Confused about something....

[Sweet72947]

I've been reading a lot of posts on here lately about how you shouldn't correct a dog for growling/warning as that will cause them to forgo the warning and go right for the bite. I am confused about something though. What do you correct to tell a dog agression isn't appropriate? Are you supposed to wait until the dog tries to bite to correct? I don't have a dog with this problem, I am just curious. Thanks in advance to anyone who replies to this thread! :)

[cowgurl6254]

i wish someone would answer your question..i've been wondering the same thing for awhile now. My puppy is growling a lot and I'm not sure what to do to prevent him from being too aggressive. :confused:

[PWCorgi]

First off, I'd like to say that I am in no way a trainer, these are just my observations, which may be wrong.

I think that you are not supposed to correct it, but prevent it from happening by setting boundaries that the dog understands. Making yourself alpha I think is a big part of that, or reinforcing that you are alpha.

[Fran27]

That's a very good question. I think it depends at what they are growling. If they are growling at something other than you, I think it's fine to stop them. If they are growing at you though, it usually makes things worse.

[PWCorgi]

If they are growling at something other than you, I think it's fine to stop them.

For some things yes, such as a squirrel or rabbit. But if it is another dog and they are dog-aggressive it can make it worse also.

[dr2little]

I've been reading a lot of posts on here lately about how you shouldn't correct a dog for growling/warning as that will cause them to forgo the warning and go right for the bite. I am confused about something though. What do you correct to tell a dog agression isn't appropriate? Are you supposed to wait until the dog tries to bite to correct? I don't have a dog with this problem, I am just curious. Thanks in advance to anyone who replies to this thread! :)

If you look at it from the dog's perspective, it may make a bit more sense.:)
A dog growls/warns when something is making him aggitated, uncomfortable, affraid or anxious. Correcting the growl does not address why he growled in the first place, it only tells him that he's not allowed to warn or communicate his discomfort. What often happens is that if he is corrected for trying to communicate his discomfort, he only learns not to warn...what's he left with -often times he's forced to react as the other option has been taken away.
Canines ability to warn prior to attack or reaction will often cause the trigger to retreat and most times that's really all the dog is trying to accomplish.

As far as when to correct, the better question would be - how do I desensitize him to the trigger...or change his thought on what's making him growl.
With respect to a dog growling at a human, usually an adult is the one to correct. When this happens, not only does the dog never really learn to assess leadership from what made him growl (child, stranger) but unless everyone can and does correct in the same way with the same force, the source of the growl usually becomes the recipient of the reaction, however serious.
On the other hand, if the dog is taught leadership based on who controls all of his resources, even a child can be seen as a leader.
Most dogs will only tolerate physical punishment for so long. Physical correction is also a risky business because while the person delivering the correction may be very clear on what is being corrected, the dog often associates the correction with the presence of the trigger. Dog sees child and lunges, dog gets jerked into position, dog sees child as the source of the punishment. With desentisization, dog sees child and recieves rewards prior to lunge (at threshold distance), done often and consistently the dog associates the presence of the child with rewards (BONUS)!
I hope this is a little more clear. I just came home from teaching classes all day and evening so I'm dog tired (pardon the punn) and not exactly on my best game right now. Please ignore the spelling/grammer....too tired to bother proofing..:D

[Zoom]

Great thread, you beat me to it! I've been wondering the same thing.

[Sweet72947]

Thanx dr2little, that makes things clearer. :)

[mydogswork]

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

[Growly~Pants]

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

GREAT POST!!!

[GSDlover_4ever]

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

I totally agree!!! If my dog so much as growled at me he would get a nice correction from me. There is NO WAY I will allow a dog to growl, if you allow that behavior THEN they will move to biting. But once they realize agressive behavior is unacceptable they will stop. I guess us working dog people dont know what were talking about, because were ALWAYS wrong (I see you are new to this forum, and apparently everyone says corrections are a no-no, PUH-LEASE) but we arent dealing with no little fufu dog. How many Sch or police dogs have you guys trained (those opposing corrections)? Just wondering.

[Fran27]

I do not agree at all with those who say we should not correct a dog for growling!! Nip it in the bud!! I don't care what my dog is growling at I will not tolerate it. The only time my dogs are allowed to show aggression is during training when they are responding to an actual threat. Why would anyone want to let their dogs know that acting aggressively for no apparent reason is acceptable because that is what you are doing when you don't correct. I do not agree at all that if you correct that the dog will go stragiht to biting next time. If I had a dog who showed aggression to people for no reason it would be dead anyways. I don't tolerate fear based aggression whatsoever. Dog aggression I will work with though but IMO allwoing a dog to show aggression(growling) by not correcting it you are telling the dog that it is acceptable. My dogs are dominant but not aggressive but **** right they would get a correction if they tried something or even reacted to another dog challenging them. If either one of them growled at me, I am sorry but I would knock their blocks off. I do like a dog with attitude (dominant) but I will in know way allow a dog to be dominant over me.

We'll see if you change your mind when you punish your dog for growling and he bites you. It has happened to my husband. But I guess it will be easier in this case to just put the dog down instead of actually have to WORK on the issue, huh?

[Saje]

Wow, so, really, dogs aren't allowed to communicate with us? I'd much rather my dog growl at me then bite me! Taking away the warning just doesn't seem smart but to each their own I guess.

[GSDlover_4ever]

We'll see if you change your mind when you punish your dog for growling and he bites you. It has happened to my husband. But I guess it will be easier in this case to just put the dog down instead of actually have to WORK on the issue, huh?


Actually pets get put down before working dogs because certain things are not liked by pet owners that can be done to re-essert your leadership. If my dog bit me, I wont say what I would do, but I can almost gurantee he wont do it again.

I guess your husband cannot read body language well. I can always tell if a dog is going to bite whether it growls or not.

[mydogswork]

Let my dog bite me if I correct it. It will get corrected even harder. I am not afraid of being bit and I would NEVER put a dog down for being dominant. I like dominant dogs, just won't allow them to be dominant. I said I have no tolerance for dogs biting out of fear, domiance is a whole different ball game.

[whatszmatter]

Wow, so, really, dogs aren't allowed to communicate with us? I'd much rather my dog growl at me then bite me! Taking away the warning just doesn't seem smart but to each their own I guess.
This is what's wrong with that advice, correcting for aggression, when done correctly is going to extinguish the behvior faster and be much more permanent.

I"m sorry, but most of this, "you'll just take away the warning and such" is either done by people that haven't done it correctly or are pushing a positive only agenda. For every bite you can give me because we've corrected out the "warning" I can give you 10 for people that didn't quite de-sensitize enough and ended up with a bite as well.

growlling in a puppy is one thing and can be handled in a different matter, aggressive responses to children by adult dogs is a whole other scenerio. I"m kind of sick of this pulling out bits and pieces and saying why correcting your dog is so bad, but i'm going to put that hat on for a minute and reverse it.

