Is it truly submissive?

[Roxy's CD]

Ok, so, my question is, when Roxy submisses (lies down with her belly exposed) if she's gotten in trouble for, being on the couch when she's told to get off, biting too hard while playing, begging excessively etc.

Ok, so just now, I told her to get off the couch. She didn't listen right away and just looked at me and rumbled, (her way of saying &*^( off). So I stood up and firmly said OFF! and pointed to the ground, she got off every so slowly so I took a step towards her and she jumped off, lied down with her legs in the air and shows her teeth while rumbling.

What I told myself at first was it was just her "Edge". Like a dog that would never bite, but if backed into a corner it would. But I'm starting to wonder... As I've said before she is very.... protective... ah, she's a talker and some would say she's aggressive. But when it comes to me, my bf and the kids she knows her place.....

[dr2little]

Ok, so, my question is, when Roxy submisses (lies down with her belly exposed) if she's gotten in trouble for, being on the couch when she's told to get off, biting too hard while playing, begging excessively etc.

Ok, so just now, I told her to get off the couch. She didn't listen right away and just looked at me and rumbled, (her way of saying &*^( off). So I stood up and firmly said OFF! and pointed to the ground, she got off every so slowly so I took a step towards her and she jumped off, lied down with her legs in the air and shows her teeth while rumbling.

What I told myself at first was it was just her "Edge". Like a dog that would never bite, but if backed into a corner it would. But I'm starting to wonder... As I've said before she is very.... protective... ah, she's a talker and some would say she's aggressive. But when it comes to me, my bf and the kids she knows her place.....

The teeth showing and rumbling need to be taken seriously. In more than a few instances that I've dealt with, this was prelude to something more. I'm not saying that I think she's going to take a chunk out of someone, but it is a red flag. I obviously don't know your dog but I deal with a very large number of Rotti's (one of my personal favs:D ) and the "smile" is not typical unless they're very uncomfortable. I'm sure you're already practicing a non-physical leadership program with your dogs, but I'd leave no grey area for her if you're at all concerned.

[Roxy's CD]

I am 100% positive that she would never bite me, my bf or my niece and my nephew. As I've mentioned in previous posts, she is, ah, what's the word, calmly agressive with strangers. Meaning that she won't attack a stranger but if they speak to me, or her, or reach to touch her she shows her teeth.

The rumbling can't just be talking??

She's gone through one set of privates (8 weeks) to help deal with her aggressive issues, it helped me to control her, she wouldn't jump at anyone but she still shows her teeth if they invade her space. She's also taken one set (8 weeks) of group obedience. Which she did great in, didn't bother with any of the dogs and wasn't aggressive in any way with any people. And now she's back to privates for agility.

I try in every way to be dominant although my coach says to be truly dominant she shouldn't be allowed on my furniture at all. I don't like this. Period. So I try to compensate by purposely telling her to get off the couch sometimes, she listens but usually with a fuss. I know that she has a "problem" but do you think it's very serious??? The ways that I've been told that I have to do to break her out of this habit don't appeal to me or the way I want to treat my dogs. I really want to believe that it's just her "personality" and she in no way argues the fact that I am the dominant one..... I just know deep down that it has to end before it gets worse.

I just don't know how to end it without stopping her from doing things, like being on the couch, or having "say".... I've treated my little guy the same as her and he doesn't do anything like this so it just makes me believe even more that it's just her personality.... *sighs* I'm just confused on whether I need to take being "alpha" to the next level or if I should just leave her be. She's obedient 98% of the time and the rest it's not that big of a deal....

[elegy]

if she were mine there'd be no more dog on the couch, period, until this problem was solved. i'm all for dogs on the furniture, but not if they give me crap about getting off when asked. and not if they give me crap in other areas, either. furniture is a priviledge, not a right, and it's the first one i take away when i'm having problems with my dogs.

i'd hike up the nilif (http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm) a notch all the way around. growling at you when asked to do something is not acceptable, even if it is "just" talking. barking wouldn't be acceptable to me, either.

lots of people say "my dog would never bite" while ignoring the warning signs. even if it is true, i don't see why you'd want to push it. grumbling and showing teeth might be no big deal right now, but you don't want it to turn into one.

