New docking laws

[Gallien Jacks]

http://www.cdb.org/defra/index.htm, I am a member of here and in my local dog paper today the results were printed, basically as far as I understand, dogs that are for working can be docked the vet has to decide on this, dogs docked for working can not be shown, the KC is confused about it all, basically legally docked dogs can not be shown

[JennSLK]

OMG that is so stupid!!!!!!



Poor dobes. They look pathetic with tails

[Dobiegurl]

Ok, let me find all my vet bills, and food and training receipts. Because the day someone pays for my dogs necessities and spends time with him is the day they can tell me what I can and cannot do with my dog.

[Gallien Jacks]

I will let you know when I know more, so far they are a bit vague with the details, hopefully this can still be changed, I am getting a Boxer to show in a year or so, and if things carry on as they are I either chose to work with her, then she can be docked or I show her and have to put up with a tail, I already know what a Boxer is like with a tail and its not good! What I don't get is how a vet can pass a judgment at 3 days old whether that dog is going to work or whether the owner is just saying that ti get their pups docked, talk about encouraging BYB

[Dobiegurl]

I will let you know when I know more, so far they are a bit vague with the details, hopefully this can still be changed, I am getting a Boxer to show in a year or so, and if things carry on as they are I either chose to work with her, then she can be docked or I show her and have to put up with a tail, I already know what a Boxer is like with a tail and its not good! What I don't get is how a vet can pass a judgment at 3 days old whether that dog is going to work or whether the owner is just saying that ti get their pups docked, talk about encouraging BYB

I don't think thats how there going to do it. I think that they are going to wait until the puppy grows a little to determine if its show or work quality. Then they will amputate the tail after weeks or even months of being alive. Thats what I'm thinking, so instead of cutting it off when the pups don't even feel it ,they are going to go through a surgical procedure (that is complicated, trust me I know) after the pups are grown. Oh yeah, thats way more effective. People are so ingnorant and need to go and fight a different cause like abused animals.

[Gallien Jacks]

The piece in the paper, says the new law will be that working, police dogs etc will be allowed to be docked before the age of 5 days

[Dobiegurl]

The piece in the paper, says the new law will be that working, police dogs etc will be allowed to be docked before the age of 5 days

Oh, well I didn't read the whole thing, I can't stand the stop the docking and cropping crap, boring. Well thats still stupid because how can you determine who's working quality at that age. STUPID!!!

[brock23]

I don't understand. There are many many breeds that have docked tails regardless of whether they are for work or show. 2005 Westminster Best in Show was Carlee a GSP her tail was docked as most bird type dogs are.

[Gallien Jacks]

Yep exectly in my paper, there is a quote from a vet and he says the same how is he suposed to tell, and how does he enfourse this? What if a law was brought in that all dogs docked had to work then one of these dogs for some reason couldnt work what furure does that hold for them? i must admit that if I didnt own any of the docked breeds then this wouldnt bother me but I do not want another boxer with a tail!

[Gallien Jacks]

I don't understand. There are many many breeds that have docked tails regardless of whether they are for work or show. 2005 Westminster Best in Show was Carlee a GSP her tail was docked as most bird type dogs are.
Even the Kennel club doesn't get it, a lot Of CDB members are writing letters now I am doing mine tomorrow hopefully we can turn this around, this is why I feel that if you own a docked breed then you should become a member of a docking council or similar

[brock23]

My dog might be the only one from his litter that doesn't currently hunt. I agree how are you supposed to know which dog is and which dog isn't going to work.

Right now in the GSP world the big debate is whether to allow the color black into the breed standard, right now the only color combinations allowed are liver and white.

[jess2416]

My dog might be the only one from his litter that doesn't currently hunt. I agree how are you supposed to know which dog is and which dog isn't going to work.

Right now in the GSP world the big debate is whether to allow the color black into the breed standard, right now the only color combinations allowed are liver and white.

I've never seen a black GSP :)

[~Tucker&Me~]

Posted by JennSLK:
Poor dobes. They look pathetic with tails

Posted by Gallien Jacks:
i must admit that if I didnt own any of the docked breeds then this wouldnt bother me but I do not want another boxer with a tail!