So by the standards that seem to be acceptable in here, You can't have the dog on a leash because when the lunge at the child it could restrain them, and result in a "pop" on the leash, and that will damage and make your dog afraid of you right? Sounds silly, but that seems to be the attitude sometimes

But for the sake of arguement, you do put a leash and collar on so when the kid walks by the dog lunges it gets a pop when it reaches the end of the leash, but then sits there straining and barking and lunging at the kid, then what?? He's getting nothing but frustrated and now wants to bite that kid even more.. Still no correction?? So by using the logic that seems prevelant here, this dog will learn that kids are a source of frustration and their aggression will only escalate, much like being chained up in the yard. Only you don't want to communicate with your dog, that his aggression is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

you call and call and hold out food, what do you do when the dog is completely locked on something a whole lot more interesting than you?? let them bark themselves or get sick of the aggression?? Just let them keep communicating their displeasure more??

Its fine if you want to go to park and have kids off in the distance and distract your dog with play or whatever and get used to being around different things, but you can't control every situation all the time.

Chances are you're going to come face to face with a situation like a kid running out form behind a car and your dog will react (if you're having these problems in the first place). What are you going to do? Just let the dog react and act aggressively?? Well, guess what, he just won and reinforced in his mind what he already liked to do, act agressively towards children.

There's a time and place for everything, dogs learn from lots of things, some lessons are learned faster better and for longer using something that seems to get nothing but bad press in here. Since dogs learn using positive and negative experiences i'm going to use both when the sitations present themselves. I guess I just don't have a moral conflict in my mind about it.

[dr2little]

I totally agree!!! If my dog so much as growled at me he would get a nice correction from me. There is NO WAY I will allow a dog to growl, if you allow that behavior THEN they will move to biting. But once they realize agressive behavior is unacceptable they will stop. I guess us working dog people dont know what were talking about, because were ALWAYS wrong (I see you are new to this forum, and apparently everyone says corrections are a no-no, PUH-LEASE) but we arent dealing with no little fufu dog. How many Sch or police dogs have you guys trained (those opposing corrections)? Just wondering.

What does your EGO have to do with training a dog?:mad:

You make some pretty broad assumptions for someone who knows nothing about what I do. The dogs I train range from , little fuzzy creatures, your average medium and large breed family dog, problem pitbulls (I'm called when a real issue crops up), feral dogs(you want to talk aggressive and unpredictable) and YES, "working" dogs who were screwed up by people who USE and ABUSE THEM for SPORT?????:confused: . And no, I'm not referring to everyone involved with working dogs.
I DO BITE CASE INVESTIGATION, many resulting from people using the very techniques that you have recommended. Again, the results can be devestating. Have you had to measure puncture wounds on a childs face? Believe me, if you had you would understand why this kind of advise and mentality infuriates me!!!
If you were to do your research, most police dog training organizations have evolved with their training as well. As far as police dogs and Sch...are you a police officer, or a member of a police academy training program? If not, why are you training police dogs? As for Schutzhund training, after seeing your level of canine knowledge, it worries me to think that you are actually involved in this level of training (which I do know all too well).
I'm not sure what experience/education you have but mine is an open book.

AGAIN, for the sake of creating an arguement on this thread, those with no real knowledge would risk influencing the original poster in the wrong direction.:mad: WHY....WHAT DO YOU GAIN, HAVE YOUR SAY SOMEWHERE ELSE...You are of course entiltled to your "opinion"...but why chose this post?? Stick to doing what you do with your own small circle, when it comes to advise about something as serious as this, please take your "input" to another thread.
I will not post again on this thread. My advise to the original question stands as does my offer of help via PM's.
I hope that if you have a beef with what I do or you feel the need to promote your kind of training, you'll RESPECT the needs of the original poster in mind ...and start your own thread.

[dr2little]

This is what's wrong with that advice, correcting for aggression, when done correctly is going to extinguish the behvior faster and be much more permanent.

I"m sorry, but most of this, "you'll just take away the warning and such" is either done by people that haven't done it correctly or are pushing a positive only agenda. For every bite you can give me because we've corrected out the "warning" I can give you 10 for people that didn't quite de-sensitize enough and ended up with a bite as well.

growlling in a puppy is one thing and can be handled in a different matter, aggressive responses to children by adult dogs is a whole other scenerio. I"m kind of sick of this pulling out bits and pieces and saying why correcting your dog is so bad, but i'm going to put that hat on for a minute and reverse it.

So by the standards that seem to be acceptable in here, You can't have the dog on a leash because when the lunge at the child it could restrain them, and result in a "pop" on the leash, and that will damage and make your dog afraid of you right? Sounds silly, but that seems to be the attitude sometimes

But for the sake of arguement, you do put a leash and collar on so when the kid walks by the dog lunges it gets a pop when it reaches the end of the leash, but then sits there straining and barking and lunging at the kid, then what?? He's getting nothing but frustrated and now wants to bite that kid even more.. Still no correction?? So by using the logic that seems prevelant here, this dog will learn that kids are a source of frustration and their aggression will only escalate, much like being chained up in the yard. Only you don't want to communicate with your dog, that his aggression is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

you call and call and hold out food, what do you do when the dog is completely locked on something a whole lot more interesting than you?? let them bark themselves or get sick of the aggression?? Just let them keep communicating their displeasure more??

Its fine if you want to go to park and have kids off in the distance and distract your dog with play or whatever and get used to being around different things, but you can't control every situation all the time.

Chances are you're going to come face to face with a situation like a kid running out form behind a car and your dog will react (if you're having these problems in the first place). What are you going to do? Just let the dog react and act aggressively?? Well, guess what, he just won and reinforced in his mind what he already liked to do, act agressively towards children.

There's a time and place for everything, dogs learn from lots of things, some lessons are learned faster better and for longer using something that seems to get nothing but bad press in here. Since dogs learn using positive and negative experiences i'm going to use both when the sitations present themselves. I guess I just don't have a moral conflict in my mind about it.

I just have to say that to me its less about moral conflict and more about what works long term. Also, your scenerio would never occur in my training session. Where is the threshold? What you describe is someone trying to deal with this problem without a training plan. You are talking about real world void of training. Apples and oranges...if you re-read the posts, you'll see what I mean.

[Fran27]

I agree that it would be great to manage to teach a dog that growling and biting is not acceptable. In practice though, it's another matter. Even if you teach your dog that growling at children is not allowed... It won't change the way he feels about it, and what makes him growl. So then, when he is in the same situation again, he won't growl, but he will show his discomfort by another means - biting.

Not really a good solution if you ask me.

[whatszmatter]

I re-read, and as usualy i'm in the wrong thread, usually meshing other posts together from different days. IN this particular instance, for the growling, no I wouldn't be correting them I would work on what's triggering it and de-sesitizing as well, but if that growling ever changed to aggression, there would be a quick harsh correction.

