Redyre - Update, Roxy's Retrieve LOL

[Roxy's CD]

Ok, so, we've been practicing a couple of things: One, getting a good "grab", I've been holding the bar up and she'll jump up and grab it...

Well, she did start to get into the habit of kicking it, and chasing it along the hardwood. I thought ****, it's gonna be impossible to get her out of that. ARG!

But, after three times, she did a somewhat better grab and as soon as she did "YES!", and everytime after that she's been grabbing, no more kicking, at least on purpose.

I've stopped saying "come" and just say "yes" to encourage her to come back quickly.

So here's the link to the vid, and I guess we'll see what my coach thinks tomorrow! Thanks a lot again.

Turn your volume down, lots of loud "yeses!" LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obJdgFTM9eY

[LabBreeder]

very cool! :) Yay Roxy!!!

What were you saying after the clicker to get her to sit beside you? I couldn't quite catch it.

[RedyreRottweilers]

OMG YOU ROCK GIRL!!!!!

Can't wait to hear your feed back from tomorrow.

:D

[Roxy's CD]

Clicker? I didn't have a clicker, I think you're talking about me slapping myleg! LOL. Swing, it's my command for "finish", so she when she's in front, she goes into heel position.

Was it good Redyre?!?! LOL, did ya hear all my "YESES!" LOL

I'll let you know what my coach thinks of it tomorrow. *crosses fingers*. It's funn too because once Roxy learns something, she usually goes through a stubborn stage (I've heard that it's a rottie thing) and she'll refuse to do it. Nothing, not the best treat in the world could do it. But I find the retrieve to be a lot like the go outs and she really seems to enjoy it.

It's amazing cuz last Wednesday, at our lesson, we were forcing the dumbell in her mouth, her head was shying away... She was dropping it, not holding it properly.. it was just not good.. and three days of Redyre method.. and voila! In my not so expert opinion I think she's doin darn good! LOL

[RedyreRottweilers]

THAT is the difference between REWARDING the behavior you want, and trying to BRIBE the dog to work for food.

:D

I am so proud of your progress, and I can't wait to hear what your instructor has to say.

When you are ready, I'll help you teach her to use a "touch stick" to teach the drop on recall. :D

[Roxy's CD]

Ok, so I'm very disappointed in my trainer. We just got back from her lesson. She asked me how the "dumbell" thing was going. I explained to her that forcing the dumbell in Roxy's mouth was not working. By Friday, as soon as the dumbell came out she shut down. Refused to work, shied her head away, and wanted no part in it.

So I explained that I got some advice from a friend on the internet. A friend that had also once used the above technique and has switched to this new technique. She immediately got "crusty". She asked me to explain what we did.

1. Looking at the dumbell got a reward. (after she understood)
2. Touching the dumbell got a reward.
3. Moving away from me to touch the dumbell got a reward.
4. Putting her mouth on the bar,
5.Picking it up and bringing it to me (holding until I gave the release command)
6. To finally, consistently and HAPPILY retrieving the dumbell.

She told me that it is called a FORCED RETRIEVE. Which means that dogs that are not bred for retrieving need to be forced. (Ugh). And that by making it a game and fun, it will take me 2 YEARS to get her to do it consisitently. She stated two methods: Forcing the dumbell in her mouth and the "ear pinch". So, I understand why she is angry. She told me to do something, and I told her it didn't work but another technique did. I'm very disappointed. I've been very happy with my coach up until last week when she mentioned the use of the "ear pinch" if she didn't have it down pat until next week.

So after her lecture, I said, here I'll just show you. So, like in the video, not as far though I quickly show her, praying that Roxy will comply regardless of being in a less comfortable environment than at home. She does! She happily retrieves and comes back to me holding the dumbell, and sits in front.

My trainer was very skeptical. We'll see when we go into the room where we train.