[tinksmama]

Also, she's BIG. You say the 8 weeks helped you control her, but she's still showing signs of needing more. You may think she'll be fine around just you,maybe,maybe not. But if you don't have absolute control,she can't ever be outside the house! She'll always be a risk for anyone else,and that's not good. Don't rationalize this away,she's being aggressive (in a quiet way,for now) to you.
I don't know this breed,except that they LOOK big and scary anyway,(this is coming from a person who was bitten by strange dogs at least 7 times as a child,I seemed to have a target on me somewhere) But I don't think growling is just talking at all, if you add it up with this other behavior. I really believe that these large dogs need planty of training so the owners are in complete control. Anything less,well,there are too many sad stories about those,we already all know them. Good Luck!

[Gempress]

She didn't listen right away and just looked at me and rumbled, (her way of saying &*^( off).

As I've mentioned in previous posts, she is, ah, what's the word, calmly agressive with strangers. Meaning that she won't attack a stranger but if they speak to me, or her, or reach to touch her she shows her teeth.


You definately need to take steps to fix this problem. From your descriptions, her growling is not definately not "talking" or her "edge". Roxy is bluntly saying "Back off, or I will bite you."

In my honest opinion, there is a bite waiting to happen. Roxy herself is telling you this with each grrrr. I can't stress enough....you cannot tolerate this behavior at all, especially with children in the house! You must increase her training. Do some intense obedience work. And I agree, revoke all furniture privileges. You are the boss, you control the resources.

I think you should get a professional trainer/behaviorist ASAP. Roxy's behavior has not yet escalated to biting. It's best to stop it now, before it does.

[doberkim]

i have to go with what elegy said and go beyond - you seem to be trying to deny the fact that this dog has shown EVERY SIGN she can muster that she doesn't respect you, that she is fighting your commands. She has snapped at your trainer, hasn't she?

IF she was growling at you on the couch when yo told her to get off, and you went up and pushed her, what would she do? Deep down, my feelings say she would snap at you - because she's already shown you that she has no real desire to obey you.

calmly aggressive is bullcrap, IMO. your dog is growling at strangers when they come near her, or even TALK to you????? that is unacceptable, and i have to say - the way you describe her makes this dog sound like she is an accident waiting to happen. and i dont know what methods your trainers recommended, and maybe its time to find a new trainer - but she needs something NOW and now later when she already has a bite history.

shes arguing every time she growls or shows teeth - youve mentioned here many times how she gives you crap for things, how she grumbles at this and that - thats disagreeing with what you say. she growls at people when they even talk to you - thats making her OWN decision about what is acceptable.

ive had a dog like this, and ive dealt with it for years. and i never accepted that it was his "Aggressive" personality and allowed it.
im not one for being "dominant" with dogs, but i dont think most dogs need it. but i would never sit back and allow my dog to growl at me, strangers and anyone that came near me just because they felt like it, or assume that it is their"personality" and therefore ok. my dog had a major bite history, but he went on to training and be titled - but he knew very well that aggression was unacceptable. he never yeilded to another person, but he knew **** well that i was in charge. and i never forced him to do anything, i never physically battled him.

[whatszmatter]

i agree with the rest, if this isn't taken care of, don't be suprised when the situation escalates someday into a real bite, probably to one of your younger house guests. She has given you plenty of warning signs and clues, you're ignoring them, or passing them off. This is how dog breeds end up as a news story. Take the advice given, and listen to your trainer, he/she isn't telling you to keep them off furniture for their own self, its for the good of you and your dog.

[casablanca1]

I try in every way to be dominant although my coach says to be truly dominant she shouldn't be allowed on my furniture at all. I don't like this. Period. So I try to compensate by purposely telling her to get off the couch sometimes, she listens but usually with a fuss. I know that she has a "problem" but do you think it's very serious??? The ways that I've been told that I have to do to break her out of this habit don't appeal to me or the way I want to treat my dogs. I really want to believe that it's just her "personality" and she in no way argues the fact that I am the dominant one..... I just know deep down that it has to end before it gets worse.