[GSDlover_4ever]

What does your EGO have to do with training a dog?:mad:

You make some pretty broad assumptions for someone who knows nothing about what I do. The dogs I train range from , little fuzzy creatures, your average medium and large breed family dog, problem pitbulls (I'm called when a real issue crops up), feral dogs(you want to talk aggressive and unpredictable) and YES, "working" dogs who were screwed up by people who USE and ABUSE THEM for SPORT?????:confused: . And no, I'm not referring to everyone involved with working dogs.
I DO BITE CASE INVESTIGATION, many resulting from people using the very techniques that you have recommended. Again, the results can be devestating. Have you had to measure puncture wounds on a childs face? Believe me, if you had you would understand why this kind of advise and mentality infuriates me!!!
If you were to do your research, most police dog training organizations have evolved with their training as well. As far as police dogs and Sch...are you a police officer, or a member of a police academy training program? If not, why are you training police dogs? As for Schutzhund training, after seeing your level of canine knowledge, it worries me to think that you are actually involved in this level of training (which I do know all too well).
I'm not sure what experience/education you have but mine is an open book.

AGAIN, for the sake of creating an arguement on this thread, those with no real knowledge would risk influencing the original poster in the wrong direction.:mad: WHY....WHAT DO YOU GAIN, HAVE YOUR SAY SOMEWHERE ELSE...You are of course entiltled to your "opinion"...but why chose this post?? Stick to doing what you do with your own small circle, when it comes to advise about something as serious as this, please take your "input" to another thread.
I will not post again on this thread. My advise to the original question stands as does my offer of help via PM's.
I hope that if you have a beef with what I do or you feel the need to promote your kind of training, you'll RESPECT the needs of the original poster in mind ...and start your own thread.

Talking about EGO. You have your nerve.

[dr2little]

I re-read, and as usualy i'm in the wrong thread, usually meshing other posts together from different days. IN this particular instance, for the growling, no I wouldn't be correting them I would work on what's triggering it and de-sesitizing as well, but if that growling ever changed to aggression, there would be a quick harsh correction.

I'm in no way suggesting setting the dog up for failure either. I would do whatever it took to protect a child too. I would just make da*n sure that if I knew a potential existed, there would be no grey area as far as risk goes.

[mydogswork]

Hmm, growling at kids? What sort of dogs growl at children in the park that aren't even paying attention to it?? Fear biting nerve bags? Why even bother trying to work with a dog like that? Its going to bite eventually anyways whether you correct the behaviour or not!

[PWCorgi]

I have seen both sides of aggression training, and I will never use correction for aggression again.

Mia was my 4yo St. Bernard/Collie mix. When I got her at 4yo she had dog aggression issues so I worked with my trainer who I have been working with, at the time, for 4 years. Her method was correction for any signs of aggression towards anything. For 2 years I worked with her using corrections and at times it seemed to be working, but it was always one step forward, two steps back. After a while her aggression had escalated to the point that she was now lunging at not just dogs but also people, and even childen. At this point after being blind to the fact that this method was obviously not working I stopped using correction and got in touch with an applied animal behaviorist and traveled 3 hours each way for her to evaluate Mia. And do know what she said? She said that Mia was so bad and damaged from what I thought was helping her that the most humane thing to do would be to put her to sleep. And do you know where she ended up? At the vet's office with a needle in her leg. I will never forgive myself for what I did to my dog, and never again will I use correction for aggression.

On the other hand my girl that I have now has recently started to show aggression towards other dogs. This time the first thing I did was to ask dr2little for help. And after working with her for not even a week, I am seeing awesome results from my girl, without the use of correction!

I've seen more progress while working with dr2little using desensitization for less than a week then I did using correction for 2 years!

And yes, I know that human agression is different than dog agression, but I will still never use correction for aggression of any type again.

[whatszmatter]

now if you would have told me that you saved the other "damaged" dog by not using corrections, I would have been impressed. Other than that, you said you used correction for 2 years, I can say with a great degree of certainty that it wasn't administred timely correctly and obviously not effectively. That or your dog had so many ghosts in its head, being PTS was its only option no matter what methods you tried. So in your mind that makes correction "bad"

How about this, here's a story of the lady in the park with her 14 month old rott mix, terribly agressive towards anything that walked by, sitting with a bag chopped hot dogs and a clicker. Clicking away waiting for her dog to look her way to give the hot dog to. Guess who's dog tore the shorts off an 8 year old while she fumbled with a clicker bag and leash??

Just because someone is using something incorrectly and you don't get good results doesn't mean its wrong every time. and why does training have to be all one thing and not another??

[mydogswork]

now if you would have told me that you saved the other "damaged" dog by not using corrections, I would have been impressed. Other than that, you said you used correction for 2 years, I can say with a great degree of certainty that it wasn't administred timely correctly and obviously not effectively. That or your dog had so many ghosts in its head, being PTS was its only option no matter what methods you tried. So in your mind that makes correction "bad"

How about this, here's a story of the lady in the park with her 14 month old rott mix, terribly agressive towards anything that walked by, sitting with a bag chopped hot dogs and a clicker. Clicking away waiting for her dog to look her way to give the hot dog to. Guess who's dog tore the shorts off an 8 year old while she fumbled with a clicker bag and leash??

Just because someone is using something incorrectly and you don't get good results doesn't mean its wrong every time. and why does training have to be all one thing and not another??


I was thinking the same thing. The corrections were probably done incorrectly . I am all for postive reinforcement in my training. I use food reward to TEACH everything. I use a toy as a reward also. But when the time comes that my dog is delibeartely giving me the finger they get corrected. They do what I want they get rewarded. It's all about balance.

[tessa_s212]

To the OP-

dr2little has given you some GREAT advice and a wonderful explanation. Please do not ignore her informative post because of those individuals trying to start a fight on here. :)

[GSDlover_4ever]

I was thinking the same thing. The corrections were probably done incorrectly . I am all for postive reinforcement in my training. I use food reward to TEACH everything. I use a toy as a reward also. But when the time comes that my dog is delibeartely giving me the finger they get corrected. They do what I want they get rewarded. It's all about balance.


I agree. TEACHING a dog is done through motivation but once my dog knows a command 100% and CHOOSES not to do it then he gets corrected. I want a soldier, not one who has to wait to have some sort of motivation handy. A soldier doesnt have to like the general at all times but they DO respect them and do what is asked of them. And dont start the "working as a team crap again". There is always a leader and thats me. And the corrections do not mess up our relationship, I'm the one who puts there d*mn food down. My dogs RESPECT me, and that is what i want. Yeah, they might not like me, but they get over it. I have had all "hard" dogs who could care less. Now, if I had a softer dog who could not handle it then I would change my approach but as of now, my dogs get corrected and move on.

