When should a dog be allowed to bite

[misticaleclipse]

Its never going to happen in our society, but its very interesting.

http://www.samthedogtrainer.com/Articles_When%20Should%20A%20Dog%20Bite.htm

I like this quote

I also don't believe that we should expect every dog to like everybody. That is unnatural, and I don't think that the public should expect that every dog should be petted, interacted with, liked, and/or handled by any person that comes up to interact with your dog without your express permission.

[SalemWitchChild]

Kota is aloud to play bite. Thats about it.

[JennSLK]

I agree with that link 100%

[Roxy's CD]

Yeppers, The only thing I don't really agree with is: allowing a dog to bite if you pick up a tennis ball and they accidentally bite you. I understand that they didn't mean to bite YOU, but they should respect the fact that I have the ball.

[misticaleclipse]

yes i noticed the ball one, but it sounded like he meant it as an accident? Like you show the dog the ball and then right when he reaches for it you twice your arm and he gets you instead of the ball. Thats the way that i understood it.

[Roxy's CD]

Yes, that is how they meant it.

What I'm saying is to me that's not acceptable. Yes, it was an accident and they didn't meanto bite me BUT they should've been respectful to ME, the alpha having the ball in the first place.

My dogs NEVER try to grab anything out of my hand unless I say "take it". Otherwise the rule is, I'm in charge of EVERYTHING, if I want you to have it you'll get it.

[Renee750il]

I agree with most of it, in principle. I do think, however - and some of you have heard me rant about this before - that he misuses and over-uses the terms 'aggressive' and 'aggression.' Most of the scenarios and temperament profiles he cites are defensive rather than aggressive. Dogs bred and used for law enforcement work aren't channeling aggressive temperaments so much as having their defensive instincts directed. Even a fear biter is unlikely to be aggressive; fear biting is a defensive reaction - misplaced, perhaps, but definitely defensive. A "vicious dog" is a dog who bites because it just wants to bite, not because it is overprotective or defensive or backed into a corner. A truly vicious dog is a rare animal.

[cindr]

I really do not beleive in allowing any dog to bite at any time. It is not a safe practise in our world today. Why????

1) Law Suits

2) breed bans and bites taken out of contex

It is up to us the dog owner to provide a safe home and enviroment for the dogs. I will be damed if my dog has to save and or protect me. Sure that is a natural for any dog to do. Although I personaly would put my dog up and out of danger right away. Then I personally will take care of the situation. I am not a very kind person when you attack my personal interests let alone my dogs. You know the saying " Don't worry about the dog!" Worry about the owner!"" Well that is the way it is here.

As a matter of fact I was approached by our maid when I was a kid. Shirly states to me. Your cousin came by and began to hit Dutchess (DOBERMAN) With a shoe. I looked at Shirly and said WHAT? Why? She said because Dutchess would not shake a paw with him.

Well I happened to bump into this cousin of mine and go figure he did not like the shoe I hit him with. I as well told him at no time was he to interact with any of my animals at any time. If in which he does we will have another discussion. I do not beleive in abuse and if I feel that you are abusing an animal get this. You will be injured some way or another. Now I tend to have legal actions placed on the individual. Charges go well in that area here in Canada. So nope not at any time will my dogs be used as a weapon and or a safety net for me. They are my buddies and my best freinds and will be treated as such

[Boemy]

I agree with parts of it, but not with this part:

1.) Legitimate self defense: includes biting as a result of teasing, threatening, entering territory, abuse, taking toys or food from dogs you don't own or know, defending people from criminals, and other examples of self defense.

Defending people from criminals is a FAR CRY from biting because a toy is taken away. Teasing and taking food/toys is frequently done by children who don't know any better. I don't blame the dog for its instincts, but it is the owner's reponsibility to train the dog so it won't bite in these circumstances (or not to allow such a situation to come up by carefully monitoring when the dog gets toys and food), because if it does then the dog will quite likely it will be put to sleep.

That said, people who hit or otherwise abuse dogs have it coming when they're bitten!

