Emma and Jazz

[JennSLK]

Ok s otoday they did something they have never done before. Jazz snaped at Emma over a raw hide. The alpha role has now gone to Jazz from Emma so maybe she is just proving it? I took theraw hide away from jazz.

She;s never done it before. Should I be worried?

[RedyreRottweilers]

1) It should be clear that in the long run, Jazz is likely to be the dominant one between these 2. To that end, you should be reinforcing Jazz as the dominant partner, not sabotaging her efforts to assert herself.

You can NOT make dog society a democracy. It will never be, and if you try to equalize the 2 partners, you can create a disaster down the road.

What *I* would have done is correct Emma, and remove her from the situation.

I don't necessarily think you should be worried, but you should be handling this differently, and truthfully, interfering as little as possible.

[JennSLK]

OK thanx Red. I wasnt sure if it was a dominance thing or a agression thing. They are playing nice now.

I just didnt want either of them to get away with it if it was a agression thing.

[JennSLK]

OK thanx Red. I wasnt sure if it was a dominance thing or a agression thing. They are playing nice now.

I just didnt want either of them to get away with it if it was a agression thing.

[GSDlover_4ever]

I agree with Red. Dogs have to work it out themselves, and you should not intervene unless your position as leader is challenged or the dogs get into a fight where they can really get hurt.

[RedyreRottweilers]

There will be aggression. And noise. And body slamming. and lots of teeth showing and posturing if I guess right.

ALL this you should ignore. If you DO address it, the SUBORDINANT dog is the one you should correct.

NOT the dominant dog.

I tell people that most of the time the best thing to do is IGNORE IT unless real injury is occurring.

[Ash47]

So Red,
Even if you have had a dog for a long time before getting another, you should allow the new dog to be dominant if it so wishes? I was always under the impression that whichever dog has been around longest should be alpha.

[GSDlover_4ever]

So Red,
Even if you have had a dog for a long time before getting another, you should allow the new dog to be dominant if it so wishes? I was always under the impression that whichever dog has been around longest should be alpha.

Whichever dog is more dominant will be alpha. Usually if that happens I keep my dogs seperate. If Hondo (my little GSD pup) is an alpha male when he grows up he then I would have to keep him and Caza (my 3 year old) seperated (I dont like dealiing with dog fights). When you bring a new member into the pack the whole system shifts and members must be re-positioned.

[JennSLK]

It depends on the dogs.

I have a submisive beagle and a posibly dominate doberman

[Doberluv]

I disagree. You can't tell that a dog is dominant because it takes a toy from another or because it snaps at the other dog. Often, the more submissive dog is the one who does those things. It's ridiculous to try and determine who is "dominant" and who is not. It changes, depending on what interest a particular dog has in some possession. A very secure, "dominant" dog sometimes couldn't care less about something being taken from it so people assume that's the submissive one because he let the so called "dominant" dog take his toy. Some of the more dominant dogs will act submissively in an attempt to take a possession from another. I've seen a dog sidle up to another one, keeping it's body low, wagging, licking the face of the other....doing a belly crawl (all very submissive gesturing)....makes up to the dog and then subtly takes a toy and the other dog hardly notices. Which one do you think is dominant?

If you want to look at things as "dominant," you could say that my Chihuahua girl is dominant when my Dobe gets on the couch and by accident touches her with his foot or something. She growls until he moves over more. My boy Chi is dominant when it comes to toys. My Doberman couldn't give a rip about his toy but little Jose will carry his toy and make a low rumble when Lyric walks past him. My Doberman is "dominant" when it comes to play. He sometimes wants to play and Jose doesn't so he keeps bugging him to play. He's pushy. So, is that dominant? Or is Jose dominant because he refuses to play at that particular time? Who's the boss? Oh, how about food? Lyric, my Dobe couldn't care less if any dog gets into his bowl, but Jose would probably growl at Lyric if they weren't seperated when eating. So, if Lyric came walking up to Jose's bowl, would he be dominant because he would be antagonizing Jose or would Jose be dominant for growling and running Lyric off his bowl?

I also disagree that you should let them fight it out. Who's is charge of the group? Your dogs or you? I have four dogs and have had multiple dogs off and on for a very long time and I never let them decide between themselves. If there is the slightest inkling of a problem, they do not react violently in the least. They know that I will fix it. I'm their leader and I make the rules. No fighting what so ever is allowed and I never consider dominance between them one way or the other. They are not living on their own in a pack in the wild. They are living with me, a human and they are domestic. They are perfectly capable of learning the boundaries I have put out for them. I never have any fights. If there is the slightest grumble over a toy, the toy is removed and I let them know that they're pushing the limit with a vocalization. And that ends it right there.