[casablanca1]

Just because someone is using something incorrectly and you don't get good results doesn't mean its wrong every time. and why does training have to be all one thing and not another??

Good lord, someone finally said something sensible.

[DanL]

I think both sides of the debate have made great points, and this has been a very informative thread.

The part that concerns me is the unexpected situations. You CANNOT predict when some object- child, animal, person on a bike, etc- is going to pop up out of nowhere and cause your dog to react. So to say something like "my dog would never be in that situation" must mean that your dog never goes anywhere with you until you have acclimated it to every potential pop up situation that can happen? I understand the desensitizing idea but you can't do that for 100% of the time. So what is your choice if your dog lunges at an unexpected object that comes into his space. You have to correct immediately or possibly have an even worse situation on your hands.

I guess I'm fortunate that my GSD has never growled at me. No, thats a lie- he did growl at me when he was younger when we started feeding him a raw food diet. The value of what he was eating was so high that he felt a stronger need to guard it. I broke that in a couple weeks by giving him the "leave it" and "come" command while he was eating- not by going over and taking his food from him. Making him leave it and come to me showed him that I controlled his resources, and he hasn't growled at me in months. He's NEVER growled at me for any other reason, nor has he growled at any family member or guest in our home. If he growls or barks at a stranger walking by, I let him do it for a few seconds, because that is why we have him. He's not allowed to bark uncontrollably for minutes at a time though- a couple barks to let them know he's there, and if he presses the issue then he's put in a down and distracted from the source.

[SummerRiot]

Alrighty..

I have personally dealt with this and am now on the finishing touches of this!! I'm speaking from experience! lol

Riot, my 11month old Belgian Tervuren went through a "fear/aggresion" stage that was the most frustrating thing I've ever experienced with a dog. lol

He had been in conformation classes ever since he had gotten his 3 rd shot as a puppy, right up until about a month ago. So.. he had no reason to fear people touching him. Hes never been hit, EVER in his whole life. Hes never been "talked down to/yelled at" so He would have absolutely no reason to be like this. BUT All Belgians go through this stage when they are puppies.

When he was around 6 months old he started to growl at strange people that wanted to touch him. I tried correcting it but saying "no", or taking his face and looking him in the eye and saying "No" or "off".. none of this worked. He escalated into nipping at people as well as the growling.
When he was younger, my dad was trying to see his teeth, he started to growl, my dad raised his voice.. so did Riot.. lol I told my dad to speak gently to him and Riot shut up right there and wagged his tail and allowed him to see his teeth.

SOO.. with months of conditioning training Riot now allows starngers to pet him, he now plays with kids(who he hated before) one on one(still working on groups). He can now allow strangers to look at his teeth for conformation.

What we did was the positive reward system. Everytime he was a good boy, I'd give the stranger a treat and THEY would treat him.. not me - he only got praise from me, which he loved anyways lol
This showed him that IF he was a good boy, he would get something yummy.

Now, I've never seen him growl at any other dog (unless provoked by a rude dog etc), I've never seen him growl at another animal - he loves all Gods creatures lmao!!
He only growls now when something is "wrong" in his eyes.. like he hears someone at the door and we dont know them.. he senses it from us.

he scared the crap out of the pizza delivery guy the other day.. We had him by the collar and something about the pizza guy was "off" to him and he stood in the dark door way with a low grumble. He didn't want him touching "grandma". So, we gave the pizza guy a treat to give him, told him not to look in his eyes and not to crouch over him, by the end Riot was wagging his tail.

[Roxy's CD]

GSD I don't think respect has anything to do with the issue, unless their growling at the owner, if their growling at people it's usually another issue (Although I will say sometimes, if there's no respect for the owner the dog feels that they can do whatever they please)

In MY personal experience with a dog that used to be EXTREMELY aggressive corrections was NOT the way to go. The first problem was I wasn't *always* being dominant therefore she did not respect me. She would growl at me, and I would correct it, usually verbally once in a awhile phsyically (a very dominant body language..) She never nipped me, but corrections DID NOTHING! If anything her "attitude" got much worse. (BTW, limiting her furniture privleges has made the world of change)

With strangers she used to be outwardly aggressive. Lunging at people walking by, growling/barking/snarling at anyone that spoke to me, just the epitomy of a violent/aggressive animal. So she went to school and had private, behvioural lessons. What did my trainer teach me? Do not CORRECT physically, why? It makes the situation worse, because as someone mentioned: A stranger comes around. They bark, you tug. Dog's thoughts: Everytime a stranger comes around my neck hurts! Wow, I hate strangers.

What I did instead, was the "watch me" exercise as well as building her confidence. Firmly telling the animal "NO Roxy! Your fine, Nevermind, let's go" Is a great way to show them, that there is no threat so let's get on with our walk.

Now instead of lunging at people she ignores them. If I stop to talk to someone she sits at my side. She still does not allow strangers to touch her and honestly really doesn't like being spoken to either, "AW Roxy! Your so cute!" (I know it's weird but whatever). Regardless, many dogs just prefer their own pack members. As long as she isn't outwardly aggressive to strangers I'm fine with that. I actually like the fact that she doesn't like strangers touching her and I'm very responsible about. (I tell people that she is NOT friendly and doesn't like being touched, It's true)

Roxy will growl and snarl as well as get up and move away from them to let people know that she does not want to be touched. Has she ever tried to nip anyone? Nope, usually the site of their teeth tell people, leave me alone, and they do. I truly believe that if I had corrected her growling, as opposed to just accepting the fact that she doesn't like strange people touching her, she would have been put down by now. I am very responsible while walking in her public. Rarely do people approach us anyways, she's not the "interested looking" type!

Corrections is only acceptable if your sure the animal knows what it's doing is wrong. Ex) You go to take away their bone and they snarl. (Assuming you've done this to them many times to ensure they don't growl). In this situation the dog knows what it's doing is wrong, therefore a correction is needed. If the animal doesn't know what it's doing wrong and there's no logical or reasonable explanation for growling than that's somethiing you as an owner have to figure out.

[Doberluv]

Boy, I don't get why some of you "experienced" people have dogs who growl at you in the first place. Something is wrong with the relationship....seems to me.

OP....Dr. 2Little gave you great advice. Develop a trusting and a mutually respecting relationship, not a dictatorship and teach your dog through reinforcement that you provide resources he needs and wants, that he earns them and that you are a benevolent, calm, unemotional teacher/ leader.

[Roxy's CD]

Doberluv I didn't say I was "experienced in training dogs", I was referring to my own experience with my aggressive animal.

And yes, the problem was I was allowing her to be dominant in some ways and confusing her.(allowing her to have her own "spot" on the couch) I've taken the advice of my trainer and people on chaz and fixed the problem. It took some admitting on my own behalf but I did.

BTW your post seemed a bit harsh. Maybe I'm just taking it sarcastically and that's not how it was meant to be.... whatever.

