Sterilization..?

[Brattina88]

Okay, I need some serious HELP!!!

As some of you may know my little Shih Tzu Carly has been living away from me for several weeks now. She's been doing quite good! However, I recieved a voicemail notification 2 or 3 days ago from her new Mom that has just about sent me off the deep end!

She started off by asking if Carly was spayed. I freaked immediatly. I'd had Carly since she was -what?- 3wks old? The rescue was in complete control of her medically until I adopted her. They did her shots, worming, heart worm and flee medication, ect. Her shot records display "Sterilized" before the female white and tan description, but I deffinetly don't remember her having surgery. I am also 99.99% sure that she never went into heat in her [almost] 2yrs of living with me!

Trying not to panic I called her back and asked her why she asked me that. She replied very bluntly that her 4yr toy fox terrier or JRT I don't remember which was "humping" Carly. Is he nuetered? No. I called and made a vet appt to figure out what in the heck is going on (she WILL be spayed!) I half to split the cost with her new owner... This is a nightmare... because she called me yesterday night and said that IF Carly was prego she would Not be aborting because she's against abortion (I tried talking her out of this, but she's pregnant herself and YOU try to talk a pregnant woman into abortion!!)

:confused:

I need H E L P and somebody please calm me down :eek:

[poodlesmom]

Just because her male dog is humping does not mean that Carly isn't spayed. They do this many times as a form of dominance or just in playing. Both Farley & Chloe were done at 6 mos. old and to this day on occasion Farley will still try to hump Chloe. Of course, she lets him know in no uncertain terms that she doesn't appreciate it.:D

[Brattina88]

I know that :p

My point is I don't ever remember her getting spayed. I don't think she is. Is it possible for her to go 2yrs and not spot + go into heat?
She lived with me since about 3wks old, there was never shaving, stiches, advice on post-surgery care, ect ect. The only time spent away from me was a day or two here and there, for shots, check ups and temperment tests.

I'm thinking this is a horrible miscommunication about her being sterilized

[Saje]

I'm so confused. How can you not know if your dog got spayed? It says sterilized in her paperwork? Didn't you take her for follow-up/yearly shots???? :confused:

[Brattina88]

She wasn't my dog, I was just fostering her
I took her in for shots afterwards, a check up on her eyes and stuff, but it was never an issue so it was never checked.
Yes, it does say that on her paper work, which is why it was never questioned.

[Saje]

Oh, missed that part. Well then it sounds like there's a good chance she was fixed.

[Brattina88]

I really hope so, because that would defeat the whole purpose of rescuing and fostering :rolleyes:

[doberkim]

so is she or is she not your dog?
you say YOUR dog is living away from you for awhile. is she yours or not?

if she isnt yours anymore, what rescue adopts to someone who has an intact male that isnt showing?
if she is yours, then it doesnt much matter what the other person things, shes your dog and should go and be spayed if she isnt.

[Brattina88]

Okay, I'm sorry I'm not too clear with my posts. I guess I assume everyone knows my whole life story - lol

Carly came to me as a foster at a very young age. I did my thing, raised and trained her ect ect They did temperment tests and said she wasn't ready to be placed. That happened twice after serious socialization and specific training for the behaviors they didn't like. Finally I just kind of accepted the fact that she was mine (she was probably a little over a year old at that time.

I have some very personal problems going on right now, she had some issues with other family members and dogs. It started with my co-worker (the woman she is living with now) dog-sitting on the weekends while I went camping with the other two. We love camping, and she does not. After a while Carly was spending quite a bit of time at her house, they were spending loads of money on her, and she would beg me to be able to keep her another night.
We decided that she should adopt Carly, so I called the rescue and they sent paperwork. Done deal

Then I got the call questioning about her being spayed or not. . .

[filarotten]

If she was only 3 weeks old when you got her, when would they have spayed her? Are puppys spayed that young?

