Cruel Or Not?

[Kathy29]

Yesterday, I was in a local pet store looking for some treats for my dog when I overheard the shop owner talking to a customer. The customer asked him about citronella dog collars to help curb barking problems and I listened in, since I'm having barking problems with my own dog as well. Well, the shop owner went on to say that citronella collars are basically a waste of money and he'd definitely try shock collars before - plus, citronella ones leave behind a residue on the dog's nose.

I couldn't help myself but to jump in after their conversation to say that shock collars are cruel, IMO. The shop owner said they are not "CRUEL," but the dogs get scared because they lose control of their own bodies and they don't like that.

I know there is a lot of controversy on this topic but I'd like to know what you guys think? Personally, I think it's inhumane because if it didn't cause any pain, dogs wouldn't be afraid of the collar. It has to cause a considerable amount of pain for them to get so scared whenever they see the shock collar coming.

Also, do citronella collars work?

Thanks.

[texn]

i feel about the same. there are a hell of a lot better ways to tame and train a dog than shocking it or beating it to a bloody pulp. personally i dont know these better ways, but i'm sure they exist...

[Bailey+Ralph]

IMO it is cruel to use a shock collar!
I have never heard of citronella collars though.

[TAVS]

I wouldnt use a shock collar

[Renee750il]

A shock collar is absolutely the last possible resort for behaviour that threatens a dog's life. And it needs to be used correctly, or it does more harm than good and can be very cruel.

It's always been my understanding that any sort of shock or spray collar typically does more harm than good when it comes to barking.

[Roxy's CD]

I've never heard of citronella collars either.

As for shock collars, I don't really agree with them. Perhaps if there's serious behavioural issues but that's extremely rare. I also hate the way people advertise these methods, especially when they probably don't know much about training themselves. Where I live there are two pet stores, one for the "uppity up" people, it's way more expensive but the people know what their talking about. And than there's the normal one. In the normal one they advise people to get shock collars/prongs/nasty mean looking things etc. and they have no experience what so ever in training. Just because you read the box doesn't make you an expert! :|

[Sweet72947]

I tried a Citronella collar on a dog once for barking. It worked at first but she was a very smart dog and figured out that if she barked enough the collar would eventually run out and it stopped working after that. This dog is now with a rescue group because she became extremely agressive with my dog tried taking my dog's ear off and basically just made my dog miserable. But that's another story. And yeah, I wouldn't use a shock collar. IMO its cruel.

[whatszmatter]

shock collars can be very good tools in the right circumstances for people that know what they're doing. I use one every time we go out to the woods for offleash romper time. I haven't touched a button on it in years but its there. A friend just had his 16 month old black lab killed from chasing a deer across the road and got hit by a semi, guess who won that battle, not the dog. A simple remote collar would have been very humane in that example.

If your dog is so scared from just seeing the collar, again its a case of somebody really screwing up with the tool, not the tool itself. But most people never have a need for one anyway.

On to the smelly ones, and beyond the do I correct or don't i debate, they really have no place. They were developed by people that were too soft hearted and too PC to ever use an e-collar. The theory behind them is against every theory of dog learning and behavior. If you are going to use a correction, it must be immediate, clear and when the appropriate behvior is done, it must be taken away immediatelty.

With citro, the aversive lingers, and the dog is being "corrected" while performing the correct behavior. How is a dog ever to learn anything if the punisher is still applied even after the dog is performing correctly?? The premise behind these citro collars is assinine in every sense.

[whatszmatter]

i feel about the same. there are a hell of a lot better ways to tame and train a dog than shocking it or beating it to a bloody pulp. personally i dont know these better ways, but i'm sure they exist...
My GOD, shock collars are so far away from beating to a bloody pulp, i'm not even sure i know how to respond:confused: Please if people are going to spout such things at least have the knowledge to make such claims.

[gaddylovesdogs]

Unless absolutely necessary, I don't see the point of shocking your dog.

[crazydog]

do they shock the same as one of those shock collars for the invisible fences? because i tried one on as a joke and it actually hurt pretty bad.

[whatszmatter]

I don't like e-fences, but the regular remote collars do NOT have only one level. They have a range and most times the lower settings cannont even be felt by people trying them out. Yes the higher settings can hurt. I've never gone higher than a 2 out of 7 on mine and i feel a slight tickle/tingle/buzz under the probes. My wife, my mom, and brother cannot even feel a #2. Levels 1-4 are all far less than a shock you get from walking across carpet with socks on in the winter and touch your dog.

