Alpha Rolls

[homelessdog]

What is an alpha roll, and what are you thoughts on it?

I was watching an episode of The Dog Whisperer where Cesar Millan was dealing with a dog aggressive bulldog and at several points he rolled the dog onto his back and held him down by the neck stating that the dog needed to be submissive. This sounded like an alpha roll to me, and I've always heard that such training methods are cruel and outdated. If this is not an alpha roll, can someone explain the difference to me.

Thanks.

[Debi]

I know lots of people are gonna tell you not to do it unless you are really, really experienced in dog handling. I'd never attempt it....it could go very wrong and you'd get yourself a nasty bite. If I were having severe aggression problems with my dog, I'd take them to a professional. I'm not sure if it's cruel.......but I do think it's risky. :)

I was having problems with Addie being snippy.....and I know for sure, If I would have tried to roll her.......I would have REALLY had a bite at that moment!!

[oriondw]

I've read different opinions on it. There are few that say the way we do alpha rolls are not right, and they should be done by dog respecting you and not by physicall action.

Teach the puppy from young age, pet his bottom neck, behind ear and he will roll over in joy, and you praise them.

What you described is an alpharoll some people advocate as well. The Cesar guy was making a big gamble on doing that with a new dog. I know if a stranger tried to roll my dog he would be very dead very fast.

I think the first method is more effective as it teaches them that roll is good and they willingly do it, instead of forcefully submitting them. ( willing is always better then forced ;) )

There are many more methods which are more effective then that alpha roll i guess that makes it outdated, and cruel because you could hurt the animal while pinning it down.

[Renee750il]

Debi and Orion are on the money, I think. I've used a technique of rolling my dogs over on their backs a few times, but it wasn't to force them to submit, it was to get them to focus on me. It was particularly useful one time when Shiva was very panicky and just couldn't get focused.

Rather than hold them down by the neck, I just placed my hand gently on the chest and softened my voice to talk while slowly massaging the chest and using my other hand to stroke the head and muzzle. I've found that massaging the back of Shiva's neck while she's in this position chills her out immediately. I've wondered if it's some residual, subconscious memory of her mother picking her up by the neck. Anyway, it puts them in the right frame of mind for one of our little nose-to-snout conferences.

Just an aside for cat owners: I've calmed down some wildly panicked cats just by grasping the back of the neck, down closer to the shoulder blades just like mama-cat would do. Don't pick up a grown cat like this, but you can hold the cat by the scruff while supporting it by cradling.

[CreatureTeacher]

You could probably all have guessed this: I HATE alpha rolls. But I'll explain why, so I don't come off as a wacko. :)

First of all, the whole idea of "dominating" your dog is outdated and cruel in my opinion. Domination doesn't translate well between humans and dogs. In using these antiquated methods to try to send the message that we're in charge, we are miscommunicating. The message the dog gets is this: "This person doesn't respect me. He is unpredictable and violent, and it would be best if I just stayed out of his way." These methods DO NOT play on a dog's natural social behavior in the way we think they do. They do work most of the time, in that they accomplish their goal: the dog will behave itself in a way it thinks will please the trainer out of fear, and a natural desire to avoid confrontation. But of course, you will get the occasional dog that will instead go with the theory that the best defense is a good offense, and they will defend themselves against the threat we've presented. This is how trainers, owners, and handlers get bitten, and how perfectly innocent dogs get euthanized.

It is NOT necessary to dominate your dog. Trainers that use punishment (let's call them "dummies" for the sake of arguement) will tell you that you have to be the "alpha", the top dog in charge of your family pack. But I've never met a dog yet that couldn't tell the difference between a person and another dog. Dogs aren't stupid--they know we aren't other dogs. Therefore they can't interact socially with us in the same way they interact with their own kind, just like I don't go, "Oh aren't you just the prettiest boy!" to my boyfriend. Our dogs aren't looking to us for dominance. They look for leadership. There is a huge difference; people who dominate--dictators--are resented, feared, and eventually rebelled against. Good leaders are respected, loved, and admired. To get from your dog the kind of loving respect conducive to a healthy relationship, you have to earn it. You have to demonstrate that you're willing to respect him in return. Punishment dummies humiliate their dogs, and if they could talk they (the dogs) would probably admit--out of earshot of the dummy, of course--that they in fact had little respect for said dummy.

