everyone is entitled to one's opinion, but I hate when that opinion is stated as fact; it is annoying and haughty. IMO < g >

[whatszmatter]

I have emailed the CKC and they recognise CGN as a title.
I always thought they were a little stricter in canada with titles and dog related things, but I guess not. The CGN is the AKC CGC. In fact the CGC was what was given out in Canada till the CKC started offering the CGN.

Its a program taken right from the CKC website--http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=91
Objective:

To identify and reward responsible, caring owners and their canine partners throughout Canada.
To ensure that one of our most favoured companions, the dog, is accepted as a valued member of our communities right across the country. Canine Good Neighbours can be counted on to present good manners at home, in public places and in the presence of other dogs.
What?

The test is non-competitive and allows dog and handler to demonstrate confidence and control in 12 steps. It assesses the handler and dog's relationship, together with the handler's ability to control the dog. Dogs are evaluated on their ability to perform basic exercises as well as their ability to demonstrate good manners in everyday situations.
Why?

The training program embraces both purebred and mixed-breed dogs and is fun, rewarding, and useful. It encourages owners to have a better and richer relationship with their dogs. The program also enhances community awareness of responsible dog ownership and the numerous benefits associated with dog ownership.
The Canadian Kennel Club encourages all dog owners to participate in the program, ensuring that our beloved canines are welcome and respected members of our communities.

Its is the same as the AKC's CGC program and the AKC explicitly states that is is a certificate, NOT a title

from the AKC website----
http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/index.cfm
Started in 1989, CGC is a certification program that is designed to reward dogs who have good manners at home and in the community. The Canine Good Citizen Program is a two-part program that stresses responsible pet ownership for owners and basic good manners for dogs. All dogs who pass the 10-step CGC test may receive a certificate from the American Kennel Club.

Whomever emailed you back from the CKC apparently doesn't know the difference between a title and a certificate

[LizzieCollie]

Hmm, I never posted my opinions as fact, they are just that, opinions. Im not a strong supporter of conformation, like other people have said I'd rather SEE a dog do what he was bred to do, not just see him run around a ring and have a judge say that he SHOULD be able to do what he was bred to do because he meets standards.

And YES that poodle was agressive, maybe not extremely agressive but definately snappy, I saw the show on TV when my dad taped it and it the news people (im not sure what they call the people that you hear speaking on tv about the show are called) but they clearly said the dog was snappy. Now I dont know why they didnt kick the dog out but it wasnt.

Again im not posting my thoughts as facts.

I owned a Shih Tzu in my later childhood who was a prime example of her breed. This girl was gorgeous and the true description of what a Shih Tzu should be. Only she was way too shy to show, and absolutely hated to be in the ring. She got quite a few wins before we pulled her out because she wasnt enjoying it.

I was more pleased with her obedience and therapy work than I ever would have been if she achieved a CH title. Just my OPINION

[GSDlover_4ever]

LizzieCollie, conformation means "practically, well a LOT!" sorry! Form follows function and the form needs to be correct in order to function. Yes, the dog should be able to do its job, but I also want it looking like its breed while doing it! Don't you?? Otherwise, why have breeds? Now, where do you get this? "Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree."....Umm, when entering the show ring, you do not hand the judge a copy of your dog's pedigree to peruse < g > The judge rarely if ever knows the pedigree of the dog he is examining. No self-respecting judge would put up a "horrible example of the breed" because of "some awsome [sic] champions in his/her background." Please, it REALLY IRKS me when posters come up with this stuff...do you make this stuff up as you go along? Really now.