No offence, but you guys (IMHO) sound really stuck up.
Can you not ignore the physical features and love the dog the way they are?

~Tucker

[JennSLK]

OMG Tucker! Do you really think that we dont love the dog because it has a tail? We SHOW, meaning its about looks. Yes thats superficial, but I still love my dogs no matter what.

Emma is a ugly dog as far a breed standard goes, but I still loe her to death.

I happen to think that a dobe with a tail looks stupid, just like I think poodles with their hari show cut look pathetic. My PERSONAL opinion. Does not meen I love them anyless.

If you preferd spesific color, lets say black. Would that mean you would love a brown dog less? no, you just preffer a black,

[~Tucker&Me~]

I know what SHOW means, thank you very much.
I knew I would get 'bashed' when I replied to this thread *sighs*
Again, I just thought the way that you both worded your posts sounded really stuck up.
Whatever, as I stated before this was my personal opinion.
I am not a fan of cropping or docking unless the dog needs it done for work.

~Tucker

[tessa_s212]

I know what SHOW means, thank you very much.
I knew I would get 'bashed' when I replied to this thread *sighs*
Again, I just thought the way that you both worded your posts sounded really stuck up.
Whatever, as I stated before this was my personal opinion.
I am not a fan of cropping or docking unless the dog needs it done for work.

~Tucker

You were "bashed" because you first bashed another member. Please understand that.

[Dobiegurl]

No offence, but you guys (IMHO) sound really stuck up.
Can you not ignore the physical features and love the dog the way they are?

I still love my dog but I like my Doberman to look like a Doberman. I docked my dog's tail when he was 12 weeks old for cosmetic reasons. If I didn't dock his tail I would still love him, but I will still dock and crop all my future dobermans. It is totally superficial but oh well. I get so sick and tired of people judging me for cosmetic issues concerning my dog. You can have your opinions of those issues but I am totally for docking and cropping for cosmetic reasons and you cannot judge me for that, it doesn't make me a bad person. If you knew you would get "bashed" why did you even comment. Sounds to me like you were trying to stir up something.

[tessa_s212]

Boy am I glad I live in a country that allows me to humanely choose what I want to do with my dog's tails. After finally owning a dog with a tail, if I ever choose to get a breed from a breeder, it *will* be a breed with a docked tail. :p Though, I'll probably end up just getting random lovable mutts..so it won't matter what their tails look like.

How sad..first Canada is an idiot and bans pitbulls, and now this.. sad.

[JennSLK]

Tessa - Im canadian. No Im not offended. I agree, but at least BSL is just Ontario (for now)

Yes Tucker, I said what I said because you "bashed" me first by impying that I dont love my dog

[~Tucker&Me~]

Dobiegurl,
I wanted to express my opinion. I see I have 'riled' everyone up, I didn't want to cause a big fight, just let everyone know my opinion.
Tessa,
You are right :D
I 'ish bad person... LOL
I was thinking more along the lines that I would get bashed up for not agreeing with docking and cropping...

~Tucker

[~Tucker&Me~]

I still love my dog but I like my Doberman to look like a Doberman.

A doberman is a doberman is a doberman is a doberman.

Tail or not.

JennSLK:
Sorry, we posted at the same time.
Again, this is MHO.
I just don't like it that people call them pathetic or ugly the way they are born. To me it's like saying that girls look ugly withought makeup.

~Tucker

[brock23]

I've never seen a black GSP :)

Well then here you go. A black German Shorthair

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/donky23/240.jpg

[tessa_s212]

Well then here you go. A black German Shorthair

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/donky23/240.jpg

So is this black GSP becoming really popular within the field community? I honestly have never heard of a black either. Are there black partis as well?

Very pretty!.. :D

[brock23]

It has become the field community who has started to widely accept this color. (which actually has been in Europe for awhile) vs the show people who want only liver and white variations.

[Dobiegurl]

I still love my dog but I like my Doberman to look like a Doberman.

A doberman is a doberman is a doberman is a doberman.

Tail or not.

Not my Dobies. All my future Dobies will have their ears cropped and tails docked and nothing is going to change my mind about that. I really hate when people judge me and try to change my opinion. It's not going to work so this discussion is going no where.