Second, the alpha roll is a hideous mutation of a behavior observed among social canines. Dummies got the idea for the alpha roll and "scruff shake" from watching the social interactions between dogs. What they don't understand--and what any canine behaviorist worth their weight in dust can tell you--is that between dogs, these are not high-impact wrestling moves. As Orion said, the subject of these maneuvers is a willing participant. These are ritual behaviors that strengthen social bonds, and are actually extremely gentle actions. They can be compared to humans shaking hands. You don't snatch up someone's hand and jerk them around by it, that would be rude and could get you hurt. It's the same with dogs. They aren't fighting. In fact, a healthy dog will do anything in its power to avoid getting in a fight. This is why they have such complex methods of communication. If you lived in a house with twenty other people and every one of you had a sharpened carpet knife, you would probably do your best to talk over any disagreements before they got serious. Dogs have an entire mouth full of carpet knives, and they know that their knives are for hunting and eating--not for hurting each other. They only use their teeth on each other (or on people, for that matter) when all other social options have been exhausted.

Third, I don't understand why dummies would use methods like the alpha roll to accomplish something that can be done in an easier, safer, and more respectful way. They want the dog to acknowlege their leadership. Fine! Then show them that you're worthy to lead them! If you attack them occasionally (which is exactly what you're doing when you force them to the ground by their neck) and just putz around the rest of the time, why on earth would they see you as someone to be looked up to? They may tiptoe around you, but you've done nothing to show them your leadership skills. Living with a dog successfully is something that needs to be worked for constantly, not just once a week at the trainer's office. They have to see in everyday interaction that their leader is capable. If they believe otherwise, their genes tell them it's time for a change in leadership for everyone's sake, and they will attempt to demonstrate their own ability to lead.

If dummies could just take a minute to think about their actions, and more importantly to try to understand how their dog feels about their actions, I would have a lot less people calling me as a last resort before they put their "aggressive", "dominant", "stubborn", or "stupid" dog to sleep.

I guess my point is, there are other ways to do this!! Don't ever ever ever listen to a trainer that says, "This is the only way." It's not! There are always dozens of ways to communicate a particular concept to a dog. Some of them are more effective than others. Compassion and cooperation are always more effective than fear and bullying.

[Renee750il]

Emma, I would think, too, that those aggressive alpha rolls and scruff shakings that erroneously try to mimic pack behaviour is just setting some dogs up to challenge the "dominant" owner for position at some point.

You got to kind of wonder if this kind of thing doesn't contribute to some of the so-called "attacks" and bites by larger dogs.

[CreatureTeacher]

You got to kind of wonder if this kind of thing doesn't contribute to some of the so-called "attacks" and bites by larger dogs.
I think it contributes to a LOT of attacks. People say, "He just bit me out of the blue! I didn't get any warning!" But I'd be willing to bet the farm that that dog had been warning that person for a good long while. The person just didn't understand the warnings, and the dog thought they were being ignored so he moved on to a communication he knew she couldn't ignore.

If you go out and ask a punishment trainer how many times they've been bitten while training, they'll probably have a dozen harrowing stories to tell you. I have NEVER been bitten while training a dog. The difference is that I listen to and respect their communications, rather than jerking them around until they feel that they have to defend themselves.

[Renee750il]

We all know that dogs don't just bite for no reason, and I've harped on it a lot - you can bet there is a human being behind the reason for the bite!

[juliefurry]

I have done an alpha roll to Mack once, just recently actually. He has been getting very dominanting to us and the other dogs and the NILIF just isn't working as well as isolation training. It didn't do anything really for him, he was chilled out for a day and then went right back to thinking he was boss. We really have to stick to the NILIF program for him though because he needs to get the feeling that he is boss out of his head or he will bite someone.

[gaddylovesdogs]

I am using NILIF for Tippy. She is getting better with her dog agression, but we've still got some work ahead of us. I've alpha-rolled once, and won't do it again. I do play with them laying on their backs regularly though.

[Doberluv]

ALPHA ROLLS = BIG, HUGE MISTAKE! Don't do 'em.