[Brattina88]

I guess that's my point. Something has slipped up, it says she's sterilized, but I don't think she is. I feel like a horrible fostermum because it completely went over my head and honestly never got done . . . And the rescue is clueless . . . :confused:

I don't understand how a mistake like this could've slipped by ever single person involved in this... the rescue, the vet, even me

I'm calling her owner this afternoon to see what's going on, how Carly is doing, and when the vet appt. is.

[tessa_s212]

If she's lived with you for 2 years and never had a heat, and is not in heat right now(dog trying to mate with her), then she is not and cannot become pregnant.

Yes, talk to the vet or someone that has some knowledge to explain to you how/when the dog was sterilized. It is probably all just a bit of confusion.

Is there any chance the JRT was just trying to prove dominance? I tell ya, those JRTs sure are dominant little suckers! :p

[Boxerowner]

It sounds to me like they are clueless!

For 1 a reputable rescue would never adopt out a dog if the other dog in the family is not neutered.

and 2 they wouldn't have adopted to someone expecting a new baby.
JMO....not meant to hurt or be rude:D

[Brattina88]

Oh, I totally agree! But its one of the only rescues in the area, and the others aren't much better. I would deffinetely suggest that someone in my area would look for a dog at the shelter first.
This is not the first time I've had problems with them. Years ago I fostered a GSD, and they totally and completely forgot about the dog. No one knew she was avaliable for adoption, and I had to constantly call them when she was due for shots, heartworm and flea preventative.

This is why I'd much rather self-foster from the kill-pound, though its more expensive, but then I can be responsible for the dog and not have to worry about *those people* over my head.

Edit: I wanted to add that a shelter refused me as a foster parent because I had three dogs at the time. They didn't want me to be overwelmed, or the dogs placed in my care to be overlooked. I was a little hurt, but at the same time that is smart thinking. This rescue doesn't care how many dogs I have, I have fostered more than one at a time before. I can do it, and the dogs are fine there's no doubt about it, but I feel as if the dogs' best interest weren't number one in those cases. . . :confused:

[LabBreeder]

but why did you adopt out a dog to a family with an un-neutered male? especially if you didn't know about her medical history or if she'd been spayed. did the new owners not care before hand, did a vet NEVER get asked about it, was the paperwork wrong? so many questions and very few answers.

[tessa_s212]

LabBreeder, though you may not be meaning to.. you are sounding a bit harsh.. I assure you, Brattina is a good dog owner that does her best. She, herself, is only the foster mom. She does not own or run the rescue program.

[LabBreeder]

no, no...i wasn't talking about her...i was meaning the other person, the one she gave the dog to.

[LabBreeder]

ok, i looked...it is worded kinda bad...and it does look like it's towards her....it's more towards the "new" owner. but i would like to know why the dog was placed with an unneutered male if there was any question about her being fixed?

[Brattina88]

Thanks, Tessa
Don't worry about it LabBreeder ;) I type and post before I make sure my posts make any sense sometimes :p

Honestly I am asking myself the very same questions!
There was never a question of Carly being spayed. I think everyone just kind of assumed she was... which is crazy...!
I honestly don't think the rescue even looked at the application... how could they've and still adopted to her??? She has an intact male, a baby on the way, and it turns out she has outdoor barn cats that are delievering or are due soon.

The new owners weren't concerned about any of her health or behavioral issues. They knew they would take care of it either way. They just knew the dog, had watched her at their house, and loved her and wanted to keep her (who doesn't? lol)

She's a really nice lady, she's responsible and dependable. I used to work with her. The terrier is technically her boyfriends who is like a lot of ---- guys I know that will not even think about nuetering a male dog because of "manliness" or something :confused: I agree that this is not the ideal time for her to adopt a new dog, or deal with these circumstances right now, but if anyone can do it she can.

Ultimatly I have the strangest feeling of *I want my dog back* which is really not an option. . .

I'm calling MY vet and hopefully the secretary will let me talk to him on the phone. The new owner's vet apparently said we should "wait and see what happens" :mad: wtf is going on here???
I think the vet should've suggested her to come in for a spay (if she really isn't already) !