Tell that to the American Show bred GSD's (how many times do we have to go back to the same thing, :rolleyes: ). Put my German Working line GSD against one of those "show" GSD's my dog would kill the other dog in whatever task you give it. Yes, GSD's do have a slight slant in the rear for a reason but as usually America has exxagerated it. You give them an inch and they go a mile. A comformation GSD (american bred) CANNOT work in those conditions. They lack the physical features as well as drive and pocession. Almost all working/herding dogs are divided because people get too into conformation looking at the physical features and ignoring the temperament of the dog. Just because a dog LOOKS right and conforms to standard does NOT mean it can work, because their "structure" was created for a purpose. When you take every show dog and put them up to those who are not in shows because they are "structually defective" (aka the actual working dogs) and put them to a task and the show dog can perform the task with as much drive and ability then I will applaud the breeder of that dog who cares for the WHOLE breed not just the looks.

* I am not trying to offend anyone, I am referring to those breeds that have a DRASTIC division between working and show dogs as does the GSD. *

[RedyreRottweilers]

sorry to add in my uneducated two cents but I am also a believer that titles are not as important as to what the dog can DO. I am a strong believer that conformation means practically nothing. Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

I saw a Poodle at a dog show when I was younger whos handler had hold the dogs muzzle shut when the judge examined him/her because if not that dog would have torn the judge to bits. Do you think the judge cared? No probably because of a great pedigree that dog placed in the top 3. I have seen bully breeds that will smack a judge with their tail because they are so happy to be in there and arent they supposed to be vicious (not)?

Poodles are held by the muzzle to avoid mussing the coat. I hold my dogs by the muzzle during the body exam to steady the dog, keep the head pointing forward (my dogs are friendly, and might want to turn around and lick or visit with the judge....judges have NO way of knowing what dogs are or are not looking around over their shoulder in a friendly manner.....one of the FIRST things you learn when showing dogs is to control the head during the body exam).

And no, bully breeds are NOT supposed to be vicious. They are, in fact, supposed to be indiscriminately jovial and friendly with all people. They CAN be dog/animal aggressive.

[JennSLK]

We hold the muzzle on the dogs I have handled because they somtimes turn and look at the judge. This also helps to keep them straight.

It does NOT mean they are ready to tear a judge to shreds. :rolleyes:

[sportingdogs]

Maybe in the old days it did but now there are too many judges that care only for pedigree. Even if the dog is a horrible example of the breed they will only think 'hey this dog has some awsome champions in his/her background'

The above quote DOES sound like you are stating these things as fact, LizzieCollie.

So the dog you saw was on TV. It is hard to judge something that you experience one dimensionally, don't you think? Even if the Poodle in question WAS snappy...you cannot base a judgment on the entire dog fancy on one incident. There were undoubtedly circumstances you nor the TV announcer knew about. But again, even so, one dog, one judge, one incident.

To the person who chimed in about GSD's..okay, I respect your opinion..not my breed; I do understand what you are saying. Please know that I am neither saying that Conformation is the ONLY thing..it is not..but it is an important PART of responsible breeding. I own a breed that works..VERY WELL. These same working, trialing dogs also excel in the show ring. That is why my breed is NOT split! :) If everyone ignored the breed standard and its proof in the show venue...my breed would suffer....I could see taller and taller, more pointery dogs, fiddle fronts, bad heads...etc....gone would be the one breed, one type. Thank doG for now my breed is safe and doing well.

[Giny]

LizzeCollie I just had a few questions for you. :)

Just curious, how else would you prove that certain breeds are breed worthy? You had a Shih Tzu and I'll use that as a quick example; how else can someone deem this breed as an excellent specimen of its kind in order to continue its line through breeding? Its purpose in life was to be a lap dog, I don't know of any events as of yet to prove that they are doing their job. If so, my 3 dogs would have that title hands down. :D

Sure you can have titles in obedience though not most common in this breed but personally I think they have to prove they are true to there standard and I see no other option then conformation. An owner stating that they are and excellent example of their breed does not sit right with me. True, titles on a dog aren’t enough to say he/she’s breed worthy but it’s a beginning.