[Renee750il]

Roxy, I don't think Doberluv was necessarily referring to you :)

So many of these [sic] training methods that involve domination and corrections are part of the many reasons why I will never allow one of my Filas to fall into the hands of any sort of law enforcement training. For one thing, you try that with one of these dogs and sooner or later you're either going to end up with a dog that utterly refuses to acknowledge your existence when it realizes that it is your intellectual superior, is horribly confused and can't do anything for fear of displeasing you, or helps themselves to your intestines. Or perhaps two out of the three choices . . .

I'm constantly amazed at how little value is placed on being able to actually communicate with our dogs. It's really not all that difficult - it just takes a willingness to get down off of the humanoid pedestal and have a look at things from a different viewpoint. They work so diligently to try to understand what WE want, even when what we ask can't possibly make any sense at all from a dog's view of the world . . .

[DanL]

BTW your post seemed a bit harsh. Maybe I'm just taking it sarcastically and that's not how it was meant to be.... whatever.

Seemed a little harsh to me too. Usually sarcasm is followed with a :) or something so I didn't take it as a joke either. It must be nice to know everything and be able to look down your nose at the prong using barbarian commoners. :) Notice the smiley, indicating that I'm being sarcastic.

[Roxy's CD]

Renee I agree. Although I think it's a mix of two things: one being communication on our level. We interact with our dogs mostly in "human terms". Ex) Their doggy beds, wanting them to heel on leash, being on furniture couches/beds etc. These are things that a dog wouldn't do in the wild. Now stick with me.lol. The second thing, is as you said trying to understand their behaviour, the part of them that is still in the wild. Ex) pack leaders, dog greetings, dog to dog interaction etc.

My problem was I thought Roxy would understand that her spot on the couch was hers because I loved her and wanted her to be comfortable and close to me. But of course, this behaviour is attributed to the "wild side" (lol) of her, as a dog in the wild, only the alpha has "spots" that are in a place that is highly desirable. lol

I think it's our job to decipher which part of their behaviours are from the wild and which ones are just from hanging around us soo much.. :D

[Renee750il]

Add into that, Roxy, that every single dog is a different character! So that adds another level of communication into the relationship . . . The things that work with Shiva don't necessarily work at all with Kharma (actually, the only thing they have in common is they listen, it's just the terms I use with them are very different - I think Bimmer just reads my mind, lol) :eek: But at least it's easier than dealing with other humans most of the time :D

[GSDlover_4ever]

Seemed a little harsh to me too. Usually sarcasm is followed with a :) or something so I didn't take it as a joke either. It must be nice to know everything and be able to look down your nose at the prong using barbarian commoners. :) Notice the smiley, indicating that I'm being sarcastic.

It seemed rude to me. IF my dog growled at me. IF being the key word.

SummerRiot- I understand what you are saying but I dont want my dog to think IF I'm good I MIGHT get a treat. I want my dog to realize that if he shows agressive behavior he will have to suffer the consequence. A dog, IMO would try to avoid a correction then HOPING that he might get a treat.

You can only manipulate the environment so much and there is a possibility that the trigger might show up again, and I am not willing to take that risk. I think its cruel to let a dog display agressive behavior and have them bite someone and have to be put down.

[tessa_s212]

I think its cruel to let a dog display agressive behavior and have them bite someone and have to be put down.

But, fact is, if you can and do hear that warning growl, you can get your dog out of the situation. But, if the dog had been corrected for growling, and instead just bit out of no where, you could not get your dog out of the situation in time because your dog would already be attacked the trigger.

[opokki]

Whether you "correct" a dog or not for growling, there is an underlying issue that needs to be delt with, which lead to the growl in the first place. Corrections might supress the behavior but they will do nothing for the cause. If a dog is growling at the owner, there is a relationship problem that will take much more than corrections to mend. If a dog is growling at children because he is afraid of them, corrections may stop him from growling at them but will do nothing to make him feel more comfortable around children.

[GSDlover_4ever]

But, fact is, if you can and do hear that warning growl, you can get your dog out of the situation. But, if the dog had been corrected for growling, and instead just bit out of no where, you could not get your dog out of the situation in time because your dog would already be attacked the trigger.


Hmm... I guess I pay attention enough to my dogs to know when they are uncomfortable but I EXPECT them to ignore outside distractions. My dog's world is me and thats it. The only reason he should react is if there is a threat. Other than than my dog;s focus is on me, and me only. I am speaking in terms of IF.

[opokki]

The only reason he should react is if there is a threat.

Would this include threats from his perspective or only yours?

[GSDlover_4ever]

Would this include threats from his perspective or only yours?

Am I sensing sarcasm. Well, if you really want to know and arent trying to be a smartass from both. Dogs have intuition and if he senses a REAL threat then it is expected of him to react. Now, if I was in danger I would command him to react if he didnt already do so. Now, I am not saying that my dogs lunge at every person who comes near me. But they do step in front of me when someone comes rushing up to me, but as long as I dont react and I dont tense up then they relax, or I tell them its ok. A threat means someone that can harm us, not something as simple as a kid pulling on his ear.

[IliamnasQuest]

Interesting thread.

I've already addressed much of this in the previous thread.

What amazes me is how people will fight ferociously for their right to put a prong collar on the dog and yank it around when they *assume* the dog is acting from pure aggression or deliberately "flipping the bird" to them. I guess there are those who prefer to train with pain.

I've been on both sides. I started out "a la Koehler" and it was very harsh at times. I've SEEN the results, and I've seen the results from a primarily positive training method. Those of you who really feel the need to use harsh physical corrections in order to fix the problems (that maybe you created) are really missing out on something wonderful.

As it's been explained, to those who chose to listen .. using a correction does not change the underlying reason for the behavior. It may very well change the behavior AT THE TIME, but it doesn't fix anything. Physical corrections are based on the concept that they are uncomfortable enough to make the dog fear having it happen again. So you are forcing the dog to associate pain/fear with the object that they were focused on at the time of the correction. You may not want to believe this, but it's the way it is.

I am not against corrections as a whole and there ARE times when I feel it's okay for a dog to know there's a consequence to a behavior. But if a dog is growling, especially at people, you better get your butt off the couch and your hands off the prong collar and learn how to change the ROOT of the behavior. All your yanking and pronging and pain-related corrections don't fix the problem. Yep, you may luck out and your dog may never do it again. But there are those that will run into a huge problem later on because they thought yanking their dog around on a prong collar was sufficient to take away ALL the reasons the dog had for growling. People who assume that are being very naive about dog behavior.

