Sch Question

[JennSLK]

So I'm going to be getting a Dutch Shepherd next summer and I have a random question that just popped into my head.

Lets say "no name" was a Sch II. Just for argument sake. And also WELL TRAINED.

If I whent away for a while (say a week) and had my parents (who have spent at least one weekend a month with said dog in their own home with me there) and left said dog at my parent's place (with Jazz and Emma). Would I have to worry, if say mom and dad left the house and then came back, would i have to worry about the Dutchie being protective over jazz and emma? Would I have to worry about the dutchie biteing them? What about walks? Would they not be able to take the dog for walks for risk trigering it's Sch training acidentily on a passerby?

[DanL]

Being Sch trained has nothing to do with a dog protecting or biting. A protective dog is going to be a protective dog no matter how you train it, that is an instinctive trait- and that trait won't develop for about 2 years in a shepherd. As far as biting goes- my idea has always been that a Sch trained dog is more disciplined. They need to have a stable temprament which means they are less likely to be fear biters, which is where most of your biting problems come from. They should know when they are allowed to bite and when they are not- going on a walk should not trigger a Sch training type of response. Sch, to the dog, is a game. That bite sleeve is like a tennis ball, when they see it, they know they are going to have fun. That doesn't mean a Sch dog won't bite- any dog can bite if put in the wrong situation, but to me, a dog that has reached a Sch 2 level is a highly trained and disciplined dog.

If the dog has been socialized with your parents and other dogs, you shouldn't have a problem. A Sch trained dog is normally not going to be more aggressive or defensive than another dog of the same breed.

[Julie]

I agree with Dan.

Rocket is certified in personal protection, apprehension, among others. We just had a kids camp over the weekend with about 50 or so 9-14 year olds.

She has a very stable temperment, and could be trusted to mingle with all the children. Those kids had fun too. There were also several young kids there with their parents who were counslers. Including mine. :D

So if your future dog has a stable temperment, and well socialized, I don't see a problem, but I guess it would also depend on the individual dog.

I am going to be posting some pictures today sometime, of our kids camp.
Take a look at them.

Julie.

[whatszmatter]

I just took my dog thru downtown madison around the capital to a farmer's market and down state street last weekend, thousands of people and other dogs, and she has had dog aggression issues. Kids come running up to her, people are playing frisbee and catch and acting like college kids.

She was pretty excited, but no a well bred dog, with solid nerves and temperment along with good training will result in a much safer dog in ALL situations, but you still always have to watch your dog though and be reading their signs.

Its not breed specific but Dutchies and Mal's tend to have shorter nerve's and lower thresholds for certain things so you do have to watch that. It just comes with the territory of being responsible with a bite trained dog. any potential problem can be diffused by just saying their name. Unless someone was trying to get a reaction from your dog a passerby would not ellicite that reaction from a Sch Trained dog.

I wouldn't plan on leaving your dog loose in the house while your gone any time soon though. Until they're trained they like to eat everything, usually.

[Dobiegurl]

A true schutzhund dog should be able to go anywhere and be expected to act civilized in public. A dog with a stable temperament can be turned on and off like a light switch. I feel MUCH safer around a Sch dog than a regular pet. Now, it depends on what kind of dog you want, but I don't want Ven being all excited around people and NO ONE pets him. I want him to ACCEPT and TOLERATE people but don't want him all crazy when people walk by. I want him to look at people the way he would look at a tree, nothing exciting.
Dan, I have to disagree with you on the point that GSD's don't become protective until they are around 2 years old. My trainers GSD was protective since about 6 months old and saved her life one time at that age.

[DanL]

That is probably more the extreme than the norm. Gunnar is almost 16 months old and aside from barking he isn't showing any signs of being protective. He patrols the yard, barks at strangers, but is not defensive at all. He hasn't really been put in to a situation where he needs to react like that though.

If you look at some GSD specific sites, you'll see that some GSD's don't get protective until they are 3 years old. They are a slow maturing breed.

I don't know of ANY 6 month old shepherd that could save a life. Any decent sized person could pick up a pup like that and really hurt it. Now, someone who is not familiar with them would probably be intimidated by the barking, but a 6 month old dog is no threat to me, and if I wanted to get to someone who had a pup, I could do it.

[whatszmatter]

a 6 month old GSD that actually protects some one is an absolute rarity. We just had a litter that was showing things at 6-8 months that most good dogs don't show until 12-18 months, but they were a rarity.

I think what Dan is trying to say is that most GSD's don't really gain the confidence and such till 2. That is a general number, some are full of themselves at 16 months some not till they're 3 years old. it varies, but to be mature enough to handle extremely stressful situations of real protection, a good trainer won't even tap into those things till the dog is well over a year old closer to 18-24 months depending on the dog.

now younger dogs under a year can get their hair up and act defensive, but that's more about a survival mechanism from being unsure or scared of something, than it is about actually protecting anything other than themselves. A young dog like that shouldn't be put into those situtations.