[bridey_01]

I'm totally down on the alpha rolls and scruff shakes. Some people KNOW it doesn't work, yet still do it. I had a client recently who I was helping with some behavioural issues, and I noticed that when giving hand signals her dog would wince and duck. Sometimes he would run away. She admitted that she had alpha rolled him numerous times and said to me "I know it doesn't work, but I just get so pi**d of with him". Needless to say it had started with alpha rolls and progressed into collar twisting, forcing him down, near choking him and PUNCHING him in the nose! Needless to say my people skills weren't up for being polite to her, so I gave her an earful and told her she was lucky if I didn't report her.

[casablanca1]

The 'alpha roll' thing seems to be either dangerous or pointless. If the dog's at all nervous or aggressive, forcing them down is going to trip all their wires and you'll be lucky not to get threatened or bit. If the dog is stable and sensible, forcing them down is just bullying on the owner's part, and doesn't clear up the training issue. The first situation solves itself, but in the second the bullying is going to get worse over time because that alpha roll business isn't doing what the owner had hoped so they'll increase the pressure.

[carolinajewel]

None of this works on a pit bull... Everyone says it is the way u raise ur dog. "The owner made them mean" I put my Pit to sleep. He would even attack me. I would never recomend a pit as a pet. No matter how much love and tenderness I showed him, he was still mean.

[SummerRiot]

I would never recomend a pit as a pet. No matter how much love and tenderness I showed him, he was still mean.

I'm sorry but I'll have to say and Pitbulls ARE good dogs.. its not the breed its the owners and breeding that make them bad.

My GRANDMOTHER had a pit and she was SOO friendly and affectionate and got along well with our dogs.

its all in how they are raised and what their breeding is.

its said that if the mother is aggresive the pups will more then likely be aggresive..
If the owner is aggresive, then the dog will become aggresive..

[IliamnasQuest]

Ahh, yes - the good ol' alpha roll. It was such an accepted way of doing things back in the "old days" of training. It's what I was taught initially and I used it thinking that my instructors knew what they were doing.

But as Emma so clearly explained, the alpha roll doesn't develop a leadership - it develops a relationship based on fear and often resentment. And if someone tries to do an alpha roll on a truly dominant dog, they may very well lose part of their face.

Being the leader is so important but it is done through calm, fair rules and not through the use of force. When the dog respects you and views you as leader, they will readily give to you and roll onto the ground. All of my dogs trust me, and I can put my hand on their neck and press them gently down with one hand - and they all will just fold to the ground and lay on their sides (and then expect some belly rubs, of course).

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned about the alpha roll is that people use it because it can appear to have the "right" effect at the time it's done. You alpha roll the dog, the dog appears to give in, and when you let it up you often have a dog that now seems to respond better. Of course, this is because the dog is fearful at this point but to the uneducated this seems like a good thing. Force often APPEARS to work which is why so many people continue to use it.

And another thing that punishment techniques such as the alpha roll do: they can teach a dog to hide the precursors leading to aggression. I was taught to punish the dog for every little sign of aggression - meaning if the dog growled, lifted a lip, hackled up, etc. I was to immediately pop on the corrective collar or put the dog into an alpha roll. What I found is that these dogs often learned to not growl, lift a lip or hackle up, but it didn't mean that the aggression (often increased because the fear was increased) went away. So then you had a dog that would go from appearing to be calm straight into full attack because we humans - in our infinite stupidity - had actually taught them that the warning signs were bad.

There are such wonderfully great methods out there to use, and it saddens me that people are still using such harsh methods on their dogs. And it saddens me even more that someone on TV who is promoting himself as a DOG WHISPERER is using this technique. The concept of "whisperer" in the horse world had to do with kindness and understanding, and that's not what's being put out there in the dog world.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[elegy]

None of this works on a pit bull... Everyone says it is the way u raise ur dog. "The owner made them mean" I put my Pit to sleep. He would even attack me. I would never recomend a pit as a pet. No matter how much love and tenderness I showed him, he was still mean.

there are mean, unstable dogs of all breeds. his being a pit bull didn't make him mean. him being unstable (and likely poorly bred) made him mean.