About two weeks ago, I took on another dog. (long story) And this dog has a possessive guarding issue when it comes to treats being handed out and the person who is patting her at the time. She'll snap at the other dog if he comes near. She has snapped at Lyric when treats were being dispensed and a few times when being petted by my son or me. Would you call her dominant? I call it insecure and more on the beta level. Secure, dominant "alphas" don't do that. Lower ranking animals tend to squabble to work up the social ladder. An alpha doesn't need to. So, I have simply been having her sit/stay in order to get a treat and have not reinforced that behavior...no payoff for it. If I were to reward that pushy behavior, it would continue. I have been rewarding her when she shows behavior which is acceptable to me and I have been having her earn things she wants. She's been pushy about shoving in front of me to get out the door. Is that dominant? I see it as having never been taught manners. Now she's much, much better because I simply showed her what I needed her to do in order that the door be opened....stay back so I can get to the door, sit/wait until released. She's coming along just great.

So, bottom line....my advice is to not get all bogged down with dominance theory and who's alpha... and contributing every conceivable behavior to those things and start reinforcing behavior you want and preventing any payoff for behavior you don't like. Why make things more complicated than need be? Dogs learn by reinforcement. Reward pushy and you'll get pushy.

You can also avoid giving high value toys when they're all together. Save those for when they are not together. You can't always determine accurately who started something. You can miss subtle pre-ambles to things. It's far better IMO to make the rules and boundaries yourself and not leave it up to them.

[DanL]

Doberluv, Jose sounds a lot like our pug Bruzer. Very vocal if anyone comes near him when he's got food. To the point that he'll drop what he's guarding to growl better, then the other more dominant dog (Gunnar or Midnite) will simply pick up the bone and walk away, and Bruzer stands there with this "duh" look on his face. The only other time Bruzer acts aggressive at all is when Gunnar is pushing him while playing. Gunnar will walk over to Bruzer and use his paw/forearm to push Bruzer to the ground and hold him there, which Bruzer doesn't like at all. We break that up when it happens.

We have an interesting situation with Midnite (who is 12 years old) and Gunnar. Midnite has been alpha ever since we got Gunnar, but that appears to be changing. He doesn't back down from her anymore when she does things that caused him to back down before- baring teeth, etc. When they were eating, if she finished 1st, and he was still working on a bone or something, she would get about 20' away, watch him, and then rush him to make him run and see if he'd drop something. Now she tries to rush him, and he just looks at her and keeps on eating. He's also being more pushy with her when he wants her to go in a certain direction- like he's herding her. She's going deaf, and if I call her to come in and she doesn't hear me, or refuses (not unusual), he'll run off the porch and get in her face barking, trying to push her back towards me. A couple months ago, this would not have worked, she would have laid into him, but not now, she goes the other way to avoid him. I think it all started to change when they were playing one day and she nipped him on the rump when he ran by, and he got in her face and really laid into her, barking with an intensity we rarely hear. She backed down, and ever since then, he's been growing in his role. We keep a close eye on the dynamics between all of them to make sure no one gets hurt.

[GSDlover_4ever]

When will people realize that a dog is a dog. You CANNOT train insticts out of a dog. Instead of ignoring pack behavior, as if it doesnt exist :rolleyes: , use it to your advantage.

[misticaleclipse]

I've always been confused about the alpha theory between two or more dogs because so many people say that WE are the alpha. If there is true then what we say goes and there is no alpha dog right?

It just feels strange. So I'm the alpha, one dog is aggresive with another dog, as the alpha I punish the less dominant dog? Is that how it would work in a dog pack?

[Beanie]

I've always been confused about the alpha theory between two or more dogs because so many people say that WE are the alpha. If there is true then what we say goes and there is no alpha dog right?