I was more pleased with her obedience and therapy work than I ever would have been if she achieved a CH title. Just my OPINION
Also, just curious, how were you able to have a dog, too shy for show, become a therapy dog? Therapy work is much more evasive then showing.

[LizzieCollie]

Please know that I am neither saying that Conformation is the ONLY thing..it is not..but it is an important PART of responsible breeding.


This is right on cue. Conformation should not be everything, but it does play a big part. The thing is that SOME breeders concentrate more on standard and less in working ability. I mean who cares if a dog is the IDEAL dog of his breed, one that meets standards to the last hair if the dog cant work.

I think the ideal dog would be one that can win best of breed on Saturday and be out in the work field on Sunday. There needs to be a balance of the two. Lizzie is not show quality by a long shot. Why? because her breeder has concentrated on work drive. You look at Lizzie and she definately LOOKS like a Collie but then you start to see the little things (i.e she is not a big puffball like show Collies are :) ) I was actually told on another forum that she looks like a dog breed by a BYB :eek:

An ideal breeder IMO should have a good balance between work and conformation. I know some breeds (like the GSD) are divided into two groups: work and show. Same breed but when you look at the two groups you can tell the difference between them big time

[stevinski]

yer giny, you just made the perfect point!

all the people who say a dog shouldnt be judged on what it looks like and going round a ring and all that stuff, and say that they should be judged on working, and stuff.

whatabout toy breeds, they were bred for companionship?

[stevinski]

An ideal breeder IMO should have a good balance between work and conformation

any good breeder would have a balance between work and conformation,
for example while looking for my future sheltie show prospect puppy, i've been looking for a kennel that trials in conformation AND agility or obediance or both and anyone that does herding is a bonuss

[LizzieCollie]

Giny:

Sasha was too shy for the show ring for a number of reasons: She was not good around dogs of her same size (scared stiff of them, but loved big dogs for some reason). She just couldnt handle 'the crowd' She did MUCH better as a therapy dog because she could get one on one time with the people and her favorite past time was snuggling with you so it suited her quite well.

With her therapy work she never had to be part of the 'big' crowd for a long period of time, usually upon arrival when she was greeted by the nurses but the rest was one on one.

Shih Tzus are described as having an 'arrogant or proud' way of being, yet being totally sweet. Thats not how its worded in the standard, just my abbreviation. Sasha did not have that temperment, she could be quite shy at times, not at all an outgoing dog unless she wasnt dealing with too much stimuli.

Thats one of the reasons why she was never bred, along with a few others. :)

[LizzieCollie]

You know as I was posting the whole 'A good dog should not be judged solely on conformation but what it can do' thing I started to think about the 'lap dogs' and how would they prove they can do what they were bred to do.

Maybe we should start a lap contest? the pup that stays the longest on your lap and allows you to pet it without getting bored and jumping off, wins! Lol sorry im really stumped here

[stevinski]

Maybe we should start a lap contest? the pup that stays the longest on your lap and allows you to pet it without getting bored and jumping off, wins! Lol sorry im really stumped here

i think your onto something!

[Giny]

Maybe we should start a lap contest? the pup that stays the longest on your lap and allows you to pet it without getting bored and jumping off, wins! Lol sorry im really stumped here
Ha, that would be an...mmm...interesting event. :D

Thank you for clarifying the therapy dog question.

[wolfsoul]

Whomever emailed you back from the CKC apparently doesn't know the difference between a title and a certificate

I doubt that, as this person sent me a word file that had the entire list of CKC recognised titles. CGN was among them.