[Dobiegurl]

None of this works on a pit bull... Everyone says it is the way u raise ur dog. "The owner made them mean" I put my Pit to sleep. He would even attack me. I would never recomend a pit as a pet. No matter how much love and tenderness I showed him, he was still mean.


Well, YOU probably didn;t know what you were doing with your dog. Pits are VERY good dogs, I had one when I was like 5 and my mother trusted that dog with me more than any other dog we have owned. How dare you say they are bad dogs, just because you had a bad experinece with one, and I am willing to bet it WASN"T the dogs fault, but rather the owner's.

As for the "alpha" rolls I do not feel that you must be physical to achieve leadership. The NILIF is a great way to establish leadership because you are not forcing your dog to be submissive but the dog understands that the owner controls everything he/she wants. If the dog wants something it realizes that it must go through the "leader" to get it. This way you are not getting physical and you are motivating your dog to obey you. The forcing the dog on their back and other dominating actions are outdated but their are other less intimidating ways to achieve the leadership role, without damaging the relationship with your dog.

[rottnpagan]

Alpha rolls are a very good way to lose your face.

And I cannot stand Cesar.

[rottnpagan]

None of this works on a pit bull... Everyone says it is the way u raise ur dog. "The owner made them mean" I put my Pit to sleep. He would even attack me. I would never recomend a pit as a pet. No matter how much love and tenderness I showed him, he was still mean.

Wow. That's quite a... breedist remark. There's mean dogs in all breeds, and I'd be willing to bet large sums of money (if I had any!) that it was a breeding/temperament issue.

[dr2little]

[QUOTE=CreatureTeacher]You could probably all have guessed this: I HATE alpha rolls. But I'll explain why, so I don't come off as a wacko. :)

If I had a glass of beer, if I drank beer for that matter.....I'd raise a glass to this post:p HERE HERE!!:D

[Doberluv]

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data//500/cheers.gif


(C.T. is MIA....she's on leave of some sort. I do hope she comes back)

[Carolyn]

Good thread :) Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or sort out my babble I'f I'm half wrong lol, but from what I've read and learned, isn't it the thinking of people doing the scruffs and alpha rolls, that this is how its done in the wild?

I didn't believe this is how it was done in the wild. I was always led to believe, that if an Alpha or leader attempted this in the wild it would be for one reason only, and thats to finish off the recipient.

Sorry If I'm not making sense lol. What I mean is, in the wild they don't need to resort to these things to threaten or bully those under their leadership. If a leader in the wild did this, then as I said it would be to kill is that right?

So saying that they need to be submissive, or dominated, cause thats how they do it in the wild is incorrect. Thats now not how pack structure works in the wild at all.

[Doberluv]

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

That link may have already been put up somewhere. I'm too lazy to go through the pages and see.

[smkie]

I'm totally down on the alpha rolls and scruff shakes. Some people KNOW it doesn't work, yet still do it. I had a client recently who I was helping with some behavioural issues, and I noticed that when giving hand signals her dog would wince and duck. Sometimes he would run away. She admitted that she had alpha rolled him numerous times and said to me "I know it doesn't work, but I just get so pi**d of with him". Needless to say it had started with alpha rolls and progressed into collar twisting, forcing him down, near choking him and PUNCHING him in the nose! Needless to say my people skills weren't up for being polite to her, so I gave her an earful and told her she was lucky if I didn't report her.

when my old boss's dogs went to the line at field trials it was tails up and happy. When they found their bird and RACED back, swung around to heel, delivered their bird to hand it was with tail wagging. Never ever what i saw some others do. Cringe to the line, insecure in the field, and full of dread on return. Literally crawling around to heel. It wasn't hard to figure out who trained and with what manner. THe latter just made me ill.

[Dobiegurl]

Good thread :) Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or sort out my babble I'f I'm half wrong lol, but from what I've read and learned, isn't it the thinking of people doing the scruffs and alpha rolls, that this is how its done in the wild?

I didn't believe this is how it was done in the wild. I was always led to believe, that if an Alpha or leader attempted this in the wild it would be for one reason only, and thats to finish off the recipient.

Sorry If I'm not making sense lol. What I mean is, in the wild they don't need to resort to these things to threaten or bully those under their leadership. If a leader in the wild did this, then as I said it would be to kill is that right?