[RD]

MY dogs are allowed to bite in self-defense, in defense of me, and in defense of their house. They are NOT allowed to resource-guard - while they will not allow strangers to take objects from them, they will walk/run away with it rather than bite. They are NOT allowed to threaten/bite a friendly stranger that I have invited inside/closer to me. They ARE allowed to bite someone who is threatening and too close to me.

I do know a lot of people who simply let their dog pick and choose who they want to behave aggressively** towards. They say the dog is a keen judge of character and can sniff out "bad people". While I do trust my dog's judgment, I ultimately make the decisions and if I am okay with someone, I want my dog to chill out. Even if he doesn't like them or trust them, I expect him to be obedient and not bite them. He can give them the evil eye, growl and otherwise express all the disapproval he wants, but he better remain in that sit-stay.

**I agree with Renee about dogs being labeled "aggressive" far too often . . . But, ultimately, aggressive isn't a label for the DOG, it is a label for the behavior. Snarling, charging, barking and biting is aggressive behavior; whether it is in the name of defense, fear, whatever. It's all aggression with one goal in mind - to make something threatening/annoying/frightening go AWAY.

[BostonBanker]

When would I consider it okay for my dog to bite? If either she or I were being attacked. And that's it.

My dog is out and about with me pretty much all day, and any aggression would be a major issue. Anybody can walk up to her and take a raw bone away from her. She may try to hold on to it if you don't tell her drop it, but she won't growl or bite. Anybody can go into my house or car without an issue. Kids can crawl all over her, strangers can reach out and pet her, and she would never bite while trying to snatch an object out of your hand.

I have no issues with dogs, including mine, who use proper dog communication with each other (a person can take anything from Meg's mouth, but she will guard valued items from other dogs), but when she is in human society, she needs to follow our rules, and using her teeth is not okay.

[DemitriousK]

Let me share a story about a dog named Dusty. Dusty was one of my best friends fathers dogs when I was between 18 and 23 or so. I would come over with him to his parents house and Dusty and I would have the times of our lives. We'd run all over the back livingroom wrestling (no really he'd tru to knock me over with a butt-bump and I would toss him around the room (airborne, literally) or grab one leg and roll him over, tail wagging the entire time). We'd tumble, and play for hours. Make no mistake about it -- this dog loved me, and would go crazy when he saw it was me at the door!

Interestingly he was also a trained attack dog. His father could give one word and Dusty would go for the throat (I have this on faith, I've never seen it.)

One day, the friends parents were out of town, and we came over to water some plants feed some birds, etc. The friend was out in the back yard and I was in the house with the dog :D We were having our normal good time when all of a sudden Dusty bit me in the face. There was a sharp growl, and a quick bite.

Dusty bit me in the chin! The strange thing about it was that after it happened Dusty's behavior was not aggressive, the dog was pleading with me to forgive it! Everything about his manner after it happened just oozed with "oh my God I'm so sorry dont be mad dont hate me I didnt mean to!" Had I not had a beard at the time I probably would have lost all of the skin from my chin, but because I did have the beard I only had 4 gashes and lost some blood -- It was superficial and looked a lot worse than it was.

Fast forward 6 months. Dusty started breathing harder, grew lethargic. Turns out dusty had cancer. The vet removed a cist from his side (no kidding, they saved it in a jar) the size of an over ripened grapefruit.

The two things I know about being bitten are this: A) I touched a spot that hurt him so bad that he lost control (think temporary insanity), and B) with that dogs training - and the very very close range at which this all happened - had he meant to hurt me I would not be alive to tell this story today.

P.S.

Dusty is still alive and well years after the cancer was removed.

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

I really do not beleive in allowing any dog to bite at any time. It is not a safe practise in our world today. Why????

1) Law Suits

2) breed bans and bites taken out of contex

It is up to us the dog owner to provide a safe home and enviroment for the dogs. I will be damed if my dog has to save and or protect me. Sure that is a natural for any dog to do. Although I personaly would put my dog up and out of danger right away. Then I personally will take care of the situation. I am not a very kind person when you attack my personal interests let alone my dogs. You know the saying " Don't worry about the dog!" Worry about the owner!"" Well that is the way it is here.