CKC Approved Event Titles

Title Description

CH Champion (Conformation)
CH (ALT) Champion (Altered)
FTCH Field Trial Champion
AFTCH Amateur Field Trial Champion
FT/AFTCH Field Trial/Amateur Field Trial Ch.
NAFTCH National Amateur Field Trial Ch.
NFTCH National Field Trial Champion
JFTR Junior Field Trial Retriever
QFTR Qualified Field Trial Retriever
WS Working Spaniel
CD Companion Dog
CDX Companion Dog Excellent
UD Utility Dog
OTCH Obedience Trial Champion
OTCHX Obedience Trial Champion Excellent
MOTCH Master Obedience Trial Champion
GMOTCH Grand Master Obedience Trial Champion
PCD Pre-Companion Dog
CDI Companion Dog Intermediate
TD Tracking Dog
TDX Tracking Dog Excellent
UTD Urban Tracking Dog
UTDX Urban Tracking Dog Excellent
FCH Field Champion
FCHX Field Champion Excellent
WC Working Certificate
WCI Working Certificate Intermediate
WCX Working Certificate Excellent
FDJ Field Dog Junior
FD Field Dog
FDX Field Dog Excellent
JH Junior Hunter
SH Senior Hunter
MH Master Hunter
GMH Grand Master Hunter
DD Draft Dog
DDX Draft Dog Excellent
BDD Brace Draft Dog
BDDX Brace Draft Dog Excellent
Page 2

AGN Agility Novice
AGI Agility Intermediate
AGX Agility Excellent
AGMX Agility Master Excellent
AGNJ Agility Novice Jumper
AGIJ Agility Intermediate Jumper
AGXJ Agility Excellent Jumper
AGMXJ Agility Master Excellent Jumper
AGMCH Agility Master Champion
AGNS Agility Novice Selected
AGIS Intermediate Agility Selected
AGXS Agility Excellent Selected
AGMXS Master Agility Excellent Selected
AGNJS Agility Novice Jumpers Selected
AGIJS Agility Intermediate Jumpers Selected
AGXJS Agility Excellent Jumpers Selected
AGMXJS Agility Master Excellent Jumpers Selected
HT Herding Tested
HS Herding Started
HI Herding Intermediate
HA Herding Advanced
HTT Herding Tested-Tending
HST Herding Started-Tending
HIT Herding Intermediate-Tending
HAT Herding Advanced-Tending
HC Herding Champion
HX Herding Excellent
SDS Stock Dog Started
SDI Stock Dog Intermediate
SDA Stock Dog Advanced
DC Dual Champion (Herding)
JE Junior Earthdog
SE Senior Earthdog
ME Master Earthdog
CGN Canine Good Neighbour

CKC Recognized Versatility Event Titles

Title Description

SD Sled Dog
SDX Sled Dog Excellent
SDU Sled Dog Unlimited
CG Certificate of Gameness
EWC Earth Working Certificate
WRD Water Rescue Dog
SHD Scent Hurdling Dog
SHDX Scent Hurdling Dog Excellent
SHCH Scent Hurdling Dog Champion
FH Schutzhund Tracking Test
SCH I Schutzhund (Level 1)
SCH II Schutzhund (Level 2)
SCH III Schutzhund (Level 3)
AD Schutzhund Endurance Test
BH Schutzhund Companion Dog
WH Schutzhund Watch Dog
IPO I International Performance Level 1
IPO II International Performance Level 2
IPO III International Performance Level 3
SCH A Schutzhund title

[Julie]

Just curious....... To those of you that know.
What is the difference between a title and a certificate? Why is one more important than the other? Why is one looked at as a "go ahead" for breeding and one looked at as nothing more than "oh that's just a certificate"?
Please go into detail as I (as a certified dog owner) believe a certification is something to be proud of also. I also believe that certification of certain events proves your dog worthy.

[RD]

Julie, let's take herding for example... Dogs can get a herding instinct certification if they will chase sheep around a pen. They don't have to show good form, they can bite the sheep and terrorize them, or they can just sniff idly at them. That's enough to earn them the certificate.
The Canine Good Citizen/Canine Good Neighbor certificate is simply acknowledgment that the dog in question has basic manners and can handle everyday situations without freaking out. I think this is a great test, however I do not believe it proves anything regarding the temperament or ability of the dog. As an example - my nervy, fear-aggressive, antisocial Papillon passed the "practice test" for his CGC with flying colours. So he's trained enough to control himself, w00t! That doesn't mean there is something extra special to acknowledge about him. Now, if he got certified as a narcotics detection dog, he'd be worthy of a second glance.