So saying that they need to be submissive, or dominated, cause thats how they do it in the wild is incorrect. Thats now not how pack structure works in the wild at all.

Once the Alpha of the pack is established NO OTHER dog in the pack will try to challenge him/her. A dog or wolf does not show agression as in biting and attacking other dogs to be dominant. Its more about how they carry themselves and their behavior, head held high, eyes staring, ears up. Dominance is more about confidence rather than agressiveness. Though dominance can turn into agressiveness when dealing with human/dog relationship.

[bubbatd]

I'm surprised I haven't posted here !! OK I did the alpha roll with all my litters from 2 weeks on.. it taught them to trust and to relax . I continued it until they went " home" ....I can see doing it with a dog ( puppy ) who has never experienced it can be a bad experience for both dog and owner. That's why socialization by the breeder is so important. Also, different breeds may be different...... I've never had a Golden who didn't want to go into the roll and get a good belly rub !

[Dobiegurl]

I'm surprised I haven't posted here !! OK I did the alpha roll with all my litters from 2 weeks on.. it taught them to trust and to relax . I continued it until they went " home" ....I can see doing it with a dog ( puppy ) who has never experienced it can be a bad experience for both dog and owner. That's why socialization by the breeder is so important. Also, different breeds may be different...... I've never had a Golden who didn't want to go into the roll and get a good belly rub !


i think its good for a puppy to learn its role, but to do that to a big agressive, dominant dog is asking for trouble. I did roll Chico on his back as a puppy, but now it is not necessary because I established my role to him at a very young age, and once there is a leader the dog automatically knows his place, which is a follower.

[opokki]

I think there is a big difference between the alpha roll though and the handling/restraint exercises often done with puppies. The alpha roll is done in a threatening manner and is often used to intimidate a dog. With my dog, I got her used to being held on her back and restrained but I did this in a nonthreatening, friendly manner.

Bubbatd: Am I correct in thinking that what you are doing to the puppies is more like handling/restraint exercises than alpha rolls?

[Dobiegurl]

If you are restraining your dog in a submissive manner, then you are asserting your role as alpha. Might not be intentionally but the puppy doesn't know the difference between you just holding him in a sudmisive position and you asserting you pack status. They will see it in one way, and that is you asserting your alpha role.

[homelessdog]

What is an alpha roll, and what are you thoughts on it?

I was watching an episode of The Dog Whisperer where Cesar Millan was dealing with a dog aggressive bulldog and at several points he rolled the dog onto his back and held him down by the neck stating that the dog needed to be submissive. This sounded like an alpha roll to me, and I've always heard that such training methods are cruel and outdated. If this is not an alpha roll, can someone explain the difference to me.

Thanks.

It was a year and a half ago that I post this topic, and I see it's been bumped back up, however the original question was never answered. But, I was able to answer it myself when I read Cesar Millan's book, Cesar's Way, and he does in fact advocate the use of the "alpha roll" in extreme situations. :-/

[Roxy's CD]

I've trained horses for 5 years. I'm sure you've all heard of Monty Roberts the horse whisperer. Someone here mentioned that using "dog tactics" the "alpha roll" wouldn't work because we are humans and they are dogs. Well that's exactly how I train my horses. Of course they all know that I'm human, but they understand me when I use THEIR LANGUAGE. Ex) Just because someone is a different nationality doesn't mean that we can't understand them when they speak english?!?!

I would love to see some of the people that believe the alpha roll is unacceptable try to train my dog. LOVE IT! lol. I have rolled my dog yes. No I did not throw her to the floor, or hit her or anything overly aggressive. I got her to lie down rolled her on her stomach and placed my neck over her throat. Why? She is, err, USED to be an extrememly aggressive dog. Biting people, growling snarling anything you could possibly imagine. Why? Because I babied her from the start. Allowed her to think she was in charge of me, allowed her to believe she was an ALPHA. When she wanted something she got it, if she wanted to go for a walk she got, and the behavour that resulted from me allowing this was not acceptable.

It's ridiculous to say that dogs don't look at us as part of their pack! Of course they do! Do we look at them as part of our family yes! That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, that dogs language doesn't work if we try to speak it! STUPID, I am so insulted.