[Renee750il]

Brattina, sometimes communications just get snarled up and paperwork gets done sloppily when someone is in a hurry. There was no reason for you to question whether Carley had been spayed or not since she never went into heat. Sometimes you do your very best and things still go awry.

Now, stop kicking yourself! Now! ;)

[wildwings811]

It should be easy to tell does she have a scar on her belly and is she in heat if not she can't become pregnant you need to be asking some questions

[Bailey+Ralph]

3 weeks old sounds very young to be spayed (but then hey, i never owned a Bitch, so what would i know).
If she was with you for 2 years then you would have noticed her being in season!
I think that possibly the new owner is a little paranoid that her dog jumped on her and done the "humping" motion............Bailey and Ralph do this to each other and sometimes Bailey will try it with my leg.........but i wouldn't "assume" that they were impregnating each other or my legs...LOL
I think that the dog is just having some fun and doing the dominance thing.
If the Bitch isn't spayed then the Rescue Center really need to be looked into b/c they have put this on her paperwork.

BTW: You seem as though you do a great job taking care of these dogs.....Well done to you :)

[joce]

I can't see the scar anymore on two of my dogs so if its been that long I doubt you'd be able to see it.

Couldn't they knock her out and do some laproscopy without completely opening her up?

[doberkim]

im just curious tessa, for arguments sake, how do you KNOW *any* of us are good owners?

for all you know, we could all be complete liars and not have any dogs at all. i think its dangerous to assume that just because someone posts on a board and sounds nice, that they are *good* pet owners. ive known many people who lie completely about who they are online - weve had them on this very board too!

[Bailey+Ralph]

im just curious tessa, for arguments sake, how do you KNOW *any* of us are good owners?

for all you know, we could all be complete liars and not have any dogs at all. i think its dangerous to assume that just because someone posts on a board and sounds nice, that they are *good* pet owners. ive known many people who lie completely about who they are online - weve had them on this very board too!

I would like to think that everyone here are good pet owners and nice people.
As you said anyone can say anything, but usually they will trip themselves up and it will become pretty clear in a short space of time that they are not who they appear to be.

[Brattina88]

Thanks Renee :D


I am not a vet, but 3wks really does seem awfully young. That's why I was very concerned, as no one I called or talked to could show me proof.

It should be easy to tell does she have a scar on her belly and is she in heat if not she can't become pregnant you need to be asking some questions
That's not completely true. When its done young, and depending on the dog's skin, there isn't always a scar to see. Maddie doesn't have a scar, and you can barely see Missy's, and hers was done real recently!!
And I am asking questions ! ;)


If she was with you for 2 years then you would have noticed her being in season!
...............
If the Bitch isn't spayed then the Rescue Center really need to be looked into b/c they have put this on her paperwork.

BTW: You seem as though you do a great job taking care of these dogs.....Well done to you
Thanks B+R, that means a lot to me. I think people think its really easy to foster dogs, get them healthy and train them until the rescue thinks they're ready to be placed. And on top of all of that placement is so challenging, every time.
That's why I was so confused... 2yrs and no heat, but no proof of a spay? Believe you and me, I called and chewed out the rescue. I want to cut off all ties with them, but I'm afriad a dog will run out of luck if I do. What do you guys think?


So, here's what happened ~
I met the current owner and Carly at the Vet's office and waited with her while Carly was examined. They did an ultrasound(?? I guess that's what its called) when we told him what the problem was, and showed him the paperwork (his paper work said that she was sterilized too!) but explained to him that there is no documentation of it actually being done. He agreed, and checked because his practice won't spay at 3 weeks :confused:
And, naturally, I was right to freak out. Carly is fully intact.
I feel like an idiot!!
Some of her behavioral problems that were blammed on her not having a mom or littermates probly could've been helped by being spayed. The Vet said (while I was in hysterics, of course :rolleyes: ) that she probably had one or two silent heats, especailly since I'd never had a male, or other intact females, around her. It still doesn't make any sense to me!!

The rescue is going to pay her new owner to have her spayed... better late than never? I think not. I'm feeling kind of grudge-holding and revengeful right now
-- I'm off to go research silent heats and try not to beat myself bloody myself because I feel like a horrible foster mom!!!