I agree that certain certifications help to prove a dog worthy. Being certified as a SAR dog, for example, is a big deal and proves that the dog has the training, the guts and the soundness for this job. CGC doesn't prove much at all.

I think it depends on the certification...

[bubbatd]

The main thing is a long pedigree that show titles in the background at least. This proves good lines and reponsible breeding. Yes, I bred to untitled dogs, but only through good pedigrees. You really have to know the breed and backgrounds ..... the main thing at this point is health testing of everything and getting to know the breeder. I would never buy a pup with no titles in a 3 generation pedigree or no proof of ALL testings. AKC registration means nothing.

[wolfsoul]

It also depends on the person hosting the test. Visa's HIC test was done by the top stock dog trainier and border collie breeder in BC. She would not certify a dog that just showed interest. The dog had to show interest, show a good amount of control, and be able to take commands (such as "down" or "stay") while herding. She told me that Visa was the best Belgian she's ever seen and she's told me that I one day I should compete. She is an amazing instructor and she had a dogs come in 3rd and 6th out of 160 runs at the Calgary stampede this month. I will compete in herding one day, but for now I take her word that my dog is a great worker, and I hold Visa's HIC with value because she got it from someone who doesn't just hand it out to every Tom Dick or Harry.

Now the CGN test we took on the other hand, was the most lax thing ever. There was no way Visa would have passed if it were me in charge. You'll get plenty of people that are very strict when hosting a CGN test, but these people were not strict at all.

Everything has to be taken in to account -- the world of dogs is not black and white as it seems.

[bubbatd]

I feel the TDI title worthwhile when children and elders are involved.

[Julie]

RD,
I agree...... it depends on the certificate. Now what about titles how does a title "prove" a dog, are they all equally hard to obtain? I would imagine one title would be easier to obtain than others? Should a person look for certain titles if considering breeding? I am really not trying to be a smarta$$, I am truly interested in knowing what papers/titles would really "prove" a dog for breeding? (Not even considering health aspects in my question) In everyones opinion.....:)


The main thing is a long pedigree that show titles in the background at least. This proves good lines and reponsible breeding. Yes, I bred to untitled dogs, but only through good pedigrees. You really have to know the breed and backgrounds ..... the main thing at this point is health testing of everything and getting to know the breeder. I would never buy a pup with no titles in a 3 generation pedigree or no proof of ALL testings. AKC registration means nothing.

Grammy,
I somewhat respectfully disagree with that. My Shiloh has an excellent pedigree and many FC AFC, NAFC FC AFC, in her pedigree. Her parents had all the health testings.......eyes, heart, hips. She is what I thought the perfect lab, when we got her as a pup. She is a great retriever - no second guess there, but she is overly hyper, and dog aggressive. (She has brutally attacked 2 other dogs).

Now, Charlie.... I rescued him from a terrible breeder, he is actually the only pup that survived out of his siblings thru the winter. He has no titles in his pedigree, no hunting at all in his pedigree. Purely a backyard dog from backyard parents........BUT given the opportunity to be taught and learn he is a great retriever also.....but not overly hyper, and not dog aggressive. If I were to consider hunt tests or field trials with either dog.......I would definately do it with Charlie. He also makes a much better family dog, because I can include him in all the activities that Shiloh has to be left out of.

So I guess it all depends on what is important to each of us as individuals. ;)

[bubbatd]

I agree , Julie, that is where the breeder enters ...NO ONE realizes how much time some of us take with litters to check and socialize.! Luckily I never had an aggressive Golden .... had I not worked from day one with a " cranky" pup, who knows. It's these pups... no matter what background , titles etc. that end up in shelters. It's what done from whelping on that form their future ,unless they come from bad breeding. I can only talk Golden Retriever.