So, we messed around with agility for a bit and than she asks me to show her at a further distance, about 15 feet. She was a little bit slow to grab it, but she took off to retrieve and came gladly back holding the dumbell tightly. She says do it again. So we do it again, same thing. Ok, that was good. So my trainer admits that she has picked it up very quickly. She also states that the way she does it takes a good 6 months to get a good retrieve. So, I must be pushing her very hard to have gotten that good of a retrieve in a week. (really it was only 3 days...) I don't understand.

We go to school for the plain fact that Roxy likes to learn. She really does. Because she's so good at it, I've been hoping we could go to some agility trials. She's also quite good at obedience, very focused, it's just not very fun, I find it to be mundane! LOL. If Roxy doesn't want to retrieve, I could care less. The fact that the method Redyre told me to try, has got her to actually LIKE the dumbell. She takes off like a bullet when I tell her "take it!" and even though she is still somewhat goofing around at the pick up, it's not too serious.

I really don't think I've burnt her out. I know sometimes she get's bored or frusterated, but after I started using Redyre's method, it was fun! She got happy when she saw the dumbell out, she ENJOYS it. It's almost like playing fetch with a big of obedience (wait, command for take it, and her return to front) As you can see in the video, her tails wagging, she's having fun! Just how I want her training to be.

I think my coach was just upset that I used someone elses method. She did say at the end that her retrieve is excellent for a dog that's only been working on it for a week, (I didn't say well only a couple of days really. LOL) It upset me though that she made it sound like she would never get it, if I continued to do it this way. After Roxy showed her that she got it. Than it was I was burning her out, because no dog can "figure out" that quickly the retrieve.

*sigh* It was a bit of a rant and I am still upset, but I know deep down that Roxy isn't burnt out. I know that the way we do the retrieve she enjoys. If it's not good enough for her to go to obedience shows than whatever, that wasn't my intentions in the first place for going to school.

[JennSLK]

Red can you please explain the touch stick method for a down?

[whatszmatter]

You go back and tell her that you're just learning the retrieve and your dog doesn't need to be consistent at it yet. I've seen dogs doing motivational retrieves and do them extremely well, in fact its how I train mine. It didn't take me 2 years, it took me about 1 week, 5-10 minutes a night to do short 10-15 foot retrieves with a sit in front. Of course there's more to the exercise than that.

Any dog that is trained motivaitonally at first can have some force used later, but the big difference is that it was taught motivationally. If your dog isn't being consistent you can use some force to make it better if its really a big issue to you, and it won't affect the dog negatively because the exercise itself was taught in a "fun" drive with the dog.

Dogs that are taught with force right off the bat have nothing to fall back on. In trials you can see dogs fall apart from the stress of just seeing the dumbell. Those dogs may retrieve consistently, but they lose in other areas cause they're stressed too much.

Dogs trained thru drive see dumbell exercises as a chance to have fun. Some dogs do not have the drive to do it that way though so that could be a problem.

[RedyreRottweilers]

It is very hard for some traditional trainers to get their mind around positive methods.

But, as with your instructor, it's hard for them to deny how it works when the evidence is right in front of their eyes.

Keep up your work. You will prove to her it DOES work, and she will have to eat her hat.

;)

No time now, jenn, but will post on how to shape for the touch stick later this evening.

[JennSLK]

Thanx Red. I want to sart Jazz early even though she whontdo competitive OB untill after she has her CH.

[GSDlover_4ever]

Red, so all you do is reward the dog everytime he comes closer to picking it up? I am very interested in learning new techniques (more positive). I want to learn the stick thing too, like Jenn.

[RedyreRottweilers]

CHeck out this thread, GSD, this is where I explained how to shape the retrieve.

:D

Let me know if you have any questions.

[AusCatDogs_4Ever]

Awwww, that was awesome! Good girl, Roxy! *Claps hands* :D

[Roxy's CD]

LOL... Thanks aus! *Roxy takes a bow* HAHA

[RedyreRottweilers]

oops, THIS thread....

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28518

[GSDlover_4ever]

Red, what thread are you talking about?? :confused:

EDIT: You posted it the same time I posted. Oops!!!

[GSDlover_4ever]

Thanks Red. :D