It sounds like what you want is to allow her on the couch, but that what she needs - for obedience, for safety, to a good future - is to be denied the couch, at least for now. It's tough, wanting to give your dog something and not being able to, but I think the 'grumbling' combined with the teeth and the existing aggression/dominance issues, means that you'll be doing your dog a favor to keep her off the furniture.

[Roxy's CD]

So is that the only step I should be taking, is not allowing her on the furniture? She's doesn't sleep on the bed but every now again we let her up to get her belly rubbed, but she does have her own doggy bed in our room.

Ok, just not she just got onto the chair. I told her "off", she gives me a strange look like she's confused, but no teeth. This is why I give in. She's not being agressive now, she's confused, like "but why mom? i'm tired!" So she just tried to move and get on the love seat I told her off again and she's lying on the floor now :(, should I give her a treat if she listens right away or should i just use my voice? I mean, since I am the dominant one I shouldn't have to reward this behaviour with food it should just happen?

So let me think. Other than the furniture.. oh yes, when people are over she licks them constantly. My trainer has said this is definite aggressive behaviour, she's demanding attention. Last night for instance I repeatedly told her to stop, no, and go away! It would work but only for a minute.

The whole stranger thing, for instance, I'm walking down the street with her. If I see someone I know and stop to talk to them, she'll sit right beside me, she'll make no movement to sniff or approach the person. If they speak to her, "Oh what a pretty girl you are?" She shows her teeth. If they go to touch her (people usually try to touch her face) she's snarls and gets up and moves away from them. Now if someone tries to touch me, she moves in front of me and snarls. My trainer has said that it's usual behaviour for a dog in her situation. (I got her young and we spent the first 6 months of her life together 24/7) Although the situation I mentioned above is an improvement.

If you have any ideas as to how I can assert my dominance without being physical please help me!! I really want to fix this, but I'm afraid of "breaking" her. I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous but I love her personality and I don't want her to become a quiet, mopey dog...

[Gempress]

If you have any ideas as to how I can assert my dominance without being physical please help me!! I really want to fix this, but I'm afraid of "breaking" her. I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous but I love her personality and I don't want her to become a quiet, mopey dog...

Awww, don't worry, it doesn't sound ridiculous. Asserting dominance won't "break" Roxy. All it will do is gain her respect and help her become a better companion. In my experience, dogs actually seem to be happier and less edgy when they know they have a good, solid leader that they can trust to take care of things.

[Roxy's CD]

Gempress if you have a minute could you come on the chat for a minute?

[ihartgonzo]

Definitely, take this seriously. My BC is also reserved with strangers. No snarling, as I do not tolerate him doing that for no reason, but he is cautious with them until he knows them well. I would NEVER, ever tolerate him growling/snarling/even raising a lip at anyone in the family, though! That should be considered a huge no-no. The only reason that could be possible, IMHO, is dominance confusion. She obviously shouldn't feel wary of you, as you're her family, so struggling to be above you is all that I can think of this being.

I think having a behaviorist come to your house will help. It helped me a LOT. It sounds like you've already had private classes, but I'm not sure if that was in-home and if she saw her behavior at home?

Definitely no furniture priveleges, and NILIF, would help. Give her attention & affection when you want to, not when she demands it. In a pack, if a lower-ranked dog was being snarky to the alpha when punished, she would be really taught a lesson!! I don't know if you're comfortable doing alpha rolls or grabbing her muzzle, though, or if it might instigate her. A real behaviorist and continued Obedience classes seem very much needed.

[RD]

I absolutely agree to take away her furniture priviledges. On top of that, I honestly would be careful with her around children. You say she "knows her place" when it comes to you, your boyfriend and the kids but really if she knew her place, she wouldn't be doing this about getting off the sofa. What if one of the kids were to sit next to her and hug her on the sofa, or tell her to get off?
As for the wariness of strangers, most dogs don't really like strangers. They bond closely with their pack and prefer those that they know well. However, that doesn't mean that uncontrolled aggression to strangers should be allowed. On the other hand, in a dog like this I would not be physically correcting behaviors like growling and the baring of teeth. These are warnings that she is going to bite, and if you correct the warning it's possible that she'll simply forego the growling and just bite immediately when irritated.