[brock23]

I do not know how the standard reads for other breeds, but GSP's must have their tails docked to a length were they are able to sit on their tails.

[jess2416]

It has become the field community who has started to widely accept this color. (which actually has been in Europe for awhile) vs the show people who want only liver and white variations.

I seen that it was in German working lines :D I like it (the black GSP) :D But I have always like GSP's

[rottnpagan]

Boy am I glad I live in a country that allows me to humanely choose what I want to do with my dog's tails. After finally owning a dog with a tail, if I ever choose to get a breed from a breeder, it *will* be a breed with a docked tail. :p Though, I'll probably end up just getting random lovable mutts..so it won't matter what their tails look like.

How sad..first Canada is an idiot and bans pitbulls, and now this.. sad.

Hate to break it to you, but... there's many a movement in the US now to ban docking too. o.0 Might want to keep an eye out on that!

Right now, the American Rottweiler Club is having a battle on their hands because some want to re-write the breed standard to DQ any dog with a tail. If people continue to import European dogs, in particular German dogs, they're going to come with a tail. Then those dogs wouldn't be eligible to be shown in ARC/AKC events, which is really unfair, IMO.

Personally, I love my breed, tail or no tail. A rottweiler is still a rottweiler, in its heart and spirit. Not in a stub, or a kneebashing tail. ;)

I'd love to own a tailed rott. XD

[~Tucker&Me~]

Dobiegirl:
I am not trying to change your mind. I am just telling you my opinion.
It's a shame you wont even consider my views.

~Tucker

[JennSLK]

Personaly I think that you should be able to show a rottie with OUT a docked tail, only if it came from Europe or a place that does not allow docking.

Eg: UK you can show a croped Dobe ONLY if it came from the US or Can.

It should be the same in the states.

[Gallien Jacks]

Tucker, I own jacks and a boxer both usually docked breeds, I chose not to have my puppy's (Jacks) docked, and when we brought Pearl she was to be a pet only so the tail didn't matter or so we thought! Have you ever seen how a boisterous dog like a boxer is with a tail? I am sure in the not to distant future she will end up having to have her tail docked due to injury (this I know will cost a small fourtun), she will I am sure one day break it! She bangs it hard when excited, so hard sometimes that she cries out with pain! Now the Jacks don't have this problem unless they were to go out to work then damage is usually sustained (from wire excetra). I do not love Pearl any less for having a tail (even though it hurts like hell when you get whipped and I have lost count of everything she has broken with it). But my next Boxer is for showing, Judges are very biased and in all Boxer history there has only ever been one Champion with a tail, judges just don't like them and will pick a docked one over a UN docked one, so with that in mind and the fact that they can and do do serious damage to their tails when they are left UN docked no I do not want another undocked boxer! Now if this ban continues then its something I will have to consider, now if by that you think I don't love my dogs or I am stuck up then thats your choice!

[Dizzy]

Sorry - I'm happy about the proposed ban :D

JMO.

I like my dog how she is, whether her tail whips me and knocks glasses off the table or not.

All cosmetics in my opinon. Most people don't work their dogs. (yes of course some do before you on).

Once it is banned, give it a couple of years and you won't even remember how they used to look.

Cropping dogs is banned here, and noone complains about it. Most people dislike it. And I am sure there would have been the same uproar then as there is now.

Time change, feelings change, and people will move on. And in the long run the dogs will be wagging their beautiful tails proudly :D

[Kase]

I don't mind it at all, if it's banned I will be fine. I prefer dogs to have tails ( I do understand that some working dogs have docked tails for safety) and would never want to own a dog with a docked tail. Much later on in my life when I have more experience I would love to get a doberman, it's tail will deffinately not be docked. Overall I read my dog a lot through her tail and can't imagine her without it. I prefer tails that aren't docked and look natural.

[Gallien Jacks]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I like them docked for the safety reasons, and discussing it is great, as long as it can be done in an adult manner

[tessa_s212]

You know.. I *don't* work my dogs. My dogs are pets that I compete with in agility and obedience. BUT, a cocker just isn't a 'cocker' with a tail. I have seen show quality cockers from countries with docking banned, and they have some UGLY tails. Call me what you want, but I do prefer the *look* of a cocker with a docked tail. If that makes me horrible, well, go ahead and lable me as horrible. :D

[taratippy]

Sorry - I'm happy about the proposed ban :D

JMO.