As for the "alpha roll". I think there are ways to bond with your puppy, but if their are serious questions as to your dogs aggressiveness towards you or others, if performed properly (not throwing your dog to the ground and choking it) they get the message across. I did it once to my pup as well as I started formal lessons. She now knows that I love her but if it comes down to it, I AM IN CHARGE.

[Zoom]

The alpha roll is a good way to get yourself bit, quite frankly. The 'puppy alpha rolls' usually aren't done when out of anger or frustration as they usually are in older/adult dogs; that's the main difference. There is nothing wrong with getting a puppy used to being handled in all sorts of positions and showing them that exposing their belly is ok. With all the puppies I play with, I usually will pick them up at some point and cradle them like a baby and pet their bellies. This both calms them down and gets them used to being on their back, which could save their life someday if they are at the e-vets or other high-stress situations.

I spend 40+ hours a week doing nothing but watching dog behavior and I can tell you right now that I have never seen a dog physically put another dog on it's back unless it had blood on it's mind. The dominant dog's body language is quite sufficient for the lower dog to roll over on it's own. I have dogs roll over for me when I approach them (when I walk into a room, I am in charge and they know it. It's all about body language and setting rules) and I've never forced these dogs on their backs once. It's a good way to start a fight, because in a group setting, one submissive dog can/does set off a chain reaction and seems to inflame any sort of dominant behavior.

I will admit that when I was apprenticing under a trainer who advocated using alpha rolls, I did use them on my own dog occassionally. I very quickly found out how much damage that was doing to our relationship and usually only served to make him surly and more likely to snap at other dogs, which was usually the reason why he was getting rolled in the first place. So I stopped doing those, he enjoys his belly rubs again and things are all around much better.

[pup-man]

There is this beautifull nurse that works in our local Emergency Room ..... I like using the Alpha Roll when I wanted to visit her..... :)

[Roxy's CD]

I have never seen a dog physically put another dog on it's back unless it had blood on it's mind. The dominant dog's body language is quite sufficient for the lower dog to roll over on it's own. I have dogs roll over for me when I approach them (when I walk into a room, I am in charge and they know it.

My girl has physically overpowered my pup and put him on his back and held her head against his. She is establishing dominance. SHe has never made him bleed, EVER. But when he's nipping at her face and ears it annoys her, if she tells him to stop, sharp bark or growl and she doesn't she puts him in his place.

As for dogs rolling over when you walk in a room, yes I agree. Body language is a huge factor in establishing dominance but some are more stubborn or strong willed than others..*cough ROXY* So as I stated before, and someone else mentioned, the alpha roll should be reserved for extreme situations when people are endangered by a dogs strong willed behaviour.

[IliamnasQuest]

I've trained seriously for some 17 years now, have German shepherds and chow chows (both of whom can have quite strong personalities). I've dealt with extremely aggressive dogs and extremely submissive dogs. I was originally taught to use the alpha roll to "correct" dominant behavior. And I've seen the bad things that the alpha roll can cause. It's not something that should be used as a corrective method.

There's a huge difference between doing the rolling over exercises that you might do with a puppy (which should be done in such a manner that the puppy willing rolls onto its back to expose the tummy) and what most people consider the "alpha roll" which is a take-down of your dog in a physical way. The puppy roll-overs are to encourage the pup to understand that the human is a kind leader who will do good things when you offer submissive behaviors. The alpha roll is to prove extreme dominance to the dog in a forceful, often frightening way (to the dog). There's no compliance on the part of the dog, other than eventually giving up the fight. Most dogs WILL give up the fight. Those who don't end up injuring their owners.

I watch Trick (10 yr old GSD) and Khana (17 mo. chow) play and Trick is pushing Khana down into a "submissive" position frequently. But Khana willingly rolls into that position, and leaps up once Trick steps back. It's not submission - it's that she's learned that dropping down like that will encourage Trick to play with her more and that leaping up will get Trick "re-engaged" in the play session. Khana doesn't have a naturally submissive nature - she's quite a pushy little bitch (literally .. *L*). But if I put my hand on her side and press softly, she willingly rolls onto her side/back and gives me access to her stomach. I've taught her this, and I didn't have to use "alpha rolls" to do it.