You mentioned in a post if you think you need to step up the alpha stuff and I absolutely think you do, but simply being harder on her won't make things better. I'd honestly start working her daily in something like agility, until both her mind and body are tired. When you're done working, I would give her a nice doggie bed as an alternative to the sofa; a soft place of her own where she can sleep near you and not be disturbed or told to move.

[Roxy's CD]

Sometimes what I think it is, is she'll submiss by lying on her back stomach exposed and show her teeth while she's down. So at first I thought she was like a dog backed into the corner, "I'm already down as far as I can go, I'm already submissing there's nothing more I can do except bite you if you continute.." But I am afraid it most likely is her struggle to become the alpha.

I've started today by committing to the no furniture but am confused about what else I should be doing. We already do daily obedience sessions at home and she has one private a week. I walk her everyday, she heels fine...

How else does alpha assert dominance... other than "owning things" or places like the bedroom or furniture...

[RD]

I hate to sound like Cesar Millan (:D) but a lot of it is your attitude and energy. If you are tentative and meek with Roxy, she'll want to take advantage of that.

A huge part of being the leader is being firm and consistent when you need to be. If you tell her to get off the couch and she just plants her butt down, you start keeping a leash on her and make her move when she does this. This is not a correction, but an enforcement of the command. By telling her to get off and then changing your mind, you are teaching her that you don't always mean what you say.

Dont forget to praise the heck out of her when she does the right thing with no grumbling or teeth. I personally would be periodically giving her a food reward for getting off the couch when you ask. It will be easy to wean her off of this, and the reward each time will make it very clear to her what you want her to do.

[casablanca1]

I think the key to asserting your dominance is a matter of simply making all the decisions while exuding the confidence that your dog will subordinate what she wants to what you've decided. Decide whether you want to talk to somebody on the street; if you don't, then walk away so there's no contact, or if you do, walk right over and talk to them while assuming that she'll be quiet and behaved, if not enthused. We tend to get all tensed at the situations the 'trigger' the problem behaviors, which sends the dog the clear message that we're reacting to their little neurosis. Make the dog react to you, and take her cue from you. You're confident, you're relaxed, you're in charge. And prove to her that you're able to protect her by preventing people from petting or crowding her. Be nice, but be firm. People love to pet dogs, but it's not an inalienable right to pet every dog. She may need to get socialized, but if she snarls and backs away, she's not ready for that yet. She needs to be sitting quietly and not being defensively aggressive before you try socializing.

I apologize if I've totally misread the situation and given bad advice. It's a nice theory, but everything's harder in real life and, of course, I don't really know the situation.

[gaddylovesdogs]

Cesar Milan is a very good example of what a leader should be - calm, and confident. Your dog will realize that is how you feel and realize that YOU are boss!

I would start using NILIF for everything. She wants attention? She has to sit for it (But remember - you decide whether you want to pet her or not. If you don't, ignore her). Before you hand her a treat, she must sit. Before the door is opened to go outside, she must sit, wait, and stay in that position until you give her the okay to go through the doorway. She has to lie down and wait until her food bowl is on the ground and you say she can eat. She has to sit to have her collar put on. She has to sit to have her leash put on. She has to work for EVERYTHING because you are the boss of her and what you say goes, period.

[dr2little]

Definitely, take this seriously. My BC is also reserved with strangers. No snarling, as I do not tolerate him doing that for no reason, but he is cautious with them until he knows them well. I would NEVER, ever tolerate him growling/snarling/even raising a lip at anyone in the family, though! That should be considered a huge no-no. The only reason that could be possible, IMHO, is dominance confusion. She obviously shouldn't feel wary of you, as you're her family, so struggling to be above you is all that I can think of this being.

I think having a behaviorist come to your house will help. It helped me a LOT. It sounds like you've already had private classes, but I'm not sure if that was in-home and if she saw her behavior at home?

Definitely no furniture priveleges, and NILIF, would help. Give her attention & affection when you want to, not when she demands it. In a pack, if a lower-ranked dog was being snarky to the alpha when punished, she would be really taught a lesson!! I don't know if you're comfortable doing alpha rolls or grabbing her muzzle, though, or if it might instigate her. A real behaviorist and continued Obedience classes seem very much needed.