I like my dog how she is, whether her tail whips me and knocks glasses off the table or not.

All cosmetics in my opinon. Most people don't work their dogs. (yes of course some do before you on).

Once it is banned, give it a couple of years and you won't even remember how they used to look.

Cropping dogs is banned here, and noone complains about it. Most people dislike it. And I am sure there would have been the same uproar then as there is now.

Time change, feelings change, and people will move on. And in the long run the dogs will be wagging their beautiful tails proudly :D

Think you've put it perfectly Dizzy. I will be really glad when the ban comes in.

Yes Ive seen dogs with damaged tails and not in normally docked breeds so as any breed can damage its tail should they all be docked as a matter of course?

Gallian the point about showing is confusing me, how can judges be biased when the ban comes in, surely as fewer and fewer docked dogs are shown they will not be able to be bias unless of course they wont pick a winner!

IMO the statement that an undocked dobie is pathetic is bound to be offensive to those who actually own an undocked dobie. One question though is 12 weeks normal for getting tails dock, its much much earlier in the UK?

Im also glad that I live in a country that does consider this a welfare issue.

[rottnpagan]

One question though is 12 weeks normal for getting tails dock, its much much earlier in the UK?


No it's not. Most dogs are docked within the first 5 days.

[brock23]

Now I would not even to try to speak for all breeds, but in GSP's as long as the tails are docked within the first 3 days after a dog's birth their pain sensors haven't fully developed in that area yet. Uncomfortable probably, but not un-humanely painful for the pup.

[JennSLK]

Jazz's litter was done at 2 days.

Sometimes they tail band as well.

[Dobiegurl]

I don't mind it at all, if it's banned I will be fine. I prefer dogs to have tails ( I do understand that some working dogs have docked tails for safety) and would never want to own a dog with a docked tail. Much later on in my life when I have more experience I would love to get a doberman, it's tail will deffinately not be docked. Overall I read my dog a lot through her tail and can't imagine her without it. I prefer tails that aren't docked and look natural.

And I think I should have the right to own a dog without a tail. Its a matter of preference and prefer my dogs without tails.

[joce]

I consider all my dogs working dogs. I wouldn't ahve them if they didn't fill some role and they are sure not pampered and carried around in purses so I want to know how anyone is going to tell me my dog should have a tail amputated at a late age because some idiot who knows nothing about docking decided it hurts a pup at three days old:rolleyes: So an amputation is better than a couple minutes of squirming around?!

A breeder will not know at three days what dog will or will not be a working dog so how are they supposed to decide who gets docked. How stupid.

[JennSLK]

A breeder will not know at three days what dog will or will not be a working dog so how are they supposed to decide who gets docked. How stupid

Yup. Not to mention what about dual dogs? Jazz is going to be a show dog, but I want to train her in Sutzhund, posibly.

What about those Aussies (they are born with tails I think) who are sow dogs, but also are doing working titles?

what about that? So some law is going to take away my personal choice to have both a working and show dog?

[Gallien Jacks]

What i meant about the showing is at the moment a docked dog will be picked over a undocked dog, obviously judges will have to re think when the ban commences, but there will be the pups with tails and the older docked dogs, so for some time there will still be a mixture in the ring, which isn't fair for new comers with a pup that would be frowned upon my a old fashioned judge. And in the shows where countries are mixed so will docked and un docked be mixed which means their will be prejudice

[Dizzy]

because some idiot who knows nothing about docking decided it hurts a pup at three days old:rolleyes:

Tehy haven't just pulled some "idiot" in off the street. It's pretty naive to think they are considering banning it just off the say so of one "idiot".

[joce]

The bans always come up ehre because some (and I will call them idiot) perosn hears a story about scissors or something and then this all gets something started up. So yes,it is due to some idiots.

[JennSLK]

I just want to know what they are plannin on doing if the dog is a show AND a working dog.