I also find it interesting that a couple of you seem to assume that anyone who understands the concepts of dog behavior and are promoting the use of desensitization must not have "working dogs". I have German shepherds and chow chows, both breeds which require a pretty strong leadership. One of my shepherds is fully German/Belgian lines with a grandfather that was a SchIII 15 times. My chows are working dogs with certifications in herding and titles in agility and obedience (one chow worked clear through utility). I've worked with hundreds of large dogs - including wolf hybrids and once a full blooded wolf. And the full blooded wolf had all sorts of problems because the misguided owner had this idea that you punish every time there's a growl or an indication of "aggression". It took awhile, using positive methods, but we were finally able to turn things around to a certain extent. All the punishments in the world wouldn't have worked, but rewarding for the right behaviors sure did.

I have a lot of experience as well as having studied extensively. I have nearly 30 performence titles on my dogs so far. I don't know it all, but I know enough to understand that there is way more to fixing aggression than corrections. Generally people who come to me have tried corrections and it's failed or made things worse. And it's not that they were necessarily doing them "wrong" - it's that the corrections were not addressing the true problem.

There are some dogs that a correction will stop, and generally it's because they were either not really serious about the growl or they have pretty soft temperaments overall. But as I said on the other thread - telling someone in an online forum to use a prong collar and corrective methods is HUGELY irresponsible on the part of the person suggesting the method. You can't know what's truly going on, or why the dog reacted the way he did. To tell someone to use a correction is taking a big risk, and I think that those saying "use a prong collar and yank" just don't have the proper knowledge to be giving advice at all. When a dog is growling (especially at a child) then a person really does need to get someone knowledgeable out to assess the situation and figure out what needs to be done. The last thing you want is to have that dog now associate a painful correction with the child and possibly build more resentment because of it.

Erring on the side of caution is always a more intelligent response.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[GSDlover_4ever]

Lets get one thing straight. I CHOOSE to use a prong as a useful training aid. And if my dog CHOOSES not to listen to me, then I correct. As I said before I am not my dogs partner, I am the General hes the soldier, and once they realized that and the pack rank fell into play life went smoothly

Melanie, I am genuinly curious as to whether or not you do Schutzhund and sports of that nature. When I say working dogs I mean HARD dogs. If one of you guys want to take my dominant, challenging, confident 3 year old GSD home, please let me know. See if you can handle him for a week with "treats and praise" only and see how he walks over you. He'll treat you like a dog, trust me.

[dr2little]

Lets get one thing straight. I CHOOSE to use a prong as a useful training aid. And if my dog CHOOSES not to listen to me, then I correct. As I said before I am not my dogs partner, I am the General hes the soldier, and once they realized that and the pack rank fell into play life went smoothly

Melanie, I am genuinly curious as to whether or not you do Schutzhund and sports of that nature. When I say working dogs I mean HARD dogs. If one of you guys want to take my dominant, challenging, confident 3 year old GSD home, please let me know. See if you can handle him for a week with "treats and praise" only and see how he walks over you. He'll treat you like a dog, trust me.

You keep questioning everyone's cred.s/experience, yet you don't provide anything but a total lack of understanding of Canine Behavior at even the very basic level. I think that Melanie not only stated clearly her level of experience but provides proof of that with each insightful, educated and experienced post.

As for your "relationship" with your dog, all I can say is...poor dog:(

[GSDlover_4ever]

You keep questioning everyone's cred.s/experience, yet you don't provide anything but a total lack of understanding of Canine Behavior at even the very basic level. I think that Melanie not only stated clearly her level of experience but provides proof of that with each insightful, educated and experienced post.


How am I questioning anyones credetials. Since when am I not allowed to have an opinion. Oh wait YOU dont agree with it, so its wrong. Ah, got it.

I am not asking for credetials, and i could care less really. You provided them on your own terms. *cough* ego *cough*.

[GSDlover_4ever]

As for your "relationship" with your dog, all I can say is...poor dog:(

Buh-huh, :rolleyes: .

[opokki]

No, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I'm only trying to make a point and remain neutral.

What a dog considers threatening and what we consider threatening might be completely different things. I think that expecting a dog to react only when WE see a situation as threatening is expecting a bit too much. We can't make our dogs feel less threatened by just correcting them. We can make them feel less threatened by remaining neutral and addressing the cause.

And I'm not even arguing the use of corrections...just to be clear.

I agree that our response has an affect on the way our dog reacts. I think its wonderful that some can read their dogs body language so well that they can prevent a growl from happening in the first place by removing the dog from the uncomfortable situation. Thats the way it should be. We certainly don't need our dogs rehursing undesireable behaviors. When we understand what made the dog uncomfortable we can then deal with the cause. If a dog is reacting, he is probably uncertain about our control over the situation...a lack of trust, a relationship problem. Corrections alone will not solve this.

[GSDlover_4ever]

No, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I'm only trying to make a point and remain neutral.

What a dog considers threatening and what we consider threatening might be completely different things. I think that expecting a dog to react only when WE see a situation as threatening is expecting a bit too much. We can't make our dogs feel less threatened by just correcting them. We can make them feel less threatened by remaining neutral and addressing the cause.

And I'm not even arguing the use of corrections...just to be clear.

I agree that our response has an affect on the way our dog reacts. I think its wonderful that some can read their dogs body language so well that they can prevent a growl from happening in the first place by removing the dog from the uncomfortable situation. Thats the way it should be. We certainly don't need our dogs rehursing undesireable behaviors. When we understand what made the dog uncomfortable we can then deal with the cause. If a dog is reacting, he is probably uncertain about our control over the situation...a lack of trust, a relationship problem. Corrections alone will not solve this.

IMO a dog that growls and shpws agressive behavior should NOT be able to roam out in the public because they have already shown their agressive side, and people are... well you might as well say allow it so the dog feels it can growl whenever it wants.

My 3 year old GSD, doesnt like poeple, just his personality. It is my duty as a dog owner to keep him AWAY from people to whom he can injure. Yes, he will warn someone all day but enough is enough and he will snap. I tried fixing his issue with people touching him (hes fine until someone touches him, ignores you otherwise) but I accepted and respect the fact that he is not a touchy feely dog and I decided not to subject him to that. We go out, but I make sure kids wont be there and am always watching for people who might pet him, but on the average he doesnt go out with me. When it comes to uncomfort I try to comfort my dog, but I am speaking in terms of pocession. Being pocessive is NOT acceptable but I RESPECT a dogs feeling towards an issue and work on it, but I do not push the issue. And I have acceptted the fact that my dog is what he is, and I cannot change his personality. yes if I worked on it longer I could probably fix it but what the point. He doesnt need to go shopping with me and no one needs to pet him. He is a working dog and thats all he wants to do, WORK. He could care less about galevanting with me out in the stores. He is who he is.

[DanL]

As for your "relationship" with your dog, all I can say is...poor dog:(

doc, this is the kind of elitist comment that makes people antagonistic towards you. There is no need for this type of remark- you have no clue about what kind of relationship anyone here has with their pet. You also have to consider that some people have different views on exactly what that relationship should be. Someone dealing with a hard personalitied true working dog such as a police K9 or military dog on a 24x7 basis is going to have different thoughts than someone who has a labradoodle and does intermittant behavioral work with problem pit bulls. I'm not saying that either situation is better qualified than the other because they are so different, and I'm not discounting your credentials, but when you make a snobby comment like that one, it can turn people off who might have been willing to listen to your ideas.