They don't even feel like that shock its more of a warm tingling than anything. I've had much higher levels put on me for rehabbing muscles than I've ever given a dog.

Can you turn it way up and give some pretty harsh shocks?? Yes but again, if someone choses to abuse the tool, it doesn't make the tool evil, inhumane or tortuous.

[GSDlover_4ever]

If used properly, I dont oppose them.

[BlackPuppy]

I'd rather use a shock collar than the citronella. The citronella doesn't "turn-off". So the poor dog has to smell the lingering scent. I use a high quality bark shock collar on one of my dogs, but only when needed. If I don't she'll bark at the top of her lungs all day when I'm home sick trying to sleep.

[Kathy29]

Oh wow, more people use it than I imagined. Thanks for the input, everyone! I've actually thought about trying one myself to see how much it'll hurt but have never worked up the nerves to do so. Well, coming from someone that is even scared of normal static shocks from carpets and such.. LOL.

[GSDlover_4ever]

Oh wow, more people use it than I imagined. Thanks for the input, everyone! I've actually thought about trying one myself to see how much it'll hurt but have never worked up the nerves to do so. Well, coming from someone that is even scared of normal static shocks from carpets and such.. LOL.


People always say "try it on yourself" but IMO that is an irrelevant way to determine the pain factor. Dogs do not feel the way we feel. It may cause discomfort but you cannot compare your pain to that of a dog or any other animal. All animals react differently to things. Do you think an adult b*tch can pick up a human baby by the neck and not injure it? I think not, the baby would be severly injured if not dead if that happened but if it was a puppy, no damage was done.

[GSDlover_4ever]

Also I do not agree with bark or shock collars when the handler is not present. Too many risks when you are not there. So basically I dont feel its safe to use a bark collar when you are gone at work. Those types of collars should only be used in the presence of an experienced handler or trainer.

[Mordy]

I don't agree with the use of shock collars unless it's used to train dogs to stay away from rattlesnakes and other dangerous critters.

Otherwise they are just crutches for training that can be done just fine without such aversive methods.

[PWCorgi]

I use the citronella collar on my dogs, and it works great! I only use it actively on Mollie, b/c it said not to use until 6 months, and the pups are only 5 months. As soon as I pick it up she stops barking.

There is an on/off switch on mine, so I'll switch it to off and put it on the puppies and they don't bark, lol. They have learned from Mollie that it is not a good thing, and have smelled the spray when it comes off Mollie. When the spray runs out all you have to do (with mine at least) is go to the store and buy a refill canister and spray it into the container. Mine is made by Premier and is a one size fits all.

This (http://www.animalbehaviorsystems.com/category.cfm?Category=10) is the one I have, but I paid $50 for it at the local feed store.

Hope that helps :)

[BostonBanker]

The citronella collar has been a huge help for the border collie at the barn I manage. It hardly matters if it's on or full - if he's wearing the collar, he doesn't bark. Without it, he's an absolute pest.

The citronella smell fades fairly quickly, and I think it's the sound he reacts to as much as anything. This is a dog who can be difficult around certain people, and I think the pain of a shock collar could push him over the edge into aggression. It's just not worth the risk.

[Roxy's CD]

i understand that some dogs bark a lot, but I don't think I would ever want to stop my dogs from barking. They bark if someone's around the house and they scare off ghosts! (lol)

I know sometimes dogs bark too much, but why? It just doesn't make sense to me why a dog would bark for no reason.

[BostonBanker]

Well, the border collie doesn't bark for "no reason". The voices in his head tell him to!

Please note, this is not my dog, and I have no say in how he is managed. He is an older BC who spends a huge portion of the day barking at the wall of the indoor ring. There's nothing behind it. No mice, no nothing. If he were my dog, I would be seeing vets/behaviorists to see about medicating. If dogs can get OCD, this one has it. Controlling the barking means he spends all day outside at the farm, instead of closed up in the house. He does take time out to play fetch, frolick with the other dogs, swim, and doze in the shade, so I think it gives him a much better quality of life.

Again, this isn't my dog. Just trying to point out that some dogs do bark for "no reason".

[Renee750il]

He's not barking for no reason . . . he's barking because he's crazy-bored, poor guy . . .