[MomOf7]

I agree , Julie, that is where the breeder enters ...NO ONE realizes how much time some of us take with litters to check and socialize.! Luckily I never had an aggressive Golden .... had I not worked from day one with a " cranky" pup, who knows. It's these pups... no matter what background , titles etc. that end up in shelters. It's what done from whelping on that form their future ,unless they come from bad breeding. I can only talk Golden Retriever.
Grammy you hit the nail on the head. From day 1 everything you do is important as far as socialization goes. I know that Labs and Goldens are similar in alot of ways but it would only make sense with any breed.

[ihartgonzo]

About the HIC, no it does not require the dog to naturally work livestock, but a dog that only wants to "chase" and will not begin to circle, eye, and stalk won't pass with any reputable tester. A few Aussies that we watched were major chasers and showed zero eye or methodical behavior, and they did not pass because of it. If the qualifications were chasing, a freakin Husky could pass! ;) hehe

[whatszmatter]

I doubt that, as this person sent me a word file that had the entire list of CKC recognised titles. CGN was among them.
well, you better believe it, there are a whole list of certificates on there that most defineatly are NOT titles to name a few: AD, BH, WH, HIC, CGN

and to answer the other questions, the difference between a certificate and a title is the amount of work involved and the amount of testing involved. Certificates usually only involve the most basic exercises and only test the most basic functions of a dog.

A title on the other hand shows much more intensity by the dog, much more control by the handler and the tests are much more involved. They actually will test a dog in certain situations.

If that is in fact a list of recognised "titles" by the CKC they are the only club in the world that will call a CGN, AD, BH, Wh etc., a title. The FIC, AKC etc, only see them as basic certificates, a stepping stone to obtaining a real working title.

believe what you will, i'm out

[RedyreRottweilers]

I disagree that AD, BH and WH are not titles.

The AD is a 12 mile endurance test that requires extensive conditioning and training to pass.

The BH is an obedience and temperament test that is a higher level than the CD title, IMO.

And the WH requires a dog to guard objects.

I do agree that CGC (or CGN) and HIC are certificates, along with the ATTS TT.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Requirements for the BH....

http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/docs/05_trial_rules_02.pdf

[RedyreRottweilers]

Actually AD could go either way. You could call this a certificate....

http://www.dvgamerica.com/ad.html

[RedyreRottweilers]

Judges marking sheet for WH....

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/members/forms/WHJudgeSheet_web.pdf

[whatszmatter]

I said I was done, but I guess I'm not.

yes a BH is more involved IMO than a CD, but is still considered a certificate. We just had this conversaition with SV judge Helmut Konig, and a BH is still a cert, not a title, WH, and SCH A are called titles by many, but they technically aren't I believe because they don't have bearing on breeding.

and AD I guess could go either way, because it tests function and could be used for a breeding title, but to most serious competitor they don't call it a title since any of our dogs could go out today and do one at anytime.

I'm familiar with the judges sheet, for the tests, i've done them, i know how to train for them, many people falsely call some of these things titles, maybe to them and their club, but to recognized nationally or for any breeding purposes, they are NOT.

[DanL]

The German stuff like BH isn't considered a title in the AKC because it's part of Schutzhund. We can't have any AKC show dogs doing anything as violent as that! Instead we can have them herd 3 sheep in a nice save environment and give them a title that way, and make up our own BH and call it something different.

[whatszmatter]

The German stuff like BH isn't considered a title in the AKC because it's part of Schutzhund. We can't have any AKC show dogs doing anything as violent as that! Instead we can have them herd 3 sheep in a nice save environment and give them a title that way, and make up our own BH and call it something different.
Now the AKC has adopted their working dog program so we'll see how that goes, thre are defineatly 2 sides to that Right now I haven't looked into it too much, and there's a lot of stuff going around as to which judges they will use and i'm not even sure they'll be recognizing schH titles now or not, i guess I need to check myself becaues they're are too many rumors going around on the internet.