Every dog looks like a little rat at 5 days old. how can they say who is show or working quality. Its hard enough to tell at 8 weeks.

[Boxerowner]

Once it is banned, give it a couple of years and you won't even remember how they used to look.

Do you really want to forget what they once were/looked like sorry but that is just a silly statement I will never forget what the breed I love ever looked like without a tail or any other part of its body.

Sorry but I have both undocked and docked breeds and I really think it is stupid to banned docking its a personal preference if you dont want to dock then dont but dont take it away from people that happen to work and show or just want a pet with a docked tail.

[Dizzy]

I am not the one banning it. I am the one who will not be opposing it.

Do you really want to forget what they once were/looked like sorry but that is just a silly statement I will never forget what the breed I love ever looked like without a tail or any other part of its body.

That is not a silly statement. Like I have said once before, cropping has been banned here, and to see a dog with cropped ears looks very unusual. People are now accustomed to seeing natural ears and on the whole PREFER the look, and usually are horrified with how cropped ears are produced (I remember discovering as a child and thought it was awful!). Bear in mind, there will have been the same feeling amongst people who owned cropped breeds when that ban came in too. In time, it will be the same for tails. As it is in other european countries.

I am not telling YOU what to do. I am telling you what I prefer.

[Selkhet]

I own a docked breed, and even though I decided not to crop his ears, I still would have docked the tail. I don't approve of the cropping process (IMO), but have to agree that the end result looks nice.

I worked for a vet and saw firsthand the effects of docking and cropping. The place I worked for used a special tool kinda like a cigar cutter to dock tails. The pups may have let out a little squeal, but nothing more than if they are given a shot. It only takes 1 or 2 stitches to close the wound, and it's healed in a couple of days.

The cropping process is much more invasive. It brought tears to my eyes to see the pups when they woke up from surgery. They didn't know what happened or where they were, they just knew their mommy was gone and their ears hurt. All they did was cry and cry. :(

Most of them hurt so much (even on pain meds) that they would just lay there and look at you with those eyes. After the first day they were better, but they still needed pain medication. And there is also a long process of taping and retaping the sore ears because they don't usually stay up when the pup scratches and shakes his head.

It was my personal experience that led me to the decision not to crop, but I don't look down upon anyone who does it. The dogs do get over it, just like women forget the pain of labor. What I don't agree with is people docking and cropping for senseless reasons. (breed standard is the only acception IMO) I've seen mutts - usually rott or pitt or dobe mixes - with docked tails and cropped ears just because they have that breed in their blood. I think that's wrong, and no selfrespecting vet would condone that.

EDIT: If a tail is being damaged or causing pain, that's another reason I agree with docking, though at that point it would be an amputation.

[Gallien Jacks]

I just want to know what they are plannin on doing if the dog is a show AND a working dog.

Every dog looks like a little rat at 5 days old. how can they say who is show or working quality. Its hard enough to tell at 8 weeks.
They cant do both, a show dog is usually different to a working dog looks wise, and thats where i feel the laws will be causing troubble, as most working boxer breeders dont health test or follow the standered, so if docked boxers are more popular then the working breeders will be producing more of them even if its just for pets and the boxer we know and love will change over time

[Gallien Jacks]

Animal Welfare Bill, As Amended
New Clauses

Docking of dogs’ tails

(1) A person commits an offence if —

(a) he removes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment;

(b) he causes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail to be removed by another person, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment.

(2) A person commits an offence if —

(a) he is responsible for a dog,

(b) another person removes the whole or any part of the dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment, and he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if the dog is a certified working dog that is not more than 5 days old.

(4) For the purposes of subsection (3), a dog is a certified working dog if a veterinary surgeon has certified that the dog is likely to be used for work in connection with-

(a) law enforcement,

(b) activities of Her Majesty’s armed forces,

(c) emergency rescue,

(d) lawful pest control, or

(e) the lawful shooting of animals.

(5) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (1) or (2) to show that he reasonably believed that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (3) applies.

(6) A person commits an offence if—

(a) he owns a subsection (3) dog, and

(b) fails to take reasonable steps to secure that, before the dog is 3 months old, it is identified as a subsection (3) dog in accordance with regulations made under this section.