And dogs can be OCD . . . Just ask any of us who live with Filas :eek: ;)

[MomOf7]

shock collars can be very good tools in the right circumstances for people that know what they're doing.
If your dog is so scared from just seeing the collar, again its a case of somebody really screwing up with the tool, not the tool itself. But most people never have a need for one anyway.


Whats the difference between a pinch or choke chain/slip lead and a shock collar?
Nothing. They are both used for correction with pressure.
If used correctly the collar is a good instrument for correction.
You dont go around with a shock collar burning the crap out of your dog because you are angry. Thats not how it works. You start with the lowest setting. Ask them to perform a command they knew very well. If you get a refusal then you press the button. Dont keep the button pressed just press it like you would a button on your microwave. Just one quick press.
The reaction your looking for is the ears will perk and they will at first look around to see who did that. That is a perfect response. The shock is only to get their attention not to hurt them. If the dog yelps you either pressed the button for too long or have the setting too high.
E-Collars arent for everyone. It is very important in field work as you need to have controll off leash.
Could also be used for people who hike or trail ride with horses.
Its use is multi purpose and should be used by someone knowledgable about its use and how to use it correctly.
I have seen people in dog parks and other places who had them on thier dogs and burnt the crap out of thier dog. I believe this is where the misunderstanding of it lies. It is by no means for that type of use or abuse.

One time if you get a chance use it on your arm. Skin is thicker there as like the dogs skin on their neck. Try the lowest to the highest setting you can stand. You will see how it isnt all that bad if it is used correctly.

Dont knock it till you try it...Kind of like the food your parents used to make you try then you liked.

[LabBreeder]

I know Tira doesn't like shocks. Not because she's ever had a shock collar on, but because she ran into a field that was enclosed with an electric fence meant to keep cows in. She made it through without being touched but on the way out it shocked her once. Since she hadn't come out yet she was scared to try again. We kept calling her and eventually she just hauled @$$ and jumped through (2 more shocks). We couldn't get her out and the owner was just standing there totally unwilling to help her out. He could have shut the power off, but thought she was "learning a lesson about trespassing". That was the first time she'd EVER gone over there and the first time in 8 months that she'd been out of our friends fenced in yard (long story).

The point is this - shocking hurts and I won't use it.

[MomOf7]

I know Tira doesn't like shocks. Not because she's ever had a shock collar on, but because she ran into a field that was enclosed with an electric fence meant to keep cows in. She made it through without being touched but on the way out it shocked her once. Since she hadn't come out yet she was scared to try again. We kept calling her and eventually she just hauled @$$ and jumped through (2 more shocks). We couldn't get her out and the owner was just standing there totally unwilling to help her out. He could have shut the power off, but thought she was "learning a lesson about trespassing". That was the first time she'd EVER gone over there and the first time in 8 months that she'd been out of our friends fenced in yard (long story).

The point is this - shocking hurts and I won't use it.
Your comparing apples to oranges

Thats a fence for cows and horses. The shock on those is 10 times or more stronger than the highest setting on a collar. You cannot compare an electric fence to a shock collar.
Use them or not. Your choice.
But untill you have shocked yourself with one you will never know what it actually feels like and the strenghth of them are. You would be suprised.
The third level is similar to a 9 volt battery on the tongue. Kinda a suprise but it doesnt hurt...just suprises you and definatly gets your attention. The first level you can hardly feel at all.

Like I said if you get a chance to feel the different levels yourself do it.
You might not think so badly of them.

[GSDlover_4ever]

The reaction your looking for is the ears will perk and they will at first look around to see who did that. That is a perfect response. The shock is only to get their attention not to hurt them.

I totally agree.

[dr2little]

What about training? Not a fan of shock or citronella. Never use them, never recommend them. Believe me, barking is one of the most common issues trainers/behaviorists deal with, training is effective and IMO shocking for barking is lazy quick fix that causes more harm than good. To the original poster, I'm in no way saying you're lazy just that you may want to find out why your dog is barking and address it with training rather than a shock collar.

[LabBreeder]

If I don't want to use one on my dog why in the world would I try one on myself? I'm not gonna "test" it out. Like someone else said, it's different for humans vs dogs.

[Kathy29]

To the original poster, I'm in no way saying you're lazy just that you may want to find out why your dog is barking and address it with training rather than a shock collar.

No worries, I never had the intention of using shock collars. I think I said in the original post as well that I personally think it's cruel (I wasn't aware that there were different levels and thought one for all) - just wanted to see how others that have experience with it feels about this product.