[princess_poppy]

this is not your fault, stop blameing yourself! if she has had silent heats then dont kick yourself for not noticeing!

[Renee750il]

Kharma had a couple of "silent" heats early on. What saved us is the way Bimmer was acting keyed us to watch, and fortunately, Filas' have a hood over their vulvas that is constructed so that the least bit of swelling is very noticeable - if you're looking. Carly has enough coat that it would be next to impossible to see any swelling! And if she wasn't around any males and didn't bleed, there's no way you'd ever know.

[bubbatd]

I agree... don't blame yourself... I've never known it as " sterilization"... especially at 3 wks old !! Also , I've never fostered over 4 months. This is a warning sign for all who rescue to read the fine lines and between the lines. Though I fed my fosters, I could never had paid for many other costs. Yes, I'd donate some $ , but other wise some of my guys could have cost me many hundreds.... especially the 2 that were heart worm positive. On my SS all I could do was feed, give TLC etc.. and give an occasional prevenitive pill or application. Otherwise, I'd have 2 dogs... but I can't afford 2.

[Brattina88]

This is a warning sign for all who rescue to read the fine lines and between the lines.

This is not the first time there has been a miscomunication... and I doubt the last. I am so frustrated by the way things are being run right now, and I think I posted earlier that I wanted to be "done" with this particular rescue - at least for a while.

I had a call on my machine to call one of the foster managers. I called him back and he wanted to meet with me (yesterday)... I knew right away something was up.

Now usually I have a pretty level head and a civil tongue, but almost right after meeting accusations started flying around. I mean, I already feel guilty enough, but how can they really blame this on me? As if I didn't have other dogs at the time to worry about as well.
some pretty hurtful things were said to me. At first I was very angry and very deffensive. :mad: After I shot off at the mouth a couple of times right back at him, I switched into hurt and quite mode... :(

I told him that I was through with the rescue. I told him I didn't want anymore newsletters, pamphlets, phone calls or foster dogs from them.

I went home and cried. :(

I then called Autumn, one of the "managers" that really got me started in fostering and stuff. She could tell I was upset, and had already heard that I was through with them. She tried to talk me out of it, but I refused. I told her casually that if there was ever a real emergency I'd rather her call me than have a dog pts... but I don't think they ever will call me again.

I'm done. I'm really sad about it right now -- I can't help but feel as if I'm failing needy dogs, but enough is enough. I felt used and abused because of their crappy 'system'.

[Renee750il]

Sounds like someone was trying to cover his own ass . . . also sounds like he needs a big-top tent to do the job . . .

((((HUGS)))) Brattina . . .

[Bailey+Ralph]

I am so sorry that things worked out the way that they have. :(
But this wasn't your fault so please don't beat yourself up over it.
You are one of the very good ppl that will do all they can to help rescues, it is just a shame that your kindness was taken advantage of!

[Brattina88]

Thank you both so much. It means a lot to me...

I'm still a little hurt over it, but sooner or later something like this would've happened with me, or somebody else because of the way things were being run. I think in a couple of days instead of being so upset I'll be a little relieved

:(

[ihartgonzo]

Don't feel bad or as if you've failed anyone! You have done SO much more than the vast majority of people to help homeless animals, and you've found this little girl a great home. It is absolutely the rescues fault, blaming you is totally a ploy to cover up their disorganization. We can all tell you're totally in this for the pups, and you should be proud of yourself for all of the work/money/time you've put in and what you've done. =) I definitely admire you for that.

We've fostered 2 dogs, and the rescue completely took care of all of the dogs health needs - neutering, shots, meds, etc. That is not your responsibility, you provide them with a secure home & training, they provide the health needs (unless otherwise mentioned, which it was not). I also know of a lot of rescues that list the dogs as "altered", even though they aren't! It's like an automatic thing, because they assume the dogs WILL be altered at the appropriate age. Our puppy was listed as "altered", but he isn't and won't be until he's 6 months old.