(7) A person commits an offence if—

(a) he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee,

(b) the dog’s tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and

(c) removal took place on or after the commencement day.

(8) Where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability, subsection (7) does not apply if the dog is a subsection (3) dog.

(9) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (7) to show that he reasonably believed—

(a) that the event was not one to which members of the public were admitted on payment of an entrance fee,

(b) that the removal took place before the commencement day, or

(c) that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (8) applies.


(10) A person commits an offence if he knowingly gives false information to a veterinary surgeon in connection with the giving of a certificate for the purposes of this section.

(11) The appropriate authority may by regulations—

(a) make provision about the giving by veterinary surgeons of certificates for the purposes of this section;

(b) make provision about the identification of dogs as subsection (3) dogs;

(c) make provision about the functions of inspectors in relation to certificates for the purposes of this section and the identification of dogs as subsection (3) dogs.

(12) Power to make regulations under subsection (11) includes power to make incidental, supplementary, consequential provision or transitional provision or savings.

(13) Before making regulations under subsection (11), the appropriate national authority shall consult such persons appearing to the authority to represent any interests concerned as the authority considers appropriate.

(14) In this section— “commencement day” means the day on which this section comes into force; “subsection (3) dog” means a dog whose tail has, on or after the commencement day, been wholly or partly removed without contravening subsection (1), because of the application of subsection (3).’.

[JennSLK]

Bull S**T

[Gallien Jacks]

Yep I had to read and re-read some it seems they are designed to confuse

[Selkhet]

Bull S**T

lol, well said.

[joce]

So can you jsut say you hunt and get the dogs docked? Or do you have to rbing in a dead deer with you or something:p

[Gallien Jacks]

I really hope we can sort this, its turning the thought of showing not as enjoyable as i hoped, I will be getting my girl in a year or two, but the taught that she will not do well because she will have a tail is making me think twice

[amymarley]

I don't give a cr*p about showing... that is for people, not animals....

As for the dobie person above, yes, you can do what you want.... thank goodness you live in a country as great as ours, too bad the laws were not more strict.

You (dobie) did not put one reference concerning your dogs well-being or choice, just yours as cosmetic reasons, to make you feel better about you and your dog.

I don't expect to get a good response from you, since you alaready stated that you are going to mutilate your dog for your own personal enjoyment... and I am not going to go back and fourth with you on it either.

You stated a stupid fact..."I want dobies to look like dobies.." well, then take them as they are born, not manufactured by people to make money or show quallity. That is just stupid talk.

K, I am all for all HUMAN babies to turn out to look like Michael Jackson..... why not? He is a legend in his own time, makes millions, lets change all of our children to look like him! Then parade him/her around a ring for people to judge....Why not? Lets cut and probe and make them an "image" of our own....(Pleeeeze)

I do have a question for more INFORMED people out there, esp. boxer people... there has been so much debate on boxers tails, that I would love to hear more about (regarding being a medical ness., not a cosmetic, selfish thing).

Bottom line, if anyone could have a one on one talk with their dog, and spoke truly to each other, do you really think your dog is going to say, YEA, deform me, cut me open and have pain for no other reason to make YOU happy. Sadley, most dogs would say yes, only to make their MASTERS happy, because unlike most humans, your dog is all he/she has, and of course going to do anything to make you happy.

[brock23]

Speaking only as a GSP owner, all I can say is that for this breed it really is for medical purposes since most GSP's are hunters. My particular dog does not, but there is no way to know I wouldn't hunt him at 3 days old. So for this breed has a whole I believe it to be in their best interest to protect the dog.

[amymarley]

brock, I don't know about other breeds.... that may be well and true. I simply don't know....(so, no I am not bashing you).

My question was about boxers, and I know we have several "experts" on boxers here....

As for the post I posted above, that was telling someone that he/she is selfish for just doing "cosmetic" things on her dog. That is bad...in my opinion... she was defensive before anyone even "attacked" her, therefore, my thought, she knows in her heart that she is being selfish and unwilling to spare pain for her dogs..... It makes me sad.

[Dobiegurl]

I don't give a cr*p about showing... that is for people, not animals....

