Your Definition of Ethics

[summitview]

At the request of many, we'll bring the ethics debate to its own thread.

To all of you:

What is your full definition of an "ethical breeder?"

[PoodleMommy]

A Few things stick out to me:

1. Pups should be first concern NOT money. If you do not have the money to treat them right, DONT do it.

2. Ask yourself, "Am I bettering _____ Breed?" If No, DONT do it.

3. Are Sire and Dam health checked? Champions? Breeding Material? The Answer should be Yes to all.

4. If you have a "cute" puppy that you want another of and your idea of Health checks is a quick vets visit and yearly shots... spay or neuter your dog.

Elissa

[corsomom]

To better the breed. I would not be interested in buying a pup from a breeder that does not do something with their dogs, working, showing, someone thats not involved in anything with the breed I dont think should be breeding. and ofcourse heath checks.Do I think someone should be breeding their pets-No! And spay and neuter contracts for pet pups.

[Saje]

I agree with all the stickies in this forum.

[JFrick]

What is your full definition of an "ethical breeder?"

What does it matter? All your gonna do is bash everyone and act like a supreme being like in the thread that was just closed about the Chi pups....

[Saje]

What does it matter? All your gonna do is bash everyone and act like a supreme being like in the thread that was just closed about the Chi pups....

There is nothing wrong with her asking this question. It comes up again and again and I'd much prefer it here than directed at one individual.

[JFrick]

There is nothing wrong with her asking this question. It comes up again and again and I'd much prefer it here than directed at one individual.

I agree, it's much better here than hijacking another thread and going off. But, and I hate this saying but I'm gonna say it anyway, mark my words..

[LabBreeder]

The thread was already hijacked and closed so summit got what she wanted...another person run off that doesn't answer her questions the way she (summit) likes and an OP that needed help and was pushed off to the side by questions not needed at the moment.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Hey guys. Im sorry for arguing with summit in the other thread, but I really hate it when people that think they know it all bash other people that just asked a question. Summit you know my views. Enough said.

[corsomom]

I think it matters alot. There are way to many people out there breeding ther pets becouse they are nice dogs and are pretty.I dont think its to bash anyone.

[tessa_s212]

I agree with all the stickies in this forum.

Ditto.

[JFrick]

I think it matters alot. There are way to many people out there breeding ther pets becouse they are nice dogs and are pretty.I dont think its to bash anyone.

I didn't mean that the question of ethics doesn't matter.....I should have phrased it as "What does it matter to Summit what other people's idea of ethics are?

I don't see anything wrong with breeding pets b/c they are nice or pretty. As long as everyone is healthy, go for it....AND, that the puppies will have a good home to go to or stay in the home they were born into. I do think that there are too many dogs in shelters, but I also believe that a lot of these dogs are in shelters b/c people are too concerned with having the perfect dog by "breed standards" and these shelter dogs are not good enough for them.

What I don't believe in is all this breeding to get the perfect dog so that the owner can win a title and get recognition. This to me is all about greed. And this goes back to my last statement about shelter dogs not being good enough for some....

I'm logging off, won't be back on until tomorrow...:) I'm sure I'll have a lot to respond to.

[Mach1girl]

One that works their dogs.
And ethical breeder should genuinely care 100% for all dogs/pups involved.
An ethicle breeder screens thoroughly, and places pups accordingly before the breeding even takes place.
An ethicle breeder spends a ton of $$ and time from the beginning to the end.
An ethicle breeder has all health testing done epecially tests that are specific to the breed.
An ethicle breeder CULLs pups that are not "worthy"
An eticle breeder charges thousands for a pup.
An ethicle breeder has a sopa box that they carry with them at all times, and after emergency preaching, their own personal baandwagon comes sliding around the corner like something from the Dukes of Hazzard just in time to rescue the "ethicle breeder."

Seriously, now that everyone has had ethicle breeder 101, how does this have anything to do when an accident happens???How do you "make up for it??" I will tell you how, as I did.

Be prepared to keep every puppy.
Pay to have an attorney research and draw up binding contracts.
Dont sell the pups, give them to perfect screened homes.
Sell your home and move to acreage to keep your pup s happy and active.
Share your bed every night.
Spay/nueter the parents, and the pups unless you plan on using them for a purpose of show or work.
etc,etc,etc.

[corsomom]

JFrick, There are lots of nice pretty healthy dogs in shelters.Ethical breeders are not the ones responsible for dogs in shelters, They will have you sign a contract saying you will return the dog to them if you decide for some reason you cant keep or dont want them anymore.There is no way they want the pups ending up in shelters.

[sweetbassets]

In no preticular order:

A breeder who is trying to better the breed, not for money.

They will choose a proven pair to breed that is as close to the standard of conformation/working ability/temperment as possible, and that may compliment any faults the other may have.

They have owned and handled their breed for a long time, and know everything there is to know about their breed.

They preform all the nessecary health testings for their breed.

They take full responsiblity for the puppies, and will take any puppy back for any reason.


Any puppy that is not up to standard will be spayed or neutered.

They will only breed dogs of the correct age, and will not breed a bitch every heat.

They will always be availible for any questions or concerns the new owner may have, and will keep in contact with the owners to know how the puppy is doing.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

corsomom. Im not trying to be rude but ethical breeders do contribute to the overpopulation problem. Whether we like it or not not everyone follows the contracts that they sign. The reason they do still contribute to the shelter population because instead of buying a purebred dog from a breeder the people could go and rescue a dog from the shelter. I am not against breeding for show nor am I against breeding sound dogs for family pets. I do have a problem with puppy mills and byb that crossbreed and breed unsound dog purebreds, purely for money, don't give a crap what health problems the parents have, that will pass onto the pups, and give them to every joe walking down the street. And I am not saying that people should not buy purebred dogs or that shelter dogs are for everyone. I am just trying to get my point across.

[LabBreeder]

...not everyone follows the contracts that they sign - savethebulliedbreeds

EXACTLY...no matter how hard you research a potential buyer, some of them will end up breaking the contract for one reason or another through no fault of the breeder. It doesn't make that breeder unethical, but one of their pups was still put in a shelter (most likely without their knowledge cause the buyer could have changed phone numbers/addresses)

[Mach1girl]

That is why they need to stay in contact with the new owners forever.

[RedyreRottweilers]

A responsible ethical breeder....

Competes with their dogs
Does ALL health testing, and reports ALL results, positive or negative
Breeds only for improvement, and breeds selectively
Grades litters carefully re: show prospects
requires spay neuter on all puppies graded as pets
Is a member and is active in their National Club, and usually local ones as well
Contributes and/or participates in breed rescue
Mentors newcomers
presents their breed in the most positive light possible

I'm sure I will think of more, but these are what comes to mind at the moment.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I didn't mean that the question of ethics doesn't matter.....I should have phrased it as "What does it matter to Summit what other people's idea of ethics are?

I don't see anything wrong with breeding pets b/c they are nice or pretty. As long as everyone is healthy, go for it....AND, that the puppies will have a good home to go to or stay in the home they were born into. I do think that there are too many dogs in shelters, but I also believe that a lot of these dogs are in shelters b/c people are too concerned with having the perfect dog by "breed standards" and these shelter dogs are not good enough for them.

Breeding of dogs who are "just pets" is very wrong.

These breedings take away homes from the dogs who are in shelters. Many who breed pets do not properly screen homes or require S/N on puppies.

The dogs are in shelters because of ignorant people breeding their PETS and not screening homes properly.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting to buy a dog from a responsible and ethical breeder.

There is also absolutely nothing wrong with adopting a dog from a shelter.

Breeding pet dogs by pet owners is wrong.

Period.

[RedyreRottweilers]

One that works their dogs.
And ethical breeder should genuinely care 100% for all dogs/pups involved.
An ethicle breeder screens thoroughly, and places pups accordingly before the breeding even takes place.

Screens, yes. Places before they are born, nope. You can't grade puppies that are not born. Ethical breeders usually have a waiting list, but puppies generally are not actually selected and placed until about 8 weeks.

An ethicle breeder spends a ton of $$ and time from the beginning to the end.
An ethicle breeder has all health testing done epecially tests that are specific to the breed.

Have you had the hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes done on your bitch yet?

An ethicle breeder CULLs pups that are not "worthy"

Define cull?

An eticle breeder charges thousands for a pup.

Nope. Not always. I know many, myself included, who sell puppies for less than $1,000, including show prospects. I have GIVEN puppies to the right homes, and likely will do so again.

An ethicle breeder has a sopa box that they carry with them at all times, and after emergency preaching, their own personal baandwagon comes sliding around the corner like something from the Dukes of Hazzard just in time to rescue the "ethicle breeder."

Do you call educating people who need it standing on a soapbox, and preaching?


Seriously, now that everyone has had ethicle breeder 101, how does this have anything to do when an accident happens???How do you "make up for it??" I will tell you how, as I did.

Be prepared to keep every puppy.
Pay to have an attorney research and draw up binding contracts.
Dont sell the pups, give them to perfect screened homes.
Sell your home and move to acreage to keep your pup s happy and active.
Share your bed every night.
Spay/nueter the parents, and the pups unless you plan on using them for a purpose of show or work.
etc,etc,etc.

[MomOf7]

The majority of us know what a ethical or responsible breeder is. You see it over and over in each post here.
A responsible breeder will first of all have plans and goals for thier breed
They will spend countless hours researching pedigrees, health clearances, keep updated on new tests.
They will not look to profit but look to better the breed or lines.
They will not have hundreds of dogs but limit themselves to as many as they can care for properly.
They will do health clearances on thier dogs
They will have contracts for thier clients as to not populate the shelters
They are picky about new clients and who buys a pup or dog from them.
They stick to their word and contract. Honesty is the best policy.
They will only breed dogs that compete and have good temperments.