OMG ABSOLUTELY NO!!! Never, ever try doing an alpha roll or muzzle grab. No certified behaviorist would ever give this kind of dangerous advise. ABSOLUTELY NEVER punish for growling, unless you want an unpredictable dog who bites without warning. These are all signs that you need to establish leadership for your whole family in a NON-PHYSICAL manor in order to keep everyone safe. Everything from access to furniture, outdoors, food, affection, sleeping quarters can be controlled without "breaking" your dog. Using positive reinforcement for compliance every time at first will ensure your bond not only remains but grows. Leash her while in the house so that if you do ask her to get off of the couch, you can take the end of the leash and gently ensure that she complies (praise when she does), without having to "push" her down and risk a situation.
I was reluctant to post this but I think it's worth sharing. I was at a bite case recently that illustrates what can happen if problems are left un checked. This was a female chocolate lab (4years old) who had been showing her teeth and growling for almost a year whenever was uncomfortable. The owner ignored these red flags because she was such a sweet dog in so many ways. When they finally called the Vet (who contacted me), the woman had 28 stiches in her face. She tried to kiss her dog on the nose...it happened so fast, she's also 4 months pregnant and her husband witnessed the horrible event. I can only guess that when the dog bit, the gal pulled away and it all resulted in opening her face from her nose to almost her chin. Again, this dog had no bite history and had never even snapped before. They are keeping the dog as they know this incident could have been avoided. I'm just praying they will be compliant owners..:(
I have put her on a very strict version of the "no free lunch" program along with many other changes and work to be done. This dog has no food bowl, each kibble is delivered in payment for a behavior. All of her resources are under control. Absolutely no physical punishment, which was part of her life prior to this bite, and probably contributed to this awful outcome.
It is so important that you find someone who deals with aggression, not just a dog trainer but someone who has a current and ongoing education with respect to this issue. Many people still deal with aggression incorrectly. The use of physical correction is absolutely not acceptable and will put you and your family (and altimately your dog) in harms way.

[Roxy's CD]

She wants attention? She has to sit for it (But remember - you decide whether you want to pet her or not. If you don't, ignore her). Before you hand her a treat, she must sit. Before the door is opened to go outside, she must sit, wait, and stay in that position until you give her the okay to go through the doorway. She has to lie down and wait until her food bowl is on the ground and you say she can eat. She has to sit to have her collar put on. She has to sit to have her leash put on. She has to work for EVERYTHING because you are the boss of her and what you say goes, period.

We do this already:) This may sound ridiculous but I think I've already seen a change. All day today so far it's 4pm where I am, I've been sending her off the couch. She stopped trying to get on the couch around 12. And if she did try and I told her to get off she hasn't shown me the teeth all day, but she has rumbled a couple of times.


RD That sounds like what I truly need to do. Just all around act like the alpha combined with taking away her furniture privileges. *sighs* I really hope I can regain my status as alpha without changing her completely though.

Thanks for all of the advice, I think I've ingested it all, and I'll be trying to apply it today. I'll give updates. :)

[stevinski]

my puppy is doing something similiar atm

when i give him a command and he ignores it i put him into the corect position, and sometimes he tries to bite me and he growls!
hes a terrier and there supposed to be stubborn.
hes 14 weeks
my trainer out him in the down and he tried to bite, and as soon as he went for her he got a little spray in the face wid some water (sounds harsh but it isnt), after two sprays he didnt bite me at all for tht session, and became much quicker at responding to commands.
with training at home i have used this method and it seems to be working

maybe you should try,
as soon as she tries to bite you or growls just give her a little spray, it might only be a technique for puppies but its just a idea

[RD]

Being in charge doesn't mean breaking her spirit or suppressing her personality. I let my dogs be dogs quite often, but sometimes I draw the line at how much they can "express themselves". When they were young, they didn't like it, but now they've just gotten used to it.
That's good that you think shes improving! Good luck.. keep us posted, please?