[opokki]

Nothing to argue here, I agree under these circumstances. The dog displayed behavior, you attempted to work on the cause but were unsucessful and therefore you avoid bringing the dog into these situations.

IMO a dog that growls and shpws agressive behavior should NOT be able to roam out in the public because they have already shown their agressive side, and people are... well you might as well say allow it so the dog feels it can growl whenever it wants.

My 3 year old GSD, doesnt like poeple, just his personality. It is my duty as a dog owner to keep him AWAY from people to whom he can injure. Yes, he will warn someone all day but enough is enough and he will snap. I tried fixing his issue with people touching him (hes fine until someone touches him, ignores you otherwise) but I accepted and respect the fact that he is not a touchy feely dog and I decided not to subject him to that. We go out, but I make sure kids wont be there and am always watching for people who might pet him, but on the average he doesnt go out with me. When it comes to uncomfort I try to comfort my dog, but I am speaking in terms of pocession. Being pocessive is NOT acceptable but I RESPECT a dogs feeling towards an issue and work on it, but I do not push the issue. And I have acceptted the fact that my dog is what he is, and I cannot change his personality. yes if I worked on it longer I could probably fix it but what the point. He doesnt need to go shopping with me and no one needs to pet him. He is a working dog and thats all he wants to do, WORK. He could care less about galevanting with me out in the stores. He is who he is.

[IliamnasQuest]

Melanie, I am genuinly curious as to whether or not you do Schutzhund and sports of that nature. When I say working dogs I mean HARD dogs. If one of you guys want to take my dominant, challenging, confident 3 year old GSD home, please let me know. See if you can handle him for a week with "treats and praise" only and see how he walks over you. He'll treat you like a dog, trust me.

I have done some schutzhund in the past, but not presently as there are no training opportunities in my area. I understand completely what you mean by a hard dog - I have been in shepherds for some 17 years now. I prefer a dog with a lot of drive and a lot of intensity. These dogs can excel in other sports besides schutzhund, you know.

My older shepherd tested out well on bitework and in fact I was admonished by a schutzhund judge because I had her spayed and he felt she would have contributed nicely with her offspring (based on her drive and attitude in schutzhund). She was trained in a very motivational method, in obedience, for two years before tested on bitework and they *assumed* that since I'd obedience trained her that she would not react. They were quite wrong and quite impressed.

Just because a dog is "hard" and has a lot of drive does NOT mean that motivational methods don't work. In fact, they work especially well on dogs like that! Make them think that what you want is what THEY want and you have a dog with the drive to work with you and not against you. I provide a very strong leadership for my dogs. I live with five bitches loose in the house together. Other than one of my chows, these are all dominant animals who would love to rule the roost, but I AM the alpha bitch of the group. The difference between someone like me and someone like, perhaps, you .. *L* .. is that I don't find the need to use much in the way of harsh corrections because I've established a good leadership in a firm and fair way. Pain just isn't really needed IF you know what you're doing. You have this misconception that we just wave a treat and expect the dog to respond. What you're not understanding is that those of us who know what we're doing are very good at setting the right boundaries and being consistent in our rewards and our removal of rewards. Dogs aren't stupid - they quickly learn how to earn what they want and then they continue to work for it. Since they're not forced, they are more eager instead of less eager to do what we want. Leadership is the key, but leadership involves being calm and fair and doesn't mean that we have to prove that we have more "muscle". Training in this way is based on solid scientific/behavioral facts and it isn't just cookie-training.

My dogs understand "NO" and they understand that if I grab a cheek and look at them, that they've really crossed the line. But I can take all five dogs outside on leash and not put a prong collar on a single one. I've used prong collars and I understand how they work. On rare occasion there may even be a dog that a prong collar might be a good tool to use on. But people are so quick to correct and I've found over the years that it's generally a HUMAN problem, not a dog problem.

A dog that is properly socialized, with a strong but fair and consistent leadership from the humans, rarely has a need to act fearful or aggressive. If someone is having a problem with a growling dog then something has most likely not been handled correctly along the way. Believe me, I see a lot of this in German shepherds. But the fact that someone has not been handled correctly is the HUMAN's fault, not the dog - so why is the method of choice to fix that problem a harsh correction from the human? It's much better to find out WHY and work to show the dog that the growling is not necessary.

And online it's completely wrong to tell someone to use a correction when you can NOT know the full story of what's going on. When this dog turns the aggression up, or later breaks out into uncontrolled reactions, you're not going to be around to pick up the pieces. It's wrong, it's absolutely WRONG and I really hate seeing people "advise" others to use a correction when what they SHOULD be saying is "get help from someone qualified to understand dog behavior".

A very quick way to prove to me that you don't have the experience or knowledge to truly understand dog behavior is to immediately give advice to someone on how to use a prong collar to stop an aggression problem.

Oh - and I have no doubt I could work with your shepherd and he would learn to love to work with me. I would provide a proper leadership and give him solid reasons to work .. and I could do it without the use of a prong collar. Of course, I know this is empty boasting because it's not going to happen .. but I've worked with animals that I am sure were much harder than your shepherd. And in all honesty, German shepherds overall are NOT a hard breed to work with - not by comparison to many others. This includes German line working dogs with high drive (the ones I LOVE).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Doberluv]

Whether you "correct" a dog or not for growling, there is an underlying issue that needs to be delt with, which lead to the growl in the first place. Corrections might supress the behavior but they will do nothing for the cause. If a dog is growling at the owner, there is a relationship problem that will take much more than corrections to mend. If a dog is growling at children because he is afraid of them, corrections may stop him from growling at them but will do nothing to make him feel more comfortable around children.

Exactly. And in addition, when you correct a behavior, there can be other behaviors happening at the same time so the dog can shut down....in general lots of behavior. The dog doesn't always know which behavior you're targeting. So...you get a toned down, shut down version of a dog, who in general ceases to behave at all. Such a shame when you can teach the dog using scientific learning methods.

[Doberluv]

I understand completely what you mean by a hard dog - I have been in shepherds for some 17 years now.

Me too Melanie....Shepherds and now a Doberboy. Motivation and reward is especially efficient with "hard" dogs. You can't set yourself up for a power struggle. It's ridiculous.

[whatszmatter]

There are some dogs that a correction will stop, and generally it's because they were either not really serious about the growl or they have pretty soft temperaments overall. But as I said on the other thread - telling someone in an online forum to use a prong collar and corrective methods is HUGELY irresponsible on the part of the person suggesting the method. You can't know what's truly going on, or why the dog reacted the way he did. To tell someone to use a correction is taking a big risk, and I think that those saying "use a prong collar and yank" just don't have the proper knowledge to be giving advice at all. When a dog is growling (especially at a child) then a person really does need to get someone knowledgeable out to assess the situation and figure out what needs to be done. The last thing you want is to have that dog now associate a painful correction with the child and possibly build more resentment because of it.