Without getting into specifics and having a post that is too long to even post here this is a good summary. Pretty much the same thing everyone else has said.

[RedyreRottweilers]

...not everyone follows the contracts that they sign - savethebulliedbreeds

EXACTLY...no matter how hard you research a potential buyer, some of them will end up breaking the contract for one reason or another through no fault of the breeder. It doesn't make that breeder unethical, but one of their pups was still put in a shelter (most likely without their knowledge cause the buyer could have changed phone numbers/addresses)

My puppies are chipped with MY INFO before they leave my home, and also ear tattooed.

If one ever lands in a shelter, I will be notified.

[MomOf7]

Oh yes Red....Avid is a friend of mine. Its a expense but once you get a kit you save money at the vet office.
Kits run $650 depending on which one you get.
Also wanted to add that chipping the pups makes it hard for people to fool you about thier pup not passing a clearance. Nice lil bonus:)

[Boxerowner]

I didn't mean that the question of ethics doesn't matter.....I should have phrased it as "What does it matter to Summit what other people's idea of ethics are?

I don't see anything wrong with breeding pets b/c they are nice or pretty. As long as everyone is healthy, go for it....AND, that the puppies will have a good home to go to or stay in the home they were born into. I do think that there are too many dogs in shelters, but I also believe that a lot of these dogs are in shelters b/c people are too concerned with having the perfect dog by "breed standards" and these shelter dogs are not good enough for them.

What I don't believe in is all this breeding to get the perfect dog so that the owner can win a title and get recognition. This to me is all about greed. And this goes back to my last statement about shelter dogs not being good enough for some....

I'm logging off, won't be back on until tomorrow...:) I'm sure I'll have a lot to respond to.


I agree with everything said here!


1. Most important to me and SHOULD be to everyone planing to breed
Is full Health testing and pass before being bred because what is the reason for testing if you don't care if your dog/bitch has problems or problems in the lines.

2.Longevity would be my 2 goal
3.Temperament has to have a great temperament
4. If its a working breed the working ability
5.Is Beauty and conformation I don't believe you have to show in conformation to breed as long as you educate yourself and do proper health tests and pass.

[Boxerowner]

Oh yes Red....Avid is a friend of mine. Its a expense but once you get a kit you save money at the vet office.
Kits run $650 depending on which one you get.
Also wanted to add that chipping the pups makes it hard for people to fool you about thier pup not passing a clearance. Nice lil bonus:)


OFA requires permanent ID before testing I do believe.

[Mach1girl]

Screens, yes. Places before they are born, nope. You can't grade puppies that are not born. Ethical breeders usually have a waiting list, but puppies generally are not actually selected and placed until about 8 weeks.


Have you had the hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes done on your bitch yet?


Define cull?


Nope. Not always. I know many, myself included, who sell puppies for less than $1,000, including show prospects. I have GIVEN puppies to the right homes, and likely will do so again.


Do you call educating people who need it standing on a soapbox, and preaching?
Red, we've been round and round a ton of times. Funny how you pick MY post to pick apart. Remember, you are not supossed to contact me.

[MomOf7]

OFA requires permanent ID before testing I do believe.
NO they dont require but if you want it to show on a pedigree you need to have your dogs perminatly taged.

[Boxerowner]

NO they dont require but if you want it to show on a pedigree you need to have your dogs perminatly taged.


OK thank you! I was exactly sure mine are Chipped so I dont have to worry about that.

[corsomom]

JFrick, you say you see nothing wrong with breeding pets becouse they are nice and pretty.You also say you feel shelter dogs are not good enough for some. Dont you think that a huge part of the problem with unwanted dogs and over population is becouse so many people breed their pets?

[LabBreeder]

That is why they need to stay in contact with the new owners forever.


and if the owner moves and doesn't tell the breeder??? do you still blame the breeder?

[LabBreeder]

My puppies are chipped with MY INFO before they leave my home, and also ear tattooed.

If one ever lands in a shelter, I will be notified.

Then you are a VERY ethical and responsible breeder :D (as we all know).

[LabBreeder]

OFA requires permanent ID before testing I do believe.

Actually they require tatooing or permanent ID if you want a preliminary result posted.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Red, we've been round and round a ton of times. Funny how you pick MY post to pick apart. Remember, you are not supossed to contact me.

Rest assured, you won't be getting any PMs from me, but the question remains:

Have you had that testing done on your bitch?

You are the poster child for how not to breed your dogs.

[Boxerowner]

Rest assured, you won't be getting any PMs from me, but the question remains:

Have you had that testing done on your bitch?

You are the poster child for how not to breed your dogs.

You sure one to talk crap when you should be looking at your own breeding program.:rolleyes:

[ChiBree]

I've started a new thread guys! Hope you join me there! Or should I just take over this one :):eek:

[JennSLK]

I agree with red about what makes a good breeder.

I can only hope to be half as good of a breeder when I eventually do breed ,as red is.

[RedyreRottweilers]

You sure one to talk crap when you should be looking at your own breeding program.:rolleyes:

Well, I don't really HAVE a breeding program, since I only have one surviving litter who is almost 10 years old.

Are you commenting on my upcoming plans?

[bubbatd]

Breeding has changed since I bred .. I never did until I had a waiting list , wanted to extend my line , had a health checked male or female with all OFA and other certifications. I would say I turned down 95 % of females and males wanting to breed. Today , with the dog population raising , I see an explosion of puppys! Never breed a female because they're cute etc.

[wolfsoul]

Reputable breeder is such a loose term these days. Everyone has a different idea on what makes you ethical.

There are some things people said here that would describe me as unethical. While the litter my dog is pregnant with now is my breeder's, I will be starting my own kennel in two years. For one, I don't think both the parents need to be champions to be bred. My dog is not a champion. She has four points towards her championship, and I've been told by a judge that she is BIS quality and breeders that she is Specials quality...She is gorgeous. But she doesn't yet have her championship, and won't until next year. I do think it's important that the dog atleast be pointed, as I like to know that a dog will stand for a judge before I buy a puppy or use a stud, as Belgians can often be difficult in the ring. I also don't think that puppies need to be sold for thousands of dollars. In fact, I wouldn't even buy a puppy for thousands of dollars. For this litter, I get two puppies, and I'm GIVING one of them to a friend of mine. I have several people on my waiting list for her litter in two years that are such great homes I will probably give them a good discount, just as a thankyou for being such a great performance home. It's not a contest to see who can afford the puppies. A rich person can be just as horrible a home as a poor person. Money shouldn't be the main objective in any breeding program. The price is the breeder's perogative, but just because someone sells the puppy for under $1000, it doesn't make them a bad breeder. I will never sell my puppies for over $1000.

I think the dogs should be competed with. Whether or not the dogs are TITLED used to be of importance to me -- however, I've realised that it only matters if the dogs' temperments match up to be bred. A dog's prerequisites really aren't important to me -- in fact, the less working titles a dog has, the better match it is for Visa. She can only be bred to low drive dogs.
The dogs should be screened for any health problems that commonly occur in the breed.
The dogs should be registered and have pedigrees.
The breeder should be involved in rescue.

[groominggal]

Someone that is mating dogs to better their breed as a whole. Dogs that are by far not standard, breeding a "cutesy" name dog (i.e. doodles and poos), or breeding for money should NOT be breeding.

[MomOf7]

Actually they require tatooing or permanent ID if you want a preliminary result posted.
You are wrong. They do not require a tatto or perminate id to get a ofa certificate. You need to read up some more.:)
Pay close attention to the wording
Call your vet and ask.

OFA: What do I have to do to have an animal evaluated by the OFA for hip/elbow dysplasia?
Radiographs need to be taken by the veterinarian of your choice. These are submitted to the OFA along with the completed application form and service fee.
What type of identification is required in the film emulsion of the radiograph?
Each radiograph submitted must have positive permanent identification within the film emulsion that ties the radiograph to the application. This should include at a minimum the animal's name and/or number, the name of the veterinarian or clinic, and the date of the radiograph. If this information is missing or is illegible, the radiograph and application will be returned to the vet without being processed.

[Roxy's CD]

Redyre :eek: You chip all your pups with your own info?! Wow.. that is pretty respsonible...

I have no clue for technical what a responsible breeder is. A lot of the stuff on her sounds right.

Seeing as I got both my dogs for free in messed up situations I haven't had to go through the long arduous journey of finding a "good breeder" yet.

I imagine first and foremost what I'll look at, is not the dogs but the person in general. Their attitude.

Do they seem to generally care for their dogs?
Do they seem educated about dogs and their own breed in particular?
How many litters are "planned"?
Health guarentees (even though I don't think I would ever give a dog back) testing etc.

Even though it's a bit "debatey" (had to make up a word. LOL) This thread has been very informative for me. I plan on purchasing a confirmation dog in a few years and it's given me a lot of points to look for.

Thanks :D

[ihartgonzo]

No dogs should be bred unless they are conformationally correct (preferably Champions, but this depends on whether it's a working breed); excel in the work that they were bred to do; are OFA, CERF cleared, and any other ailments common in the breed; and most of all have a sound temperament. This is BECAUSE dogs dying in shelters mean something to me, if you are not breeding the best dogs possible and improving the breed, you might as well be sentencing dogs to death, because the last thing the country and world needs is to be flooded with more and more litters.

I agree with Summit about the breeder. To me, if the breeder does not give each of their dogs attention, exercise & love, they are irresponsible owners period. If their dogs sit in kennels and puppies are not given individual attention, no way. If they aren't involved in rescue, no way!!! If they have more than a few litters per year (especially if they have more than one litter at once), no way. If they do not make the effort to work their working dogs, no way. If they don't dedicate their lives to their breed, no way. If they don't require spay/neuter and return contracts, NOOO way. It's also extremely important to me that the breeder is educated about vaccinations & feeding. I wouldn't think twice about bypassing a breeder who feeds Iams, because that's extremely important to me.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Yes, RCD, I do.

I did this 10 years ago with the first one, and will continue with the upcoming one.

My contract also specifies that any puppy I place may NEVER be sold, placed, or rehomed in ANY WAY without my express written permission. I retain the right of first refusal on all dogs I place, and this is a separate page of my sales contract.

There are significant monetary penalties for breach of any part of my contract regarding breeding or rehoming of a dog.

I get enough personal information from buyers that if I need to I can track them down. (SSN, DL#, DOB, etc)

I also require that I be kept updated on all phone number and address changes.

I don't plan to pry into any puppy owners lives, but I do firmly intend to see to it that ANY puppy I ever produce lives its life out in a loving responsible home. I will ALWAYS take ANY puppy back that I produce at any time in its life for any reason. Pretty much no questions asked.

For me, causing new life to occur is such a serious responsibility that I literally lose sleep over it. I will worry worry worry and plan plan plan until puppies are safely born, raised, and placed.

And then I will worry worry worry over health testing, titling, showing, breeding, etc etc etc.

HA. Having dogs is having a great chance to obsess over such things.

;)

[ChiBree]

What is wrong with Iams food?

[savethebulliedbreeds]

It is a very commercial food. Commercial foods = crap. Don't buy any food that you can buy at a grocery or department store. The companies tend to spend more money on how the bag look than the contents. I know people are led to believe that is good, high quality food but it is not. Its full of fillers and you have to feed your dog more to fill it up.

If you put your dogs on higher quality foods they will need to consume less and therefore poop less. There coat will be healthier and shinier, your dogs will be in better health period. Lets put it this way there are just too many pros of feeding high quality food to list.

Another little piece of advise is don't feed your dogs anything that says byproducts (ex. chicken byproducts, beef byproducts etc.) on the label. Thats a pretty good indication of a bad dog food although there is more to it than that.

[BlackDog]

Every purebred dog breed has four dimensions to it that make it the breed it is; look, health, temperament, and ability. A responsible breeder will take into account all four of these dimensions before they breed. They will have a clear understanding of what these qualities are and why they are so important.

When I say *look* I’m referring to the physical appearance of the dog. Every breed of dog has a certain way it is suppose to look that is unique to it’s breed. The ideal specimen should have as many of these qualities as possible. How they keep track of what qualities each breed is suppose to have is through the dog’s breed standard. The breed standard outlines the qualities of the physical appearance of the breed. It also outlines the ideal temperament.

In regards to health, every breed has certain health problems that are common to it. Some have more than others because of multiple factors. The idea of breeding purebreds is to have the least amount of health problem possible, preferably none. Health testing is done on both parents, before breeding the litter, to determine if both dogs are free of genetic defects that could be passed on to the offspring. The breeder should also be familiar with at least four generations of the dog’s history; both parents. This is important when determining if there are any carriers of a disease in either parent’s history. Some defects skip over a generation. Health defect testing will only tell you if the dog has a defect, it doesn’t tell you if the dog is a carrier for a defect. By knowing the dog’s history, you can see if any of it’s relatives had any defects. If they did, it can tell you that the defect has skipped over one or more generations.

Temperament is another thing is impacts the breed and makes it unique. Every breed of dog has a slightly different temperament. Again, the idea is to breed dogs that come as close as possible to the breeds standard. This way, the dog will act the way it is said it’s suppose to act.

Ability means the dog can perform the function(s) that the breed was originally bred to do. Like a beagle being a good hunting dog, a golden retriever being good at retrieving and hunting, a border collie being good at herding, the mastiff being a good guard dog. Every breed has a reason it was bred for. It has an ability it is good at that makes it unique to every other breed. Some abilities are close to other breeds but each one is slightly different.

All of these four dimensions, put together, make up the breed you know and love. The catch is, all of these qualities must be worked for, through selective breeding. The founders of the breed made these qualities into the breed they are today, but it is through selecting breeding (picking out specimens that match the look, health, temperament, and ability of the breed) that maintain the breed’s uniqueness.

There are many types of breeders out there. Some breed only for health and temperament. Some breed only for look. Some breed only for ability. Some breed for ability and health. The list of possible combinations goes on and on. But the one thing all of these breeders are missing (the ones I just listed) is that they are not breeding for every dimension that the breed should have. So they are creating dogs that are only “half-pure” or “partial purebreds”. With every generation that goes on, that the breeder(s) do not breed for all four dimensions, the resulting litters become less and less like that of a purebred. Yes it is true, they will still technically have papers and be register able by the AKC, if both parents are purebred, but in reality they will not really be what they are suppose to be.
The quality of purebreds is not determined by the paper work, it is in how closely to the four dimensions the breeders breed them.

[BlackDog]

...not everyone follows the contracts that they sign - savethebulliedbreeds

EXACTLY...no matter how hard you research a potential buyer, some of them will end up breaking the contract for one reason or another through no fault of the breeder. It doesn't make that breeder unethical, but one of their pups was still put in a shelter (most likely without their knowledge cause the buyer could have changed phone numbers/addresses)

Responsible breeders keep in contact with the owner for the dog's whole life. If they move out of state the breeder will know about it because they call and visit the owner periodically. If the breeder doesn't feel that the potential owners are willing to keep this close relationship with the breeder, when the breeder is screening potential buyers for the future pups, the owners will not get a dog for them. After you buy a pup from a responsible breeder you are looking at a very long relationship with them. They don't end up in shelters.

[ChiBree]

What would be your recomendation for food?

It is a very commercial food. Commercial foods = crap. Don't buy any food that you can buy at a grocery or department store. The companies tend to spend more money on how the bag look than the contents. I know people are led to believe that is good, high quality food but it is not. Its full of fillers and you have to feed your dog more to fill it up.

If you put your dogs on higher quality foods they will need to consume less and therefore poop less. There coat will be healthier and shinier, your dogs will be in better health period. Lets put it this way there are just too many pros of feeding high quality food to list.

Another little piece of advise is don't feed your dogs anything that says byproducts (ex. chicken byproducts, beef byproducts etc.) on the label. Thats a pretty good indication of a bad dog food although there is more to it than that.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I just wanted to say, ChiBree, I'm glad you are still here, and I hope you are enjoying and learning from the posts on this thread.

I wish you best of luck with your girl and the new babies.

[Mach1girl]

Since you just cant resist my company Red, no, I havent had Dixie tested yet, I have had quite a lot on my plate to deal with.

And, our breed does not have a history of elbow or eye/sight problems so that will ptobably not be within her health testing requirements.

And I have been absolutly responsible.........100%, my pups and mom have all been completly taken care of. Everything responsible has been done.

I have alittle "dirt" on you Red, would you like to make this an all out battle for the world to read???I mean, every chance you get, you have to try to "show" everyone what a bad person that I am.............that is so immature!

I have never done a dang thing to you,. never, yet you persist.

We can hash up the past, you can tell on me(which is all in a search anyway) and I can tell on you, everything that has been volutarily sent to me over the net about you and your "breeding" program, and all its problems.

Many are proud of me for the way things have turned out, I am proud of myself................

Honestly............you sound complatly jealous!

[ChiBree]

I'm still here, thanks!!! Vet appointment today :) I'm here to learn, so no one is going to scare me away!!!


I just wanted to say, ChiBree, I'm glad you are still here, and I hope you are enjoying and learning from the posts on this thread.

I wish you best of luck with your girl and the new babies.

[JFrick]

JFrick, you say you see nothing wrong with breeding pets becouse they are nice and pretty.You also say you feel shelter dogs are not good enough for some. Dont you think that a huge part of the problem with unwanted dogs and over population is becouse so many people breed their pets?

No, I don't think that's a huge part of the problem, but it is a part of it, I'll admit that. I think that most dogs in shelters come from accidental breedings that produce unwanted pups. I'm not saying that everyone should breed their dogs, not everyone should, but if someone wants to breed their dog, then it's their choice to do that. I'm just saying that nobody has the right to condem someone for making the choice to breed their dog.

Now on to how eveyone says that health screening is so important....Cancer, Heart Disease, Altzheimers (sp?) all runs in my family, so does that mean I should never have children? This goes back to the greed comment I made about how some want the perfect dog (in their eyes). The perfect dog to me has nothing to do with looks or "breed standards", it's the personality. I understand things like 2 Aussie Merle's can't be bred b/c the pups will more than likely be blind and/or deaf, there are certain circumstances, but that's not health screening, that's general knowledge about a breed.

Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....

[Mach1girl]

No, I don't think that's a huge part of the problem, but it is a part of it, I'll admit that. I think that most dogs in shelters come from accidental breedings that produce unwanted pups. I'm not saying that everyone should breed their dogs, not everyone should, but if someone wants to breed their dog, then it's their choice to do that. I'm just saying that nobody has the right to condem someone for making the choice to breed their dog.

Now on to how eveyone says that health screening is so important....Cancer, Heart Disease, Altzheimers (sp?) all runs in my family, so does that mean I should never have children? This goes back to the greed comment I made about how some want the perfect dog (in their eyes). The perfect dog to me has nothing to do with looks or "breed standards", it's the personality. I understand things like 2 Aussie Merle's can't be bred b/c the pups will more than likely be blind and/or deaf, there are certain circumstances, but that's not health screening, that's general knowledge about a breed.

Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....But not everyone looks at their dogs as "humans" per say, as I do and as I can tell you do too.

They ask how you can compare children to dogs or vice versa. I think the same, what is good for one is good for the other..........to a point. Now, I do not beleive in mix breeding, and all genetic diseases or health(major) problems do not need to be bred, this is just so the pup will never suffer. But things as allergies, can be bred out.............however, many say a dog with allergies should not be bred..................

[JFrick]

But not everyone looks at their dogs as "humans" per say, as I do and as I can tell you do too.

They ask how you can compare children to dogs or vice versa. I think the same, what is good for one is good for the other..........to a point. Now, I do not beleive in mix breeding, and all genetic diseases or health(major) problems do not need to be bred, this is just so the pup will never suffer. But things as allergies, can be bred out.............however, many say a dog with allergies should not be bred..................



I agree with you there. A dog with a known disease or health problem should not be bred. But all this looking back 6 generations to find faults in the line is just going overboard.

I do believe though that cross breeding different breeds is okay. Nothing at all wrong with a mutt.

Let me add this, I never have and never will breed any dogs. I've thought about it but decided against it.

[ChiBree]

My opinion? I plan to breed. This is my first and will not be my last. I also think of my dogs as "my family". They get treated better most of the time!

[ChiBree]

I agree totally!!!


No, I don't think that's a huge part of the problem, but it is a part of it, I'll admit that. I think that most dogs in shelters come from accidental breedings that produce unwanted pups. I'm not saying that everyone should breed their dogs, not everyone should, but if someone wants to breed their dog, then it's their choice to do that. I'm just saying that nobody has the right to condem someone for making the choice to breed their dog.

Now on to how eveyone says that health screening is so important....Cancer, Heart Disease, Altzheimers (sp?) all runs in my family, so does that mean I should never have children? This goes back to the greed comment I made about how some want the perfect dog (in their eyes). The perfect dog to me has nothing to do with looks or "breed standards", it's the personality. I understand things like 2 Aussie Merle's can't be bred b/c the pups will more than likely be blind and/or deaf, there are certain circumstances, but that's not health screening, that's general knowledge about a breed.

Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....

[Mach1girl]

Chi~Watch your words...........................Tell me again after the last pup has left, and I will be surprised!:):)

The reason I do not beieve in breeding mutts is because there are so many now. I mean, there are o many stories of females gotten loose and knocked up, and such, that if everyone that did breed, bred a full blooded dog only, the world will still be full of mutts due to accidents!

Besides, I do also beleive in "preserving" a breed, keeping it clean as much as possible, guess I am just old fashioned that way......sentimental!

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I know some of you may disagree so lets agree to disagree right now. I feed Nutro Natural Choice. But I think any of the Nutro products are great. They also have Nutro Max & Nutro Ultra. Each of those 3 lines they have specific formulas for different needs. I absolutely love it. I worked at a pet store and all we sold was Nutro. I heard so many wonderful stories from people that switched their dogs to this food. One ladies dog was near death he was soooo sick all the time. She switched food and he is happy and healthy. Im not exactly sure what was wrong with him though. There are also a lot of other great foods available also. Does any one else have any suggestions for her?

[Mach1girl]

I feed Nutro Large Breed Puppy, and sometimes alternate between that and the Large Breed Puppy Lamb and Rice, also Nutro.

[whatszmatter]

Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....
Ihaven't read all these pages, but this isn't even close to the same thing. I have no problem mixing breeds. I get some for working dogs to out cross for health benefits and making a better working dog, this is being done for a reason.

Now mixing two and saying you get the smartest, most intelligent, most loving, non shedding, never barking, sweetest, best super pet in the whole wide world because they only get the best traits from, this may or may not be golden retriever we found on the side of the road and this poodle that was found in the paper for free and charging 2K or more for puppies is a totally different story. It has absolutely nothing to do with being racist

[ChiBree]

Can I purchase nutro at a pet store? Say pet supplies Plus?

[Serena]

Now on to how eveyone says that health screening is so important....Cancer, Heart Disease, Altzheimers (sp?) all runs in my family, so does that mean I should never have children?

What if I were to tell you that I thought that before someone even planned on having children they should be tested for genetic disorders that can be passed on?

What if I were to tell you that I thought every life brought into this world deserves as much chance as possible to live a life free of inheritied disorders?

But thats besides the point, breeding dogs has nothing to do with humans having babies.

What is the difference? A person with a history of health disorders has the ability to make a decision for themselves. They have the ability to come to their own conclusions on whether or not they can or should have children.

A dog can only breed if you allow it to breed. A dog has no concept of what is responsible breeding, it is up to the owner to make that decision.


Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....

This sounds like something a byb, pm'er or one of their supporters would say to me.

Isn't this statement in their big book of excuses?

If not now I am sure they will quickly add it to the list.

Racism has nothing to do with being against the breeding of mixed breed dogs...

It has everything to do with being a/or supporting responsible breeders/breeding.

Breeding mixes is considered unethical in the canine fancy. There is a code of ethics in breeding dogs.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I just checked their website and you can purchase it there.

I would suggest switching her to it. But do it very, very gradually mixing it into the Iams until you have her switched over.

I would suggest switching her to any of the Nutro Puppy foods, since she is lactating and then feeding the puppies the same. You can also buy canned Nutro Puppy food for when you start to wean the pups.

After she is done with the puppies I would put her on Nutro Natural Choice Lamb Meal & Rice Small Bites, Nutro Max Mini Chunk or Nutro Ultra Adult which is a holistic dog food. It costs more that the other two lines and there are not as many choices because it is fairly new but if you like holistic foods its the way to go.

Maybe you should check out their site. Its very informative.

http://www.nutroproducts.com/

[Roxy's CD]

From what I've heard Nutro isn't the best out there.

I'm in the process of switching to Eagle Pack.

www.eaglepack.com

I called them yesterday and spoke with a "nutrionist" there. They're great! They'll take all the time you want and answer all of your questions.

[JFrick]

What if I were to tell you that I thought that before someone even planned on having children they should be tested for genetic disorders that can be passed on?

Then I would say you have every right to say that dogs should go through all the screening.

What if I were to tell you that I thought every life brought into this world deserves as much chance as possible to live a life free of inheritied disorders?

I believe that too. But there is never a guarantee that inheriteted disorders won't happen.

But thats besides the point, breeding dogs has nothing to do with humans having babies.

I was just making a point. If 2 people have a child and there are known disorders that runs one or both families, do they get hacked on for not being responsible parents?

What is the difference? A person with a history of health disorders has the ability to make a decision for themselves. They have the ability to come to their own conclusions on whether or not they can or should have children.

And so do dog owners. They have that choice on breeding dogs.

Breeding mixes is considered unethical in the canine fancy. There is a code of ethics in breeding dogs.

And ethics are all opinion. Everyone has a different one.

[Saje]

Nutro's not the best food. I'm sure you can find better :)

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I am a vet assistant and I have worked closely with nutritionists. You are right Roxy's CD they are great. The ones I deal with agree that Nutro is good but then again everyone has their own opinions. Eaglepack is also very good food. I can't get it where I live though. I would have to drive a great distance.

[casablanca1]

In my opinion, an ethical breeder is one who takes care of their dogs. If they're breeding labradoodles, pugs or mutts, they have to care for their animals as well as possible - they have to provide decent food, a clean living area, thorough vet care and a good partnership relationship with a human.

Finer points - I believe anyone breeding for show or pet homes has an absolute responsibility to make a gentle temperament their first priority. I don't care if the breed was originally intended to kill bears or guard estates, the puppies are going to be living in normal 21st-century homes and all the breed history in the world doesn't justify creating another generation of dangerous dogs. There are more than enough in the world already. The only exceptions are for people who breed exclusively for working dogs - dogs who, if they aren't good enough to work, will not be simply released to the general, unprepared population of would-be pet owners. This is a tiny subsection of the dog world.

I believe that it's possible that breeding mutts or 'pet-quality' dogs is a good thing. It's true that there are many dogs in shelters who need homes, but it's also true that many of those dogs are unsuitable for the majority of available homes. I love all three of my shelter dogs, and have never had any interest in breeding dogs, btw, I just think that playing the numbers game - there are 3 gazillion dogs in the shelter, and that labradoodle just doomed one! - is pointless. That argument behaves as if all dogs are equal. I'd rather have my shelter mutt than any purebred at the local AKC show, but I'd rather spend $1000 for a purebred than $50 for an ill-natured shelter dog.

The breeders who are really destroying dogs are puppy mill operators and the people who breed so-called fighting dogs. These are the dogs who, when they end up in shelters, are the most likely to be unadoptable, unhealthy and nasty. They create the large numbers of puppies and dogs who become unwanted every day. The lazy guy who never got around to neutering his dog, or the woman who wants her kids to experience the wonder of puppies before neutering their pet - they might not be the most responsible of owners but their output is just a drop in the bucket compared to the people who produce thousands of litters a year for pet shops and the people who intentionally produce aggressive dogs for fighting/posturing. The worst 'doodle breeder in the world would blush to be as openly craven and greedy as these two.

[ChiBree]

I am a vet assistant and I have worked closely with nutritionists. You are right Roxy's CD they are great. The ones I deal with agree that Nutro is good but then again everyone has their own opinions. Eaglepack is also very good food. I can't get it where I live though. I would have to drive a great distance.
You have my dream job!!! Although I almost cry everytime I go to the vets so I'm sure I'd never be able to handle it all. Ok I'll check out Nutro.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Well to be honest I don't work as one anymore. I still consider myself as one even though I don't work as one because I still have the schooling.

[Serena]

Then I would say you have every right to say that dogs should go through all the screening.

Thank you for saying that.



I believe that too. But there is never a guarantee that inheriteted disorders won't happen.

You are right. In genetics there are no guarantees but genetic screening is the ONLY way to reduce the risks of passing on painful genetic disorders and each life deserves that chance.

I was just making a point. If 2 people have a child and there are known disorders that runs one or both families, do they get hacked on for not being responsible parents?

Of course not, but humans are not dogs.

A person has the ability to make a logical decision when it comes to having children.

They have the ability to speak with a health care provider and make an informed decision on what risks there are of passing on a disease to a child.

Fluffy cant sit there and say "I'd like to have puppies with Fido but I got hip dysplasia so lets discuss these options with the vet and see what he thinks"

Fluffy can only breed if you allow her to breed. It is up to you to be responsible for her.




And so do dog owners. They have that choice on breeding dogs.

And if they choose to breed, they have a commitment to only breed dogs that are totally, completely, and utterly sound in every way.

And ethics are all opinion. Everyone has a different one.

The code of ethics in breeding is set forth by each breeds national club. You can not pick and choose the parts that work for you and ignore the ones that don't.

If a code of ethics is set forth you either follow it or you don't.

[Roxy's CD]

savethebulliedbreeds You can only get what's available to you. :)

ChiBree Are there any high end pet stores that carry better foods? If so, just call them and write down what brands they carry. Everyone has a different brand that they like, but I'm sure a lot of people here can help you out as to choose a good high end dog food.

[ChiBree]

So you've had tons of experience with this whole delivering thing right? I'll have to go back and re-read all your advise!

[savethebulliedbreeds]

You bet I have had a ton of experience. More with my own dogs than ones at the clinic though.

[ChiBree]

Cool. I'm so nervous and so on edge its sickning!

[Saje]

ChiBree please seriously rethink your choice to go with Nutro food. You can get much better quality for the price you will be paying.

[ChiBree]

Can you advise on a good food. I'm very open to suggestions, since I thought Iams was good!

ChiBree please seriously rethink your choice to go with Nutro food. You can get much better quality for the price you will be paying.

[Saje]

Check out Mordy's site www.dogfoodproject.com

And I think your bitch is supposed to be on a puppy food with extras, isn't she? I've never bred so don't know.

Also the food forum has lots of good foods listed but it all depends on the needs of your particular dog. Mordy is the person to ask for advice.

Some common brands
Innova www.naturapet.com
Candiae www.candiae.com ?
Eagle Pack www.eaglepack.com
.. there's lots

[Mach1girl]

OK, this is my opinion.

I am not solidly sure on your breed, however I have recently learned something. See if you can follow.

I have discovered that Daizy has Wobblers Syndrom. Now, we still are not positive what it is due to, possibly one of two things...One could be an injury. The other, and I was told this by a Dobie rescue group that has been involved w/ the issue for 20 years, is the food I put the pups on at weaning.

When Dix was pregnant, I had her on Puppy Chow, this was not cutting it when she started nursing, she looked deathly ill, so I did research and switched to the Nutro Large Breed Puppy. Then the pups started to be weaned at 4 weeks old due to the way they were tearing mom up with their teeth nursing, and I automatically put them on the same food in the form of mush.
Now, I am told, that(and I am trying) her diseaes is due to over nutrition. The vertibrae form very fast on extra nutritious food and it in turn does not give the pups bones a chance to calcify fast enough. I was told to switch her to an adult food, and even a generic(er) one like Purina in the green bag for a month or two to stunt her growth to give her bones a chance to catch up.

In other words, this whole disabled uppy thing may have been prevented by using a not so nutritious right off the bat.

Puppy food is high in fat and protein, and I guess the protein was too much.

Maybe, we are trying this route, but honestly, I have been told many times, not to splurge right off...................

[Mach1girl]

Ok, so how does this thread keep getting off topic??Lol......

[RedyreRottweilers]

What do you want to know, Mach1?

You want to know about my first litter?

You want to know about the temperament problems?

The cancer?

All the elbow issues?

Where do you want to start.

You want to talk about the second one I attempted but had no surviving puppies? The ER section? And then all the puppies dying of parvo later?

Which one would you like to discuss?

There are NO skeletons in my closet, and I have no issue discussing ANY of those things.

However, I DID supervise the birth of each puppy, and I DID do health testing before my bitches were bred, and I DID carefully plan each breeding with the goal of improvement.

I've been a member in good standing of my National Club for 15 years.

So, what was it you wanted to discuss?

[J's crew]

What do you want to know, Mach1?

You want to know about my first litter?

You want to know about the temperament problems?

The cancer?

All the elbow issues?

Where do you want to start.

You want to talk about the second one I attempted but had no surviving puppies? The ER section? And then all the puppies dying of parvo later?

Which one would you like to discuss?

There are NO skeletons in my closet, and I have no issue discussing ANY of those things.

However, I DID supervise the birth of each puppy, and I DID do health testing before my bitches were bred, and I DID carefully plan each breeding with the goal of improvement.

I've been a member in good standing of my National Club for 15 years.

So, what was it you wanted to discuss?


Maybe she wanted to discuss the fact that you are breeding a bitch with a bad elbow. Your excuse? That excluding dogs with DJD would severly limit the gene pool. News flash, there are TONS of dogs with correct type AND GOOD HEALTH.
Or maybe she wanted to discuss your stalking. You know, over on www.buybelowcost.com.
Or just maybe she was wondering how a WHOLE litter of puppies can get PARVO without a mistake made somewhere.

Hmmmmm? ;)

[RedyreRottweilers]

OK, this is my opinion.

I am not solidly sure on your breed, however I have recently learned something. See if you can follow.

I have discovered that Daizy has Wobblers Syndrom. Now, we still are not positive what it is due to, possibly one of two things...One could be an injury. The other, and I was told this by a Dobie rescue group that has been involved w/ the issue for 20 years, is the food I put the pups on at weaning.

When Dix was pregnant, I had her on Puppy Chow, this was not cutting it when she started nursing, she looked deathly ill, so I did research and switched to the Nutro Large Breed Puppy. Then the pups started to be weaned at 4 weeks old due to the way they were tearing mom up with their teeth nursing, and I automatically put them on the same food in the form of mush.
Now, I am told, that(and I am trying) her diseaes is due to over nutrition. The vertibrae form very fast on extra nutritious food and it in turn does not give the pups bones a chance to calcify fast enough. I was told to switch her to an adult food, and even a generic(er) one like Purina in the green bag for a month or two to stunt her growth to give her bones a chance to catch up.

In other words, this whole disabled uppy thing may have been prevented by using a not so nutritious right off the bat.

Puppy food is high in fat and protein, and I guess the protein was too much.

Maybe, we are trying this route, but honestly, I have been told many times, not to splurge right off...................

Nutro Large Breed Puppy food is formulated to prevent just what you are describing.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yes there are many good dog foods out there. Where I live there isn't much of a selection. I live in a town of 15,000 people in Saskatchewan, Canada. I personally love Nutro dog food and swear by it. But that is my opinion and everyone else has their own. Chibree, take what everyone here has said and decide for yourself on which food you want to feed your dog. Like I said I have heard some pretty amazing stories from people that have switched their dogs to Nutro but there are also a ton of other high quality dog foods out there to choose from too.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Maybe she wanted to discuss the fact that you are breeding a bitch with a bad elbow. Your excuse? That excluding dogs with DJD would severly limit the gene pool. News flash, there are TONS of dogs with correct type AND GOOD HEALTH.
Or maybe she wanted to discuss your stalking. You know, over on www.buybelowcost.com.
Or just maybe she was wondering how a WHOLE litter of puppies can get PARVO without a mistake made somewhere.

Hmmmmm? ;)

I will discuss the upcoming breeding of my bitch with anyone who would care to join that discussion.

That is not an excuse. It is a fact that is validated by statistical studies.

From http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html


There are many factors to consider when evaluating the progress of countries that permit breeding Grade I elbows. There may indeed be reasons to consider using Grade I elbows in breeding programs for the purpose of maintaining a broader gene pool, especially in countries where the breed specific rate of ED is approximately 25% or higher (as appears to be the case in some European countries). One must balance the potential consequences as they pertain both to the entire gene pool, and to elbow disease as a part of the gene pool. With a lower rate of ED in many breeds in the U.S., the genetic pressures to include Grade I ED's in most US breeding programs may not be the same as in other countries. Below are two sets of data which may help provide a basis for making a more informed decision whether to breed a dog affected with Grade I ED.

Example 1:
Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.
Example 2:
Below are some comparative elbow statistics on Golden Retrievers from the BVA (UK) scheme and the OFA.
Of the total of 577 Golden Retrievers evaluated by the BVA (through 2003):
434 are normal (75%)
87 are Grade I (15%)
40 are Grade II (7%)
16 are Grade III (3%)
Total of 143 affected (25%)
Of the total of 9630 Golden Retrievers evaluated by the OFA (through 2003):
8484 are normal (88.1%)
856 are Grade I (8.9%)
187 are Grade II (1.9%)
72 are Grade III (0.7%)
Total of 1115 affected (11.6%)
Comparing that data, it would appear that when the overall percentage of ED in the breed is higher, so also is the overall percentage of Grade II's and Grade III's – the potentially clinically affected dogs. It is also possible that this percentage may increase even more rapidly than the overall breed percentage. Note that while the total percentage of Goldens affected with ED in the UK is approximately double that of the US (25% compared to 11.6%), the percentage of higher grades in the UK is more than triple that of the US (10% compared to 2.6%). Although it is not certain that US Goldens would follow this exact trend if the percentage of ED began to increase, the data is compelling enough to warrant close vigilance and caution regarding potentially breeding dogs with Grade I ED.

Recent percentages of Elbow Dysplasia recorded at the OFA for Rottweilers are:

Rottweilers (By Birth Year)
1990 thru 1993 2,349 Rottweilers evaluated, 40.0% ED
1994 thru 1997 2,660 Rottweilers evaluated, 42.0% ED
1998 thru 2001 2,125 Rottweilers evaluated, 38.4% ED

In light of the fact highlighted above in bold italic underline, the current statistical rate of ED in the Rottweiler is 38.4%. This is 6.1% greater than the statistical probability of affected individuals when breeding a Grade 1 partner to a normal partner.

These are absolute factual statistics from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

I have DONE my research on ED regarding this breeding.

Regarding stalking, the person(s) of whom you are speaking followed ME there, not vice versa.

I do not send this person unsolicited email (as she has me).

The person whom I believe you are referring to is an (in my opinion) undesireable example of a breeder, is breeding animals who (in my opinion) are not of breeding quality (to state it as kindly as possible), is a proven liar, is breeding animals who are not CKC registered (a proven fact) and selling them as CKC registered. (a proven fact).

She has been CONVICTED of such in a court of law, so this is a matter of public record.

This individual (IMO) is harming my breed, of which I am very protective, so therefore I take any opportunity to state my opinions on the subject.

If you want to accuse me of stalking, you'll need better evidence than a few posts on a bulletin board.

[Mach1girl]

You keep stalking me! It seems every post I make you got to pick apart!

[Boxerowner]

This is a quote from a great friend and breeder of Rotties.

"I would not breed a dog who tested pos for DJD.
Some people do (certainly not people thinking of the future of the breed).
OFA says DJD is like a fair and still can be bred,but they have also told me (years ago) breeding a dog of Border line and mild is Okay.
When people put alot of money into their dogs and have all their hopes and dreams shattered because the dog did not pass a health clearence,they change the rules to suit them selves.
One of the top winning dogs has DJD II (supositly as there is no record on the OFA site to state other wise)and everyone is breeding to him.Soon no one will be able to breed to anything without these DJD lines in them
Back in the day when we found out about HD and started x-raying for that all Possitive dogs were excluted,DJD dogs should be also.
Another thing they tell you to justify them using DJD dogs is that over 40% of the dogs tested have it so you can't excluded.
Last year.
Normal elbows 462 dogs
indeterminate 0
DJD I 56
DJD II 11
DJD III 3
total 70 bad and 462 passing that is no where near 40%.They also say other countrys allow you to breed dogs with DJD I so we should too.It is a genetic thing and some lines have DJD for 3 generations and still they keep breeding them."

[J's crew]

You keep stalking me! It seems every post I make you got to pick apart!

Yep, here is some evidence. What about Rottiegirl? Oh, and as far as Vaccaro goes, I do not in any way condone her breeding practices. But she lost a law suit by default, and it had nothing to do with selling a dog not registered with the CKC.

And yes, there are alot of Rottweilers with ED. That is why a responsible breeder breeds AWAY from it. You know, by not including them. Very easy to do. ALOT of ethical breeders have no problem. But I guess in your case what would you do, get yet ANOTHER bitch and start over. Nope, you are desperate for a litter.

And you never answered, how did your puppies get Parvo?

[Mach1girl]

ED=(Erectile Dysfunction??"

Lol, I couldnt resist!!!

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Not being rude guys, but it's not exactly hard for a puppy to contract parvo. It's happened to me.

[Roxy's CD]

Erm. On the whole, I'll stay out of this, but.. I find it hard to "stalk" someone on the internet. I mean really. If you feel like your being stalked, get up and walk away from the computer! Problem solved!

I also think it's uncalled for to bring stuff from other forums here. Fight about it back there.

As for ED, I know, from going through HD with Roxy, you can have a sire and **** free of HD, and get a litter with puppies that have it.

Of course it would be best to breed away from it, but that doesn't totally avoid the problem.

[J's crew]

Not being rude guys, but it's not exactly hard for a puppy to contract parvo. It's happened to me.


Not rude at all. It does happen. But when someone throws another persons mistakes in their face all the time they should get a dose of their own medicine.

[J's crew]

ED=(Erectile Dysfunction??"

Lol, I couldnt resist!!!


Now, what's really on your mind??? :p

[Serena]

I don't know of any reputable breeders that do NOT immediately spay/neuter dogs found to be affected with genetic ailments.

Breeding a genetically unsound dog is making a sacrifice in a breeding program and it is taking a dangerous and unnecessary risk.

[Mach1girl]

:p :cool:

[Mach1girl]

Ya know, everybody keeps saying, "I dont know of any reputable breeder". I hear this so much (and kudos fo knowing one) But I am beginning to wonder, if everyone that says this phrase actually knows a reputable breeder, then OMG! The reputable breeders out there actually should outweigh the BYBs, and the BYBs may not be the ones contributing to the over population of dogs in our shleters !!

Just a thought!

[Boxerowner]

I don't know of any reputable breeders that do NOT immediately spay/neuter dogs found to be affected with genetic ailments.

Breeding a genetically unsound dog is making a sacrifice in a breeding program and it is taking a dangerous and unnecessary risk.


I totally agree!

[JFrick]

Ya know, everybody keeps saying, "I dont know of any reputable breeder". I hear this so much (and kudos fo knowing one) But I am beginning to wonder, if everyone that says this phrase actually knows a reputable breeder, then OMG! The reputable breeders out there actually should outweigh the BYBs, and the BYBs may not be the ones contributing to the over population of dogs in our shleters !!

Just a thought!

;) Couldn't have said it better myself....

[Serena]

Ya know, everybody keeps saying, "I dont know of any reputable breeder". I hear this so much (and kudos fo knowing one) But I am beginning to wonder, if everyone that says this phrase actually knows a reputable breeder, then OMG! The reputable breeders out there actually should outweigh the BYBs, and the BYBs may not be the ones contributing to the over population of dogs in our shleters !!

Just a thought!

Those of us who know reputable breeders form these contacts by being involved and active within our breed.

I could say that those who don't know reputable breeders should take the time to form some worthy contacts in their breed.

I wouldn't even consider associating with anyone that is damaging to my breed.

When it comes to my breed I am very selective of the company I keep.

[Renee750il]

Wolfsoul:
Reputable breeder is such a loose term these days. Everyone has a different idea on what makes you ethical.

There are some things people said here that would describe me as unethical. While the litter my dog is pregnant with now is my breeder's, I will be starting my own kennel in two years. For one, I don't think both the parents need to be champions to be bred. My dog is not a champion. She has four points towards her championship, and I've been told by a judge that she is BIS quality and breeders that she is Specials quality...She is gorgeous. But she doesn't yet have her championship, and won't until next year. I do think it's important that the dog atleast be pointed, as I like to know that a dog will stand for a judge before I buy a puppy or use a stud, as Belgians can often be difficult in the ring. I also don't think that puppies need to be sold for thousands of dollars. In fact, I wouldn't even buy a puppy for thousands of dollars. For this litter, I get two puppies, and I'm GIVING one of them to a friend of mine. I have several people on my waiting list for her litter in two years that are such great homes I will probably give them a good discount, just as a thankyou for being such a great performance home. It's not a contest to see who can afford the puppies. A rich person can be just as horrible a home as a poor person. Money shouldn't be the main objective in any breeding program. The price is the breeder's perogative, but just because someone sells the puppy for under $1000, it doesn't make them a bad breeder. I will never sell my puppies for over $1000.

I think the dogs should be competed with. Whether or not the dogs are TITLED used to be of importance to me -- however, I've realised that it only matters if the dogs' temperments match up to be bred. A dog's prerequisites really aren't important to me -- in fact, the less working titles a dog has, the better match it is for Visa. She can only be bred to low drive dogs.
The dogs should be screened for any health problems that commonly occur in the breed.
The dogs should be registered and have pedigrees.
The breeder should be involved in rescue

Thank you, Wolfsoul, for stating something very, very important that no one else mentioned.

[Roxy's CD]

Ok, laugh point whatever.

But why should the breeder be involved with a rescue??? Sorry, I just don't get it.

[LabBreeder]

You are wrong. They do not require a tatto or perminate id to get a ofa certificate. You need to read up some more.:)
Pay close attention to the wording
Call your vet and ask.


Does the OFA require dogs to be permanently identified in order to be evaluated or included in its databases?
No, the OFA does not require permanent identification. However, all assigned OFA numbers will clearly indicate whether the dog was permanently identified through the use of the -PI and -NOPI suffixes. It should be noted that the AKC does require the dog to be permanently identified in the form of tattoo or microchip in order to include OFA or CERF data in their database.


http://www.offa.org/hdappbw.pdf -- States that OFA will post preliminary results if: A. The animal is at least 12 months at the time of radiography B. The animal must be permanently identified by microchip or tattoo C. The owner initials the authorization block to release all results.


The second one is what I was talking about mom.:)

[Saje]

Ok, laugh point whatever.

But why should the breeder be involved with a rescue??? Sorry, I just don't get it.

I think it shows they really care about the welfare of animals and that they are dedicated to their breed (if it's a breed rescue). It also shows that they aren't just producing puppies for money and that they are aware of the problems in the pet 'industry' and why it's important to breed ethically.

[corsomom]

I agree, If you dont rescue, dont breed.

[LabBreeder]

Does it have to be with an "official" rescue organization or can the breeder do their own "rescue". Ya know, they find a stray dog, take care of it, vet check, shots and find it a good home.

[Renee750il]

Actually, the best and most complete set of ethics I've ever read on this subject is contained in the aggregate of Love4Pits posts on breeding. She is the standard I measure any breeder against . . .

[Renee750il]

Does it have to be with an "official" rescue organization or can the breeder do their own "rescue". Ya know, they find a stray dog, take care of it, vet check, shots and find it a good home.

Rescue is rescue, whether you're affiliated with an organization or you just take it upon yourself. Just think what would happen if every dog owner rescued one dog . . .

[Saje]

I rescued four! All neutered. Who will rescue me? lol

[Squidbert]

Oh my.. what a heated conversation! :)

Well.. I think that Red and everyone who breeds the way she seems to be breeding are doing a great job in sticking to their morals and ethics. Right to the tee! And really that is wonderful. Now I said seems since I clearly can't know for sure how it's actually taking place.. I mean absolutely no disrespect in any way..

To me it is something they feel so strongly about.. and they follow their morals to the end.. whether or not you agree with their viewpoint, it still deserves respect. My best friend is a devout Christian.. though I don't necessarily believe everything she believes or live the way she does I still respect her for how she is since she follows what she believes right to the bitter end.

However there are others that have opinions, morals, ethics that clearly clash with these views.. Some people think it's ok to breed 2 healthy dogs as pets.. as long as they go to good homes and are well taken care of.. To me saying that you have to go by the breeders code of ethics.. ( I think that's what it was called) is like saying you have to go by the Bible.. I don't think it's fair to just assume the way you do things is always the right way, just because you have some code of ethics to back it up.

Now I'm not saying at all the these breeders who take it so insanely seriously are wrong.. not at all.. I think it's spectacular! I just think there needs to be a little understanding that not everyone is going to have the same code of ethics all the time..


For me I see dogs as mans best friend.. a helper.. a hard worker sometimes and a best friend. I do love all the breeds that have been developed and I love that there are people that keep those breeds intact. But I also think that sometimes the pet/friend purpose of the dogs gets lots in all the jumble.. that sometimes people take making all the breeds completly flawless and perfect a little too seriously.. and some focus sometimes needs to be brought back to making the dog a wonderful pet/worker/friend regardless of whether or not it's perfect in its breed standard. For people who try to make a perfect pet dog I can understand. And for people trying to keep all the breeds intact, I understand.. The people who don't spay/neuter their pets because they're lazy, don't think it's necessary.. don't think the animal is worth it, don't care at all about over population, don't give their pets the love and care they deserve.. those are the people I can't stand to be around. Those are the people I think all this negativity should be directed at..

But this is obviously all just my own opinion.. :)

[LabBreeder]

If every dog owner rescued a dog there probably wouldn't be any left to rescue. The only problem is, it should be every GOOD owner rescuing a dog. It doesn't help if the dog goes from "free roaming street dog with no food/home" to "getting beaten and chained to a tree with no food/water".

[Renee750il]

I rescued four! All neutered. Who will rescue me? lol

Probably Nanook . . . with Sakari, Mikey and Maverick right behind her :D

It doesn't help if the dog goes from "free roaming street dog with no food/home" to "getting beaten and chained to a tree with no food/water".

Those aren't dog owners . . . those are, well, you know what they are ;)

[RedyreRottweilers]

Does the OFA require dogs to be permanently identified in order to be evaluated or included in its databases?
No, the OFA does not require permanent identification. However, all assigned OFA numbers will clearly indicate whether the dog was permanently identified through the use of the -PI and -NOPI suffixes. It should be noted that the AKC does require the dog to be permanently identified in the form of tattoo or microchip in order to include OFA or CERF data in their database.


http://www.offa.org/hdappbw.pdf -- States that OFA will post preliminary results if: A. The animal is at least 12 months at the time of radiography B. The animal must be permanently identified by microchip or tattoo C. The owner initials the authorization block to release all results.


The second one is what I was talking about mom.:)

Ok, so I did it recently, and here is the deal on prelims.....

In order to have the info posted and displayed in the data base, you must do two things:

You must have the dog permanently ID's. Tattoo or chip will do.
You must you MUST check the box to release ALL RESULTS, normal or abnormal.

Any animal can be screened and evaluated by the OFA. Permanent ID is NOT required, however, dogs screened without permanent ID have this noted on their numbers....it will state NOPI at the end of the number. Or PI is the dog IS permanently ID'd.

If you have not visited the OFA's website recently, they have updated it, and it is an incredible pedigree research tool. :D

http://www.offa.org

[Saje]

Probably Nanook . . . with Sakari, Mikey and Maverick right behind her :D


Oh right. They have been so well behaved with their man around :rolleyes: I don't know what I will go home to!

[RedyreRottweilers]

Yep, here is some evidence. What about Rottiegirl? Oh, and as far as Vaccaro goes, I do not in any way condone her breeding practices. But she lost a law suit by default, and it had nothing to do with selling a dog not registered with the CKC.

And yes, there are alot of Rottweilers with ED. That is why a responsible breeder breeds AWAY from it. You know, by not including them. Very easy to do. ALOT of ethical breeders have no problem. But I guess in your case what would you do, get yet ANOTHER bitch and start over. Nope, you are desperate for a litter.

And you never answered, how did your puppies get Parvo?



I believe the rescue I had on my property about 11 mos before this litter brought parvo with it.

There are more things to consider in a breeding than simply the elbow status. You may breed as you wish, but for me, a dog or bitch with one elbow grade 1 does not exclude it from my consideration for breeding at this point.

[RedyreRottweilers]

This is a quote from a great friend and breeder of Rotties.

"I would not breed a dog who tested pos for DJD.
Some people do (certainly not people thinking of the future of the breed).
OFA says DJD is like a fair and still can be bred,but they have also told me (years ago) breeding a dog of Border line and mild is Okay.
When people put alot of money into their dogs and have all their hopes and dreams shattered because the dog did not pass a health clearence,they change the rules to suit them selves.
One of the top winning dogs has DJD II (supositly as there is no record on the OFA site to state other wise)and everyone is breeding to him.Soon no one will be able to breed to anything without these DJD lines in them
Back in the day when we found out about HD and started x-raying for that all Possitive dogs were excluted,DJD dogs should be also.
Another thing they tell you to justify them using DJD dogs is that over 40% of the dogs tested have it so you can't excluded.
Last year.
Normal elbows 462 dogs
indeterminate 0
DJD I 56
DJD II 11
DJD III 3
total 70 bad and 462 passing that is no where near 40%.They also say other countrys allow you to breed dogs with DJD I so we should too.It is a genetic thing and some lines have DJD for 3 generations and still they keep breeding them."

Your friend is entitled to her own views and opinions, as am I.

My statistics come DIRECTLY FROM THE OFA WEBSITE.

And there is no "they say". It is a fact that NO country disallows the breeding of Grade 1 ED individuals. I did not make these regulations. The breed wardens in Germany, Switzerland, etc. did.

[AndrewF]

I rescued four! All neutered. Who will rescue me? lol
ummmm.....no, I won't ask.....


:D

[sportingdogs]

In my opinion, an ethical breeder is one who takes care of their dogs. If they're breeding labradoodles, pugs or mutts, they have to care for their animals as well as possible - they have to provide decent food, a clean living area, thorough vet care and a good partnership relationship with a human.

Finer points - I believe anyone breeding for show or pet homes has an absolute responsibility to make a gentle temperament their first priority. I don't care if the breed was originally intended to kill bears or guard estates, the puppies are going to be living in normal 21st-century homes and all the breed history in the world doesn't justify creating another generation of dangerous dogs. There are more than enough in the world already. The only exceptions are for people who breed exclusively for working dogs - dogs who, if they aren't good enough to work, will not be simply released to the general, unprepared population of would-be pet owners. This is a tiny subsection of the dog world.

I believe that it's possible that breeding mutts or 'pet-quality' dogs is a good thing. It's true that there are many dogs in shelters who need homes, but it's also true that many of those dogs are unsuitable for the majority of available homes. I love all three of my shelter dogs, and have never had any interest in breeding dogs, btw, I just think that playing the numbers game - there are 3 gazillion dogs in the shelter, and that labradoodle just doomed one! - is pointless. That argument behaves as if all dogs are equal. I'd rather have my shelter mutt than any purebred at the local AKC show, but I'd rather spend $1000 for a purebred than $50 for an ill-natured shelter dog.

The breeders who are really destroying dogs are puppy mill operators and the people who breed so-called fighting dogs. These are the dogs who, when they end up in shelters, are the most likely to be unadoptable, unhealthy and nasty. They create the large numbers of puppies and dogs who become unwanted every day. The lazy guy who never got around to neutering his dog, or the woman who wants her kids to experience the wonder of puppies before neutering their pet - they might not be the most responsible of owners but their output is just a drop in the bucket compared to the people who produce thousands of litters a year for pet shops and the people who intentionally produce aggressive dogs for fighting/posturing. The worst 'doodle breeder in the world would blush to be as openly craven and greedy as these two.

Statistics show that it IS those one-time breeders (your "lazy guy") that cumulatively make up the GREATEST population of puppies out there. Sure, ONE guy with an accidental (or out of ignorance) litter of puppies is a drop in the bucket...but multiply that by millions (look at the big picture)..and you've got a LOT OF DOGS. For every responsible owner/breeder, I can show you 20 people that have casually had a litter and sold through newspaper ads to the first caller or gave away without screening..maybe it was five years ago, maybe it was last week, or maybe they have a litter due next month; point is, THEY are the problem...these "breeders" and their ignorant buyers.

[sportingdogs]

I didn't mean that the question of ethics doesn't matter.....I should have phrased it as "What does it matter to Summit what other people's idea of ethics are?

I don't see anything wrong with breeding pets b/c they are nice or pretty. As long as everyone is healthy, go for it....AND, that the puppies will have a good home to go to or stay in the home they were born into. I do think that there are too many dogs in shelters, but I also believe that a lot of these dogs are in shelters b/c people are too concerned with having the perfect dog by "breed standards" and these shelter dogs are not good enough for them.

What I don't believe in is all this breeding to get the perfect dog so that the owner can win a title and get recognition. This to me is all about greed. And this goes back to my last statement about shelter dogs not being good enough for some....

I'm logging off, won't be back on until tomorrow...:) I'm sure I'll have a lot to respond to.

I respectfully disagree with you. Pish, tosh...the people that dump their dogs in shelters don't know the FIRST THING about breed standards...they don't care about "the perfect dog"....that is BS...dogs get dumped in shelters because people buy/adopt on impulse and get more than they bargained for...or they know NOTHING about dog behavior and cannot handle an unruly teenage puppy, or dammit, they just don't CARE about the dog anymore. It has NOTHING to do with show quality dogs, or dogs not being "good enough" for some...

[sportingdogs]

I didn't mean that the question of ethics doesn't matter.....I should have phrased it as "What does it matter to Summit what other people's idea of ethics are?

I don't see anything wrong with breeding pets b/c they are nice or pretty. As long as everyone is healthy, go for it....AND, that the puppies will have a good home to go to or stay in the home they were born into. I do think that there are too many dogs in shelters, but I also believe that a lot of these dogs are in shelters b/c people are too concerned with having the perfect dog by "breed standards" and these shelter dogs are not good enough for them.

What I don't believe in is all this breeding to get the perfect dog so that the owner can win a title and get recognition. This to me is all about greed. And this goes back to my last statement about shelter dogs not being good enough for some....

I'm logging off, won't be back on until tomorrow...:) I'm sure I'll have a lot to respond to.

The owner does not "win a title"...the DOG does. Responsible breeders don't breed to "get the perfect dog"..b/c there is no such thing. Greed?? Let's talk about GREED: backyard breeders counting the cash as it rolls in on their untested, untitled, ill-temperemented (perhaps) Fluff and Muff and then doing it again "next year" because it was just so much fun and they need a new widescreen; commercial breeders who actually DO breed FOR PROFIT...a business...do you think these people care about the IDEAL dog?? Heavens, no!!

A lot of those dogs are in shelters because every third person on your street (for example) decided it would be nice to let Molly have just one litter! Multiply that by the population of one city, one state...the whole country...you get the picture. At least I hope you do.

Showing and breeding well-bred dogs is NOT about GREED. Please speak only of that which you know something about. Apparently you know nothing about showing and proper breeding.

[mjb]

I am not knowledgeable enough about this subject to know the differences between a good breeder and a bad breeder. However, before I got my present dog (a pound puppy), I did talk to some breeders. I got nervous when I would think one was pretty good and then talk to another breeder who would tell me to steer clear of the one I thought was good. I did find one breeder that stood out from all the rest for quite a few reasons. A big part of what impressed me about her was the fact that she did rescue work. She fostered rescues of her breed and of mixes that were partially her breed. She had less than a litter a year. She would put you on a waiting list after she approved you and your home. And after you went through her process and were approved, if you were wanting a puppy sooner, she would lead you to a couple of breeders that she trusted. She even suggested a different breed puppy that would suit my needs that was a more common breed, if I didn't want to wait on one of hers. She didn't know any breeders of that breed to recommend, though. I felt very good about dealing with her.

[sportingdogs]

I am not knowledgeable enough about this subject to know the differences between a good breeder and a bad breeder. However, before I got my present dog (a pound puppy), I did talk to some breeders. I got nervous when I would think one was pretty good and then talk to another breeder who would tell me to steer clear of the one I thought was good. I did find one breeder that stood out from all the rest for quite a few reasons. A big part of what impressed me about her was the fact that she did rescue work. She fostered rescues of her breed and of mixes that were partially her breed. She had less than a litter a year. She would put you on a waiting list after she approved you and your home. And after you went through her process and were approved, if you were wanting a puppy sooner, she would lead you to a couple of breeders that she trusted. She even suggested a different breed puppy that would suit my needs that was a more common breed, if I didn't want to wait on one of hers. She didn't know any breeders of that breed to recommend, though. I felt very good about dealing with her.

Definitely sounds like a responsible breeder! :)

I bred my first litter this year (well, last year technically--born in February); and while I am unable to foster dogs NOW...I spent my first several years involved in my breed DOING rescue, fostering dogs, one after the other. It gave me a lesson in proper placement, contracts, etc... some breeders are unable to foster due to their own dogs...one has to be understanding of that. However, you can volunteer for rescue without actually fostering a homeless dog. I still do transports, educate about the breed, etc.. there is plenty to do in rescue work, not just taking a dog or dogs into your home. When I only had one or two dogs of my own, that was feasible; now it is not. One shouldn't fault a breeder for that

[LabBreeder]

That's the same thing I said in my post. :) I got the quote directly from the OFA website as well.:) But thanks for the pedigree info.


Ok, so I did it recently, and here is the deal on prelims.....

In order to have the info posted and displayed in the data base, you must do two things:

You must have the dog permanently ID's. Tattoo or chip will do.
You must you MUST check the box to release ALL RESULTS, normal or abnormal.

Any animal can be screened and evaluated by the OFA. Permanent ID is NOT required, however, dogs screened without permanent ID have this noted on their numbers....it will state NOPI at the end of the number. Or PI is the dog IS permanently ID'd.

If you have not visited the OFA's website recently, they have updated it, and it is an incredible pedigree research tool. :D

http://www.offa.org

[RedyreRottweilers]

Hi, SD, welcome to Chaz.

:D

[summitview]

Now on to how eveyone says that health screening is so important....Cancer, Heart Disease, Altzheimers (sp?) all runs in my family, so does that mean I should never have children? This goes back to the greed comment I made about how some want the perfect dog (in their eyes). The perfect dog to me has nothing to do with looks or "breed standards", it's the personality. I understand things like 2 Aussie Merle's can't be bred b/c the pups will more than likely be blind and/or deaf, there are certain circumstances, but that's not health screening, that's general knowledge about a breed.

Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....

It's very sad to me that you feel this way and edited by a mod = no name calling Comparing dogs to humans as you've done doesn't work, sorry. Two totally different topics. We aren't euthanizing people by the thousands.

[summitview]

I agree with you there. A dog with a known disease or health problem should not be bred. But all this looking back 6 generations to find faults in the line is just going overboard.

I do believe though that cross breeding different breeds is okay. Nothing at all wrong with a mutt.

Let me add this, I never have and never will breed any dogs. I've thought about it but decided against it.

Pedigree research involving health is crucial. There are some genetic diseases in which dogs can be carriers but not have the actual problem themselves (PRCD for example). Your line could breed clear for generations, but the dogs might be carriers. If you breed these dogs to the wrong pedigree, you can produce effected pups.

You're right, there is nothing wrong with a mutt. I've fostered and rescued many, and currently own one. However, breeding mutts ("designer mixes") is not ethical. There's no real reason to do it other than to produce cute pups to sell, which is wrong.

And as for your last two sentences - let me say I'm glad.

[summitview]

My opinion? I plan to breed. This is my first and will not be my last. I also think of my dogs as "my family". They get treated better most of the time!

:rolleyes:

[summitview]

There are also a lot of other great foods available also. Does any one else have any suggestions for her?
Innova (I'm an EVO fan), Royal Canin, Eagle Pack, Annamaet.

[summitview]

And ethics are all opinion. Everyone has a different one.

You know what people say about opinions....

And no, ethics are not just a matter of opinions. Codes of Ethics are put out by purebred parent clubs and should be adhered to for the sake of the dogs.

[summitview]

And I think your bitch is supposed to be on a puppy food with extras, isn't she? I've never bred so don't know.

I've never fed puppy food once in my life to any dog, pregnant bitch or litter of puppies. The litters I raised were raised on high quality performance adult food and raw, and that's what the mothers were fed.

IMO many breeders don't research nutrition nearly enough. Their puppies do fine, but they could do better!

[summitview]

Ok, laugh point whatever.

But why should the breeder be involved with a rescue??? Sorry, I just don't get it.

No laughing and pointing here. You asked a good question. If you're producing dogs, IMO you should also be involved in helping clean up what other people have irresponsibly produced. I worked in SPCAs for two years, ran my own Siberian rescue, and have volunteered for rescue/SPCA/transport since I ride my bike to the local shelter as a kid.

It sets a good example. It shows that you are truly concerned about your breed as a whole, even the less fortunate, poorly bred dogs.

[summitview]

I think it shows they really care about the welfare of animals and that they are dedicated to their breed (if it's a breed rescue). It also shows that they aren't just producing puppies for money and that they are aware of the problems in the pet 'industry' and why it's important to breed ethically.

Well said.

[summitview]

I agree, If you dont rescue, dont breed.

One of my favorite quotes is this:

If you breed, rescue.
If you don't rescue, don't breed.
If you don't breed, rescue anyway! :D

[summitview]

Does it have to be with an "official" rescue organization or can the breeder do their own "rescue". Ya know, they find a stray dog, take care of it, vet check, shots and find it a good home.

IMO if you are breeding you should be at least somewhat involved in rescue for your particular breed (be it transport, foster care, doing home checks in your region, etc). Though any and all rescue efforts get a big kudos from me.

[summitview]

To me saying that you have to go by the breeders code of ethics.. ( I think that's what it was called) is like saying you have to go by the Bible.. I don't think it's fair to just assume the way you do things is always the right way, just because you have some code of ethics to back it up.

Christians aren't being euthanized by the thousands. Again, people vs dogs is not a legitimate comparison in breeding.

[summitview]

Please speak only of that which you know something about. Apparently you know nothing about showing and proper breeding.

Commenting heavily on areas one is not experienced or educated in really irks me.

[Squidbert]

Christians aren't being euthanized by the thousands. Again, people vs dogs is not a legitimate comparison in breeding.

I'm not comparing humans vs dogs.

I'm comparing two different belief systems..

Totally different.

[Roxy's CD]

Ohhh kay... I get it now.

That does make sense.

I think a lot of people naively breed, and most of them I think immediately realize their mistake. Others, like the quick easy cash and continue...

[sportingdogs]

Hi, SD, welcome to Chaz.

:D

Thanks RR! This looks like a neat forum!

[sportingdogs]

Commenting heavily on areas one is not experienced or educated in really irks me.

Yep, it does, doesn't it? Hi Summit. I like your posts so far.