As for the dobie person above, yes, you can do what you want.... thank goodness you live in a country as great as ours, too bad the laws were not more strict.

You (dobie) did not put one reference concerning your dogs well-being or choice, just yours as cosmetic reasons, to make you feel better about you and your dog.

I don't expect to get a good response from you, since you alaready stated that you are going to mutilate your dog for your own personal enjoyment... and I am not going to go back and fourth with you on it either.

You stated a stupid fact..."I want dobies to look like dobies.." well, then take them as they are born, not manufactured by people to make money or show quallity. That is just stupid talk.

K, I am all for all HUMAN babies to turn out to look like Michael Jackson..... why not? He is a legend in his own time, makes millions, lets change all of our children to look like him! Then parade him/her around a ring for people to judge....Why not? Lets cut and probe and make them an "image" of our own....(Pleeeeze)

I do have a question for more INFORMED people out there, esp. boxer people... there has been so much debate on boxers tails, that I would love to hear more about (regarding being a medical ness., not a cosmetic, selfish thing).

Bottom line, if anyone could have a one on one talk with their dog, and spoke truly to each other, do you really think your dog is going to say, YEA, deform me, cut me open and have pain for no other reason to make YOU happy. Sadley, most dogs would say yes, only to make their MASTERS happy, because unlike most humans, your dog is all he/she has, and of course going to do anything to make you happy.


Do all your Boxers or whatever dogs you own have their tail? Mind you, I am not asking if they are working dogs or not because docking is docking whichever way you want to put it. And I did crop and dock my dog for cosmetic reasons but from being so "selfish" I rescued him from being killed or better yet I think he was getting ready to go to a lab because the lady (known for doing evil cruel things to dogs) was offered $100 from these "evil" people. Unfortunately since I am so selfish my dog is with me in a loving home instead of being wired up like a freaking christmas tree. You can judge me all you want, I could care less. But before you judge someone you should know the person and the facts. But in life theres only one judge, the rest are haters.

[Dobiegurl]

brock, I don't know about other breeds.... that may be well and true. I simply don't know....(so, no I am not bashing you).

My question was about boxers, and I know we have several "experts" on boxers here....

As for the post I posted above, that was telling someone that he/she is selfish for just doing "cosmetic" things on her dog. That is bad...in my opinion... she was defensive before anyone even "attacked" her, therefore, my thought, she knows in her heart that she is being selfish and unwilling to spare pain for her dogs..... It makes me sad.

Unwilling to spare my dog pain? If you read my previos post, I think I did spare my dog ALOT of pain because rather than having wires stuck up his a** he's with me in a loving home but then again I'm SO selfish.

I was defensive because this isn't the first post about my docking and cropping choice that someone tried to judge me. I was just trying to let it be known that it was my choice. You can judge me if you want, I could care less.

[amymarley]

I will appease you for one post!

First off...you never mentioned a "lab" in your posts, second, even "IF" you saved your dog from a lab, that does not mean that you have to crop/dock him/her.

Your posts above said EXACT. what you wanted to say.... You were not "rescuing dogs" to save them. YOU HAD THEM AND WERE DOING COSMETIC things done. Shame on you and your vet...because, as you stated above, YOU saved them, therefore, they were not even SHOW quality...just dobs....(and I did grow up with a doberman,,,,,i love them), you stated that you were doing it for you and costmetic reasons...that is gross to me. Again you do what you will, mutilate your dogs....it's your right....

I also think you are either lying about the "lab" or someone was telling you wrong and lied to you. Regardless, that does not mean you have to "alter" your dogs for your own well being. There is no excuse you can use, after you stated soooo much above.... Again, if you could have a one on one conversation with your dog (who you love sooooo much), do you really think, he/ she would want it...NOOOOOOOOO! But go ahead and dismantle your dogs... they will still love you anyways.