Erring on the side of caution is always a more intelligent response.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Don't you think its equally irresponsible to tell people that corrections are never the answer to tell people to run from anyone that uses a collar and leash and might correct your dog. Don't you think its unfair and irresponsible to make an assumption over the internet about a trainer and tell people what to do with their problem dogs?? Not you in particular melanie, but there are enough others on here doing just that. Then they justify it with "scientific methods" well they've closed their mind to 50% of dog training because they will not acknowledge the other 50%. There are times when a correction is necessary, need me to post more "scientific" literature, i've told you where to go and find it, and obviously you haven't taken the time or just don't want to.

In this particular problem for growling I wouldn't correct anything, for more aggressive responses especially towards children, i would in a heart beat. Since everyone has a positive only success story, i train almost exclusively motivational. I work my personal dog everyday sometimes on multiple disciplines. She won't see anything other than voice corrections for weeks. She used to have terrible dog agression issues. I desensitized from a distance, and she could tolerate a pretty close dog, but there was about a 3 foot perimeter and if she got inside of it, her focus would immediatly go to the dog and it was on.

I finally got sick of it, and she got blasted with prong collar. You wanna know how she reacts to dogs now?? She's not avoiding, she did for probably 3-4 days after that correction, i didn't expect anything different. If she happens to look funny at a dog, i just say her name and she immediately is at my side. It took ONE freaking correction.

My relationship with my dog did not suffer, she still has a wagging tail and plenty of energy. The only time she lowers her head to come to me is when I make little girly kissy noises and am acting like a total fool. She can run with other dogs and play if I even start to notice anything starting I only have to say her name and she instantly snaps out of it.

ONE correction. Don't sit on the other side of that computer screen and type out phrases like scientific (when you fail to recognize half the research out there), synergystic relationship (i correct my dog when needed and people comment on our relationship everywhere we go), true understanding, "poor dog" when referring to one's relationship with their dog. Please you've never met the person or their dog.

And since we're on the topic of working dogs, don't mistake drive for hardness. They aren't the same thing. many dogs with tons of drive aren't very hard at all.

[whatszmatter]

Exactly. And in addition, when you correct a behavior, there can be other behaviors happening at the same time so the dog can shut down....in general lots of behavior. The dog doesn't always know which behavior you're targeting. So...you get a toned down, shut down version of a dog, who in general ceases to behave at all. Such a shame when you can teach the dog using scientific learning methods.
and when you reward, there can be other behaviors happening at the same time so the dog can get confused.... in general in lots of behaviors. The dog doesn't know which behavior you're targeting. So you get a yappy, snapping, jumping all over with all sorts of displacement behaviors dog that you can't get to behave. Such a shame when you can train a dog using scientific methods.


You see it works both ways, Dog training is all timing, timing timing, consistency consitency consistency. The rest is mostly a moral dilemma in our minds.

[GSDlover_4ever]

Bitework, tracking obedience are all done through drive exercises. My dogs dont get corrected for obedience routines when in drive because their is no need for it. I can walk through a carnival with my dog and as long as he is focused and in drive then he will ALWAYS stay by my side.

But if I tell him to sit and he does not do it because I dont have motivation or he isnt in drive then he gets corrected. My mentality is that if a dog can do something for motivation, it knows that command. And if he can do it for a treat then he can do it for me, and if he decides not to he gets corrected.

Melanie, I would give you 15 minutes with my dog and you would run out screaming, pulling your hair out, lol. Motivation is a BIG part of my training but there is a time where I will not have a toy or a treat but I still expect him to listen to me.

[IliamnasQuest]

whatszmatter -

As you can tell by my posts (I hope, because I've said it straight out many times) I am not against corrections altogether. But you can do much more damage and create a much more dangerous situation with a wrongly placed correction than you can with a program of reinforcing behaviors you like. THIS is why it's irresponsible to recommend corrections in a situation online where you have a limited amount of information about the dog, the situation AND the ability of the handler. To put someone at risk just because YOU had one time when you used a correction and it worked just makes no sense to me.

Yes, there are some dogs who benefit from a properly timed correction. But there are many who not only don't benefit, they become more dangerous. Who are we to say, online and miles away from the dog and the person, that a correction would work??? To me that's completely ludicrous and completely 100% irresponsible.

Recommending that a person take a good look at their management of the dog, the leadership that they may or may not be offering, the reactions of the dog overall and then saying "find someone qualified to help you" is not irresponsible. And the reason I say "ask about their training methods and if they start talking about corrections and corrective collars right away, go elsewhere" is because the VAST majority of the "trainers" who want to use corrections want to use them first in an attempt at a quick fix. They don't care or don't have the ability to understand why a behavior is happening, they just want a band-aid. And that can be a dangerous situation. So it makes sense to recommend that people look around and find someone who has enough knowledge to not think that a prong collar and a good hard yank is the solution to all behavior problems.

GSDLover - not only would I not run from your dog, I have little doubt (given what you have posted) that I would have success with your dog that you may not ever have. I'm not boasting, but I know what I've dealt with over the past 17 years. I know what I deal with on a daily basis with the five dogs I have now. I didn't run from the wolf I worked with, and that was a VERY hard animal (who had learned that aggression was the way to back people down). If your dog is not sitting when you say "sit" unless you have a treat, then you have not used the motivation/reward properly. The treat is not what should cause your dog to sit. I'm not saying that's what's happening, I'm just taking part of your post and using it to illustrate my point.

I'm not sure what kind of experience you have .. I gather from your posts that it's limited, but that could be a misconception. I kind of doubt you've worked with hundreds of dogs, dozens that were very hard or very high-drive dogs and many with fear/aggression issues (which can be even more difficult to handle than a hard dog). I've never run screaming from any dog, or any horse, or any animal at all.

I'm leaving for a dog show in Canada and will be gone a week, so this is my last post here for now. I hope everyone has a great week (even those who DARE to disagree with me .. :D :D :D ) .. see you in a week!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
UCD Kylee Cub CDX NA NAJ CGC NJC NAC BH HIC (Chow)
Trick AKC/CKC/ASCA CD, NAP NJP RN CGC HIC (GSD)
Dora NA NAJ CGC (Chow)
Tori (GSD) and Khana (Chow)
.. and always in my heart: Dawson UD CGC HIC 2HIT (GSD)
and Lady UD CGC STDs 2HIT (Aussie)

[Mach1girl]

I havent read the entire thread, but I can say if any one of my dogs ever growled at me or one of my children or anyone elses children, they'd start the school of hard knocks, I guarantee it'd break them of it. Of course, it depends on the breed, and the damage it could cause!