People who use the alpha roll are still in the antiquated style of dog training - and they have a long ways to go to catch up to those who truly understand dog behavior. Force does not equal training. Force does not build a great relationship (regardless of how good you think your relationship is, it would be BETTER without force). I've been there, in that mindset that says that my dog should mind me because I'm the ALPHA, d*mn it, and that's that! I used the corrective collars and the alpha rolls and teaching my dog that no aggressive signals were allowed. I've seen dogs burst out in sudden rage because for years they were taught not to show aggression but were NEVER taught how to handle their feelings of aggression. Alpha rolls teach a dog to submit but they don't teach a dog how to understand what's wanted.

We can do right by our dogs or we can make them look at us as something to be feared. It's our choice.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Doberluv]

To be a good leader to your dog, physical force of any kind is counter productive. "Alphas" don't use physical force. They use psychological manipultation. They control resources. If you've done any research on wolf or dog behavior, you'd know that alpha rolls are completely irrelevant because they are not done to one animal by another. Messing with stuff like that, thinking you're resembling a wolf or dog is nonsense, dangerous and makes no sense to a dog, makes you a confusing and out of control NON leader.

[whatszmatter]

I'm going to put this disclaimer up so I don't get accused of using alpha rolls and hanging dogs, I've never done either . I think rolls are a good way to get bit and aren't all that necessary. Now on to my point.

I keep reading that alpha dogs/wolves whatever don't use physical force to "rule" so to speak. And I agree they don't use it all that much. BUt that doesn't mean they never use it. We see dogs submit to people or other dogs willingly and often, and the other dog takes a dominant position over them. But what would happen if the other dog didn't submit willingly? are you saying that the other dog wouldn't use force ever?

How about with wolves, if one doesn't submit, or is pushing for dominance are you saying that the alpha won't use force to maintain his position? One's that push are either put in their place by force, killed by the pack, or run off.

Saying alpha rolls are a bad idea is one thing, saying dogs or wolves never use force as the reason, isn't exactly true.

[casablanca1]

Basically, I think the problem isn't with using force with dogs, it's with giving force neat names and thereby relinquishing our responsibility for deciding when it's is appropriate. Some dogs need pushing back, some dogs will bite you if you push back, and some just don't notice if you push back. I think too many people want the cult experience - a training method that removes all responsibility for thinking, and gives you all your tools and methods - whether it be Cesar Milan, NILIF, clicker, positive, etc. I'm sure it works out if your dog, yourself and your chosen method are on the same page (though from what I've seen of dogs and training classes, I'm skeptical how often that happens) but it seems empty to me.

[Zoom]

My girl has physically overpowered my pup and put him on his back and held her head against his. She is establishing dominance. SHe has never made him bleed, EVER. But when he's nipping at her face and ears it annoys her, if she tells him to stop, sharp bark or growl and she doesn't she puts him in his place.



That's a puppy though and a member of her family. Dogs are (for the most part) more tolerant of puppies in general. It's a different situation with adults and non-family members.

[whatszmatter]

That's a puppy though and a member of her family. Dogs are (for the most part) more tolerant of puppies in general. It's a different situation with adults and non-family members.
puppies seem to get a free pass so to speak till about 4-6 months of age maybe longer depending on the breed and after that, their pass to annoy the crap out of older dogs gets revoked.

[oc_spirit]

Personally I do not like the Alpha Roll at all and do not advocate it. If you try to Alpha Roll a truly dominate dog and FAIL you are in big trouble!!! The dogs I''m hoping to get into are big animals (weighing in at 150-200Lbs), I''m not very big myself so forcing them to do something is pretty much out of the question. The methods I use are being Alpha through the mind. If you observe packs the real Alpha rarely gets into skirmishes or fights because he doesn''t have to. It''s the lower ranking dogs who aren''t sure of their position that are battling it out. Training, controling food, making the dog get out of your way (as opposed to moving for him or stepping around him) are all ways to subtly remind the dog of who Alpha is and these should be done right from puppyhood. The dog should want to accept your position, not fear you. The relationship will be so much stronger then!

[Gempress]

My husband tried the alpha roll once when we started having dominance issues with our rott/husky mix. He got bitten. 'Nuff said.