I agree! How can WE be the alpha and yet have another alpha?! Is it more accurate, perhaps, to say we are the alpha, and one dog (or two, possibly) is the beta..? Or even that the dogs may be trying to force another dog into the position of omega? If that's the case, I certainly wouldn't allow it to happen, as in wolves the omega gets the equivalent of their lunch money stolen and sand kicked in their face everyday! ;P


But I think people maybe confuse dominance and alpha status... they are not necessarily the same. Dominance really has more to do with feeding rights and breeding rights than anything else, when it all boils down (though curiously, even if an older dog is dominant over a younger pup - which is true - the younger pup will still get fed first in hard times.) yet it's just not "cut and dry."
I think Doberluv has a lot of good points on that aspect... another example would be my sister Eli's sheltie (Happy) doesn't like her roommate's border collie (Lacy) in her bedroom - but only sometimes. It would be more accurate to say Happy doesn't like Lacy in "his room" when he doesn't want her to be. Like siblings. Sometimes you want to play with them... sometimes you want them to go away and get out of your room! Is Happy being dominant over Lacy, or is Happy just showing dominance at that moment?

There's also the whole deal with how observing wolf packs in captivity (which is where most of the popular notions of packs and pack hierarchy came from) and observing wolf packs in the wild (which is becoming easier and easier) yields different results and ideas about their society...


You are right, GSDlover - dogs are dogs. But dogs are not wolves! Dogs are not even "domestic wolves!" Dog packs are not wolf packs. There are several different species of wolf, each of which have different social structures (some slightly different, some vastly different) and these different wolves attributed to different species of dog. And on THAT level, since different species of dog were created by using FURTHER selective breeding...
And because they are domesticated and have been for at least 15,000 years, their social structures ALSO have to do with the social structures of humans!
How, then, should we define our dogs by wolves when they are not the same? We can certainly take a few cues from their ancestors in determining "where they're coming from," so to speak, but understanding a wolf is still different than understanding a dog.
When will people realize that a dog is a dog? =>

I hope that all makes sense... I think the social structure of dog packs, and especially dog packs that include us as humans, still has quite a ways to go before we unearth everything... if we ever even do unearth everything.

[Doberluv]

If anyone is interested in getting a more realistic look at dominance, take a look at these links. The last one is very informative regarding wolf packs, not that our dogs are wolves, but even wolf packs and heirarchy isn't as cut and dry as you may think.

My stance that I don't consider dominance as a trait in my dogs stands. Dominance is a relationship, not a characteristic or trait per say. The relationship can be manipulated between dog and human in such a way where dominance is a non issue. I've had a lot of dogs for 45 years and have never had fights between them or challenges made toward me. I've always had dogs with good manners and who are reasonably trained. They follow my rules and boundaries without my having to dominate them, merely guide them and reinforce behavior I like.

So, to say that you can't fight instinct, well, that's true. You can't. But dominance, to my way of thinking is not instinct, but something which comes about as a necessity when something else is lacking in the relationships or interactions. When there is a balance in place, there is no need for multiple dogs in a family to establish anything between themselves. They are not hunting or breeding (in most cases) and that's the only situation where a firm heirarchal establishment is useful and the rest of the time, wolves are not even in a pack as such. Wolves, much less dogs do not concern themselves with anything else. Any squabbles between dogs are nothing more than normal squabbles that our own children have over a toy or some other thing. Lack of training, lack of boundaries, no guidlines will produce unwanted behavior. "Reward pushy and you get pushy." (a good quote I saw once) Reinforce behavior you want and it will be more likely to be repeated. Set the stage so the dog has a hope to succeed. It has nothing to do with dominance.


http://www.showdogs.co.za/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_dominance_alpha_status.htm

[GSDlover_4ever]

Beanie, when did I say dogs where wolves? I used the term pack behavior, which is very strong in a dog. Choose to ignore, thats your problem. I know I live in harmony with all my dogs because I am ALPHA, and the pecking order is as follows:Me, (all the other human members of the house) Caza (3 year old), Neeko (2 year old), Joe (9 months) and Hondo my little 12 week old puppy. I choose to use pack behavior to my advantage, and if you choose not to, then thats your problem.

[DanL]

When I used the term alpha I suppose I didn't mean what I said. Of course the humans are alphas in our house. When I said Midnite was alpha over Gunnar, the was only meant to say that she was higher in the "pack order" then him, but now that order is changing.

Our parrot is actually the highest in the pack, over everyone but me. :)

[GSDlover_4ever]

When I used the term alpha I suppose I didn't mean what I said. Of course the humans are alphas in our house. When I said Midnite was alpha over Gunnar, the was only meant to say that she was higher in the "pack order" then him, but now that order is changing.

Our parrot is actually the highest in the pack, over everyone but me. :)


exactly!!! I am alpha, but the "alpha" dog is the highest rank CANINE in the household.

[misticaleclipse]

I see, I understand now. I did not realize that the pack order went down through so many dogs. I thought there was the alpha and then all the other dogs. Thank you for explaining everyone!