[bubbatd]

Whew !!! I'm glad I've owned Goldens !! Yes, over 50 yrs. ago we got a Boxer pup and his tail was docked... we did his ears... today I never would. He was a house pet.... his ears were done for our egos... not for him ! I'm glad I don't show today. Even cutting off the hair tips from a beautiful Golden's tail would hurt me !! I've never, ever, had a dog with an injured tail. ( sorry, except for one caught in a car dog ! healed fine !) Ears and tails are done to confirm to the show ring.... why it was started baffles me. But then, being into horses I say many horrific things done to horses to impress the judges too. I like natural .....human included..... medical issues aside.

[Dobiegurl]

I will appease you for one post!

First off...you never mentioned a "lab" in your posts, second, even "IF" you saved your dog from a lab, that does not mean that you have to crop/dock him/her.

Your posts above said EXACT. what you wanted to say.... You were not "rescuing dogs" to save them. YOU HAD THEM AND WERE DOING COSMETIC things done. Shame on you and your vet...because, as you stated above, YOU saved them, therefore, they were not even SHOW quality...just dobs....(and I did grow up with a doberman,,,,,i love them), you stated that you were doing it for you and costmetic reasons...that is gross to me. Again you do what you will, mutilate your dogs....it's your right....

I also think you are either lying about the "lab" or someone was telling you wrong and lied to you. Regardless, that does not mean you have to "alter" your dogs for your own well being. There is no excuse you can use, after you stated soooo much above.... Again, if you could have a one on one conversation with your dog (who you love sooooo much), do you really think, he/ she would want it...NOOOOOOOOO! But go ahead and dismantle your dogs... they will still love you anyways.

First of all, I never mentioned the lab because it was not necessary information for any other threads I have replied to and I don't have to prove it to you, believe what you want. Second of all I don't care if a dog is show or work quality, I should be able to crop and dock my dog just like the "show people" and the "working people" but they don't get crap about it. I did what I did and I will crop and dock (if not already done) all my dobies I get in the future. But because I am set in my "selfish" ways I will rescue more Dobies and save them from being euthonized. There are people out there burning their dogs alive, burying them alive, pouring acid all over them, beating them and showing not an ounce of love towards their dogs and your wasting your time on this. Go save the rainforest or join the peace corps and leave people like me alone. Go fight important causes. I'm sure there are people out there who cut their own dogs ears with no anesthesia with rusty scissors. Can you imagine what those people do to their fighting pitts? I can!! oh, one thing is tieing duct tape around a bait dog and let the puppies knaw on him, but of course cropping and docking is the real issue to fight. There is so much abuse in this world, open your eyes and you will see cropping and docking should not be a prority you should be more concerned about actual abuse. Go fight them!!!

[JennSLK]

I will dock and crop ALL dobies I have in the future. They are SHOW dogs therefor they should be croped and docked. Not to metion I want to do shutzhund with them so they will aslso be working dogs

[jess2416]

I like natural ears but I do like the docked tail look of some breeds.

[bubbatd]

Jenn... with showing dogs you have no other way but go with what the judges are looking for. Maybe some day the pick of the breed will be " natural " and people will breath a sigh of relief .

[makenzie71]

.... why it was started baffles me.

It serves purpose. A lot of dogs in Celtic areas had their tails docked because of worm-like parasites that often infested them. Folks at the time blamed these parasites for rabies, mange, lameness (likely hip displasia), etc and did this as a preventative measure with some animals. A lot of dogs were used for working by either hauling cars, hunting or other forms of labor and the cropping was done to prevent their tails and ears from being entagled in ropes and equipment...much like they tended to do with field horses and oxen and such. Hunters much prefered "fluffier" dogs to have their ears and tails docked to keep them out of harm's way (the big floppy ears don't tend to fair well in briars), or went with dogs like pointers and poodles and such who more or less had "flags" instead of tails.

[amymarley]

You talk stupid... and uniformed. You may love your dogs...but, still don't know the right thing to do. Don't try an blast the rain forest on me, I am way to smart for you.... What you are doing is selfish and unreasonable, and if no one here is going to say it, I will. I think the whole lab thing is something you are making up, i think you are insecure and have no real animal training...again, i will "show myself", I HAVE MORE ANIMAL QUALIFICATIONS THAN YOU DO>>>>> BOTTOM LINE! Yes, you can do what you want, but if you want a real professional...well, I AM ONE... So don't try your rain forest, bunny hugger on me... I know what is