[gaddylovesdogs]

We do this already:) This may sound ridiculous but I think I've already seen a change. All day today so far it's 4pm where I am, I've been sending her off the couch. She stopped trying to get on the couch around 12. And if she did try and I told her to get off she hasn't shown me the teeth all day, but she has rumbled a couple of times.

Okay, I'm glad. You just have to be really strict and bossy in a way. I have one dog who has a more dominant personality, and I'm just really strict with her. She's a lot different than when I wasn't as strict.

[JennSLK]

when i give him a command and he ignores it i put him into the corect position, and sometimes he tries to bite me and he growls!
hes a terrier and there supposed to be stubborn.
hes 14 weeks
my trainer out him in the down and he tried to bite, and as soon as he went for her he got a little spray in the face wid some water (sounds harsh but it isnt), after two sprays he didnt bite me at all for tht session, and became much quicker at responding to commands.
with training at home i have used this method and it seems to be working

He's 14 weeks. He doesnt know any comands 100% IMO so he's not ignoring you.

[RedyreRottweilers]

If she were my dog, here is exactly what I would do....

I would control every single aspect of her life.

First, she would not sleep inside my bedroom, nor be allowed in there AT ALL.

Bedroom priveleges (FLOOR ONLY) are for respectful dogs who know their position in the pack hierarchy.

I would put up a baby gate, and until she learned her place, she would not even ENTER my bedroom.

Second, she would NOT be up on ANY furniture. She in fact, would not be loose in my house AT ALL unless I was there to directly supervise her actions.

She would be spending a fair amount of time in a crate or outdoors, and she would enter and exit all crates and doorways ONLY with my permission.

She would sit before all meals, and before going out any doorway.

She would have controlled exercise daily. Walks, biking, fetch, swimming, etc. A tired dog is a good dog.

I would REALLY concentrate on controlling all this dog's resources. Toys? I would hand them out, and put them back away. *I* control the toys.

Food? I would feed this dog on a firm schedule, and she would sit or down and wait for at least 15 seconds before EACH meal.

Obedience would be done EVERY day. She would do a long down with chin on the floor during each mealtime.

The petting and affection this dog received would be seriously limited for several weeks, and she would earn every touch she got.

I am with the others. DO NOT KID YOURSELF. This dog WILL bite if put in the wrong position. She is clearly telling you this. Be smart and listen, and start controlling her life.

I guarantee you she will be happier for it in the long run, and so will you.

:D

[Roxy's CD]

So Red, you don't think controlling the furniture is enough?

In the bedroom she knows her place. She only comes up on the bed when we allow her, (which won't be happening anymore, even though she's never given me any sort of "lip" when it came to getting off). She has her own doggy bed which she will go to when I say it's bed time. She never jumps on the bed unless called to. (as I said which I reluctuantly will NOT do anymore)

I already do obedience with her once a day, and she goes on hour long walks off leash every night.

As for the food, *sigh* I can't really put her on a schedule, I've tried and she didn't eat for a week... she just eats enough to maintain. Her bones and stuff I take away from her a lot no growling or back talk with that.

It's now 10pm. She hasn't been on the furniture all day, we did our obedience and we went for a walk to pick up the kids. Oh, I lied when I got back from Hades lesson I was stressed so she cuddled with me on the couch for a minute, but when I got up I told her off and she complied without any lip. I'm really starting to think that she'll let me be dominant if I just start acting like it all around. She's figured out quite quickly that I'm serious now, and today when I told her to stop begging I didn't let her get the last word (it wasn't aggressive talking but it was back talk none the less)

We already do the door way thing. Have for about 4 months. (I was sick of getting trampled everytime we went out. lol)


The petting and affection this dog received would be seriously limited for several weeks, and she would earn every touch she got.

*gasps* really???? I don't think I could do that.... :|

I will take the toys away though. I'll have more updates, I'm very optimistic after just the very minute change I made today! :) Thanks for all the advice.

[RD]

*gasps* really???? I don't think I could do that.... :|

It's not that hard. I have to do this periodically with Ripley, who gets snarky about demanding attention. They just have to earn affection. If you want to pet Roxy, have her sit first. Over the past year or two it has become a reflex with me - I don't pet my dogs without asking them to do something first.