[doberkim]

this is actually the second or THIRD reincarnation of bite sport being introduced to the AKC.

two years ago, the AKC tried to introduce (apparently unsuccessfully) a working dog trial, and the Doberman Pinscher Club of America hosted the first trial in conjuction with a GSD club, at their nationals - with a WDS trial. There is at least 1-2 dobes out there with AKC approved working titles already -
I know Dubheasa Germania SchHIII, IPO III, MondioRing Brevet WDS III CD, WAC, ATT, TT, CGC, holds such a title.

AKC clubs used to hold sanctioned schutzhund trials for years back in the 70's and 80s - it was before my time, but it occured.

[summitview]

If the qualifications were chasing, a freakin Husky could pass! ;) hehe

Chasing and eating, you mean. Most huskies think sheep look quite tasty :p

[whatszmatter]

this is actually the second or THIRD reincarnation of bite sport being introduced to the AKC.

two years ago, the AKC tried to introduce (apparently unsuccessfully) a working dog trial, and the Doberman Pinscher Club of America hosted the first trial in conjuction with a GSD club, at their nationals - with a WDS trial. There is at least 1-2 dobes out there with AKC approved working titles already -
I know Dubheasa Germania SchHIII, IPO III, MondioRing Brevet WDS III CD, WAC, ATT, TT, CGC, holds such a title.

AKC clubs used to hold sanctioned schutzhund trials for years back in the 70's and 80s - it was before my time, but it occured.
I just happened to be sitting at a Thai restraunt with my wife next to a group of AKC people going on and on about it. They were talking about how "disturbing" the video of bitework was and how they didn't want bite sports in the AKC. There was one voice of reason among them though and she politely pointed out that they had no idea the amount of training or the steps it took to get a dog to that point, they just saw a dog "attacking" someone, not having a clue as to what was really happening.

I'm interested to see how this all works out

[Julie]

and to answer the other questions, the difference between a certificate and a title is the amount of work involved and the amount of testing involved. Certificates usually only involve the most basic exercises and only test the most basic functions of a dog.

A title on the other hand shows much more intensity by the dog, much more control by the handler and the tests are much more involved. They actually will test a dog in certain situations.


Hmm.......Are you only speaking Akc or Ckc aquired titles and certificates?
Because if not you must not be too familar with the training/requirements/and situations my Rocket has indured. She works 45+ hours a week, not to mention the week long k9 seminar where she had to prove herself in many many situations which she has to do every year to KEEP her certification. Not a title but a certificate. I believe what she and my husband and our family (yes we all go to the certs every year) have been involved in is in no way any less than a dog with a title. At least once a dog earns a title they are for keep.......if Rocket can't pass every situation she is evaluated on (every year) and follow all her commands, she may not be able to go back to work on Monday morning. And if my husband doesn't have complete control of her at all times in any situation.....then she couldn't obtain her "certificate" to continue her work as a patrol dog which includes narcotic detection, tracking, apprehension, and handler protection.
Rocket is AKC registered, but her training doesn't mean squat to them.

[Crotalus]

Yes, and a tremendous amount of work goes into training SAR dogs as well, who only recieve a mere certificate. It can take upwards of 2 years to get a dog certified for SAR, which includes daily training/socialization routines lasting for hours. That's why I could never do SAR, it takes over your entire life. Every single weekend, every single morning and night. Those dogs have to be able to do incredible things obedience and work-wise, such as totally ignore rabbit trails and lay down and stay when their handler signals them to do so from 50 feet away. Yet most do not ever recieve titles simply because they (the dogs and handlers) are too busy staying prepared mentally and physically to be called at the drop of a hat to go find some lost hiker in an avalanche area.