As a matter of fact I was approached by our maid when I was a kid. Shirly states to me. Your cousin came by and began to hit Dutchess (DOBERMAN) With a shoe. I looked at Shirly and said WHAT? Why? She said because Dutchess would not shake a paw with him.

Well I happened to bump into this cousin of mine and go figure he did not like the shoe I hit him with. I as well told him at no time was he to interact with any of my animals at any time. If in which he does we will have another discussion. I do not beleive in abuse and if I feel that you are abusing an animal get this. You will be injured some way or another. Now I tend to have legal actions placed on the individual. Charges go well in that area here in Canada. So nope not at any time will my dogs be used as a weapon and or a safety net for me. They are my buddies and my best freinds and will be treated as such


I totally agree w/ what you did to your cousin. My little sister had a friend over (actually...he invited himself over) and my lab was licking his arm, and he told it no, because he didn't want the dog lick him (understandable) so I didn't say anything of it (although, I get this feeling in the pit of my stomache when people correct MY dog) but the dog (Candi) continued to lick him, and he picked up a rock, and threw it at her. I grabbed the boy by the arm (this really suprised me, and I shouldn't have done it being about 5yrs older than the boy) and I told him to stay away from my dog, and never to touch her again...(I was crying because it really upset me that someone would hurt MY dog in MY yard) and I told him to go home, and then my sister threw a rock at him when he was riding his bike out of the driveway. (That was kind or funny, but it wouldn't have been if it had hit him... as we would've gotten in big trouble). He never came back, so I suppose he figured out that people weren't going to mess w/ my dog if I had anything to say about it. Another time my Min Pin, Sparky who I got from a neighbor (he was thrown in their yard from a passing truck :() was in the yard, and he normally didn't leave, but some kids were walking by, and called him to pet him (I didn't think much of it, as 2 of the girls were the neighbors who'd given the dog to me) and they started petting him, and walked off, but then one of the boys called him over to him, and when he came he kicked the dog, and started laughing! I couldn't believe my eyes, but then one of the girls who'd given him to me called him over and picked him up, and then threw him into the ditch!!! :mad: I was REALLY mad by then, and I started screaming at them, obviously they didn't realize I was there, because as soon as they saw me they ran. I started crying, and went and picked up Sparky and told my mom what happened, and she called up the kid's parents, and they all had to come over and say sorry. That wasn't good enough for me, but at least they knew better than to EVER do that to my dog again because after that they totally avoided me. I HATE animal abuse, and I can't stand people who hurt animals....IMO anyone who intentionally hurts a dog, has whatever's coming to them. (Generally being bitten by the dog).

[casablanca1]

That's one heck of a list, and I think it's laughable. He includes pretty much every circumstance under which a dog who isn't mentally unstable will bite, from injury to frustration, and then sums up with a grand "all other bites should be regarded as aggression."

It is very easy to justify a dog's aggressive behavior. They usually have some 'trigger' and if you can find a way to avoid that 'trigger' they'll be ok - until they find another reason to bite. I think a bite from a common, everyday dog (ie, not a schutzhound or police/guard dog) is understandable and appropriate in two circumstances - 1) he's very sick/injured, 2) if he or his owner is very clearly, very unmistakable physically threatened. All other bites, from dogs who nip kids to make them go away to dogs who bite owners who are holding the ball out of reach, are misbehavior and need to be dealt with.

[Renee750il]

I certainly wouldn't have faulted Dixie's MinPin for biting the kids in the situation she described! And it would be surprising if the poor dog didn't have some serious trust issues with kids after that. That kind of thing is one reason I watch kids like a hawk when they're near my dogs. People tend to think I'm watching the dogs, but I'm not . . . I'm keeping an eye on the kids. Kids are much more unpredictable than dogs. And far more gratuitously cruel.

[gdsgregory]

I really do not beleive in allowing any dog to bite at any time. It is not a safe practise in our world today. Why????

1) Law Suits

2) breed bans and bites taken out of contex

It is a safe practice in our world today just maybe not in your country.