[DanL]

I played a game on Gunnar one time, when he was about 9 months old. I knew he was out back. It was dark out, and I had gone in the front gate to gather up their food bowls. I clanked the bowls together, then hunched down with my sweatshirt covering my head and face. He came racing off the deck, growling and barking, but skidded to a stop about 50' from me- still barking and growling. I jumped up real fast and shouted- he took off. Once he was behind the deck rail, he started barking and growling again. I called to him and took my hood off and he came running over, with a "you got me" attitude. So- if I was a stranger in my yard and this large dog was barking at me the way he was, I would have thought twice about why I was in the yard. Objective completed- he guarded the yard and alerted there was something wrong. Defensive? Protective? Not in the slightest. It was an interesting response from him, I pretty much expected it, and I wouldn't do it again.

[JennSLK]

thanx. Sch is still VERRY new to me so I may post some dumb questions. I hope soon to help the local Sch club with stuff and learn from them

[Dobiegurl]

don't know of ANY 6 month old shepherd that could save a life. Any decent sized person could pick up a pup like that and really hurt it. Now, someone who is not familiar with them would probably be intimidated by the barking, but a 6 month old dog is no threat to me, and if I wanted to get to someone who had a pup, I could do it.


I have to disagree, Dan. A 65 pound dog is a threat to me, just as much as a 90lb dog. The puppy didn't attack anyone. But he did sense a threat to his owner and he stood in front and protected her. It never did get down to the point of him attacking because naturally that person was scared to death.

I wouldnt have tried that with Chico when he was 6 months, he would have tore you a new a-hole, lol. Chico is no joke and has always been on the defensive agressive side (I always have him under control, so he is not a threat). I have worked very hard to tone down his protective instincts. But if someone comes after me, you better believe he would protect me.

[Dobiegurl]

thanx. Sch is still VERRY new to me so I may post some dumb questions. I hope soon to help the local Sch club with stuff and learn from them


No question is dumb. Its new to me also. Ven's my guinnea (sp) pig.

[DanL]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. The only 65lb dog that I'd worry about would be an adult one.

A 6 month old 65lb pup isn't going to stop someone my size. They simply are not mature enough to stay and fight- at that age, fight vs flight is going to end up in flight most of the time. I would never want that to happen of course- I'm speaking totally on hypothetical terms- as if I were the bad guy trying to attack someone and a puppy was in my way. I'd rather make friends with the pup! :)

Even in your example, the dog was never tested because the person got scared. Gunnar could do that at 6 months old too, even then people crossed to the other side of the street to avoid him. If it really came down to it, it'd be me defending him.

[Dobiegurl]

If it really came down to it, it'd be me defending him.

Very true, lol!!! To me protective doesnt mean attacking and stuff. It means recognizing a threat and trying to stop it. Barking is enough to deter people. And IMO that is some form of protective and defensive instinct.

[Jynx]

I agree with Dan, 9 times out of 10, a 6 month old dog is protecting/defending ITSELF, not the person with them! Yes a bark is a great deterrent, but again, they are barking for "themselves".

Diane

[Dobiegurl]

I agree with Dan, 9 times out of 10, a 6 month old dog is protecting/defending ITSELF, not the person with them! Yes a bark is a great deterrent, but again, they are barking for "themselves".

Diane


Not necessarily. The puppy could have just stayed in the car and would have been safe, but his mom was a decent distance from the car (maybe 40-50 feet away) and the dog jumped out if the car ran, and stood in front of her growling and barking. The fact that he was defending itself from a threat is irrelevant because the person was a a fair distance from the puppy, so if he was defending himself only he would have stayed his behind in the car.

[mydogswork]

I agree with everyone who said that being SCH trained has nothing to do with dogs biting for no reason. Most dog bites are from fear biting or dominant PET DOGS not Schutzund dogs! When was the last time anyone ever read about a Schtuzhund trained dog biting someone? It is always PETS. The key is having a dog that is STABLE in mind. Good dogs are not easily ruined.

As far as Schuzhund being looked at as a game....well i sort of disagree. I know alot of clubs are really "sporty" in nature but not all clubs are like that. Originally Schutzhund was a breed suitablilty test NOT a sport. It has been watered down over the years. My club hates the "sportiness" that many other clubs use in their training. All our dogs are encouraged to take the work seriously and not treat it like a game. Some need more encouragment than others but the last thing we want is soft, "sporty" dogs. YUCK. We reward our dogs when they look the helper in the eye. We force our dogs to work over top of equipment scattered all over the field, rather than a clean field. This way the dog learns its the MAN it is supposed to focus on and not th eequipment. I have seen dogs come to our club and get worked and the equipment fixation REALLY comes out because at their home field there is no equipment on the ground for the dog to focus on. Here they are forced to work around it. If our dogs go for dead equipment they are corrected and commanded back onto the man. Its amazing h ow quick some dogs pick up on this. Schutzhund clubs do not have to be "sporty" its the people who make it that way with their sporty training methods.