[whatszmatter]

Yes I was talking about AKC and CKC "breeding" titles not SAR. patrol work, drug or explosive detection either. If anyone cares to remember, this started about CGN and CGC's being considered titles. We train, dual purpose, drug and explosive detection so I know what's involved and that most will never get any sort of "title"

[fillyone]

Being certified as a K9 or SAR certified is VERY different than a CGC or HIC certificate.
VERY different

[AmberwayGSD]

Being certified as a K9 or SAR certified is VERY different than a CGC or HIC certificate.
VERY different
agreed.

[IliamnasQuest]

Just popped into Chazhound after not having been here for some time .. been busy working and showing my dogs (getting titles takes TIME - just like sitting online and posting in here takes time).

My take on all of this is that a GOOD breeder does the following:

1) Make sure their dogs are fully health tested prior to breeding (as appropriate for the breed)
2) Have their dogs tested by more than one person to assess breed worthiness (adherence to the standard), temperament and overall soundness. (This could mean assessment by judges, koer-classed, AKC/CKC etc. judging, whatever - but it needs to be done by people who have the qualifications to truly judge the worthiness of the dog. It could mean receiving a conformation championship but doesn't necessarily have to go that far.)
3) Have a good knowledge of their dog's pedigree, the strengths and weaknesses, the health status of the ancestors, etc.
4) Prove their dog's working abilities, temperament, intelligence, athleticism. This could be done with titles in obedience, agility, herding, tracking, schutzhund, field trials, etc. or with actually being in long-term working situations. A dog that occasionally herds or tracks and has not earned a title wouldn't be worthy, to me. It has to show that it has the stamina to either earn the titles or work consistently.

Again, in my opinion - a person who says "my dog can work" but base that on a few encounters with sheep or a few training sessions does not prove anything. Titles are earned with consistent work under a certain level of stress, which is why they tend to prove worthiness. Same thing with solid working dogs (police dogs, SAR dogs, etc.). If these dogs have trained and certified in those fields, and are actively working, then as far as I'm concerned they've proved worthiness as far as a working dog.

There are certifications that mean very little to me (although I will often do them with my dogs just for fun). Any certification that takes ONE time to pass is not an indication that the dog will consistently work. In addition, some certifications are so very basic that they should be earned by any dog (CGC, CGN). I do these with my girls and I list them, but they're listed way after all the other real titles. Same thing with HIC - I have certified several dogs on sheep but in all honesty it doesn't take much for a dog to get the HIC certification. It's extremely basic.

If all a dog has is these simple certifications, then as far as I'm concerned it has no proof of working ability. Even a CD is very basic to me .. but then again, it depends on the breed. Looking at a German shepherd pedigree, I would expect to see titles like CDX and UD, TD and TDX, Sch2 or Sch3. On a chow pedigree, I'm happy to see a CD and if there's a CDX I'm THRILLED. So the breed of dog has to be taken into account too.

There's a lot of arguing between people who say that a working dog should be good enough to breed just because they're working, and people who say that a dog needs titles. In a way both sets of people are saying the same thing - that the dog needs to show that they CAN work. The titles just provide written proof of that. What doesn't work is someone saying "I know my dog CAN work, so my dog is worthy of breeding".

We all tend to have rose-colored glasses on when looking at our own dogs. Working ability needs to be proven and not just assumed - proven either by actively working or earning titles.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... slowly working on titles .. Khana earned two first places (scores of 98 and 93 with nine qualifiers) towards her RN title and Trick earned two seconds (scores of 99 and 98) towards her RA title last week .. and Khana picked up two points towards her CKC conformation title last month ..

[RedyreRottweilers]

Rock on, Melanie.

I'm in your fan club.

:D

[~Tucker&Me~]

Agreed Melanie :D.

~Tucker

[fillyone]

Nice post Melanie and congrats on the progress to titles!