It is up to us the dog owner to provide a safe home and enviroment for the dogs. I will be damed if my dog has to save and or protect me.

You obviously are priviliged to live in a relatively safe country, I personally will be damned if I am going to put the life of my dogs ahead of the lives of my wife and daughter.
Dont get me wrong I love my dogs very much but I live in a country with a very high violent crime rate and until I got my two filas my house was being attacked every three weeks or so whether it was occupied or not despite having burglar alarms, a steel security cage, floodlights a security patrol a 6 foot wall around the perimeter and a gate which is locked 24 hours a day.
Since my guys have been patrolling the property over the last 2 years there have been only 2 attempts on the property both of which resulted in severe injuries to the criminal involved which subsequently gained my dogs much praise and admiration from the security services upon their arrival.

So "should" a dog be allowed to bite to protect its territory? I believe yes and that governments "should" allow them to do so.

[Renee750il]

Gregory, your experience reminds me of one a girl told me about.

Her grandmother lives in Miami, Florida, and she'd been the victim of three home invasion burglaries in a year . . . in broad daylight. And the perpetrators would walk by her house and tell her they were coming back again.

The grandmother adopted a pair of adult male Filas.

The people who formerly threatened her now cross the street to avoid passing her yard ;)

Evidently the local cops think it's quite amusing too.

[casablanca1]

That's a good point, it is a relative thing to some extent. You can't fault that use of dogs to guard a house or a family from legitimate threats. My only thing is, it's awful easy for people to misinterpret bratty, undisciplined behavior as good guard dog behavior. I've met too many people who think their charging, stalking, growling dog is just doing his/her job, never apparently realizing that a good guard dog doesn't do that to EVERYONE it sees. A lot of people are living with false assurances that their Lab is on the job just because he's rushed every single person who walks past their house while the kid's out on his trike.

[Renee750il]

Sometimes, too, Gregory, it's not necessarily a case of putting your dogs' lives on the line for you or your family. Your Filas are far better suited to handle a violent human and come out unscathed than your wife and daughters are. I've yet to see a human being who is quicker than a Fila, especially one on full alert, and the same is true for most dogs. The sight of a large dog in full protection mode tends to do something to us humans on a very primitive level . . . very few humans can react other than to try to flee.

[gdsgregory]

My only thing is, it's awful easy for people to misinterpret bratty, undisciplined behavior as good guard dog behavior. I've met too many people who think their charging, stalking, growling dog is just doing his/her job, never apparently realizing that a good guard dog doesn't do that to EVERYONE it sees.

Some very good points Renee and Casablanca and the one that I quoted above has a particular relevance to a friend of mine just 2 weeks or so ago.
She is a young single female living alone not far from me and because of this she purchased a Rottweiler from Europe and imported him. Sadly she has little experience (if any) in mollossers and his training left alot to be desired = "a charging stalking growling dog". So what happens? She had some workers in the house and had to lock the dog up as it was out of control, yep you guessed it, the one time she needed the dog to protect her from the workers (who otherwise I am sure would not have caused her any problem) it was locked up. Pointless having the dog at all.

Also to agree with Renee, we have a saying in the UK - "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" so I am happy with my 300 pounds of prevention patrolling my yard while I hope that they will not again have to be "the cure".

A well trained well socialized, loved dog has no substitute.

[Ashlea]

Dixie, personally I would have broken those little sh*ts fingers.
Lilly h as been abused, she is snippy towards strangers that crowd her. I allow that, she has to feel as if she has some say as to what happens to her. I tell people to let her come to them and if they continue to crowd they get a sharp bite on their hand or ankle. If you are not bright enough to listen to a clear warning spoken in your home langauge I will let my dog follow it up.

A child at the training centre I worked at after repeated warnings from me had Lilly cornered and was trying to hit her with a stick. I grabbed her and yanked her so hard by the arm I swear I heard her shoulder pop, she got it right in her face from me, I practically screamed at her, mind you I had asked nicely twice, told firmly twice and shouted once, she has a thing for ignoring adults. Needless to say she has never gone near my dog again.

I am waiting for her to mess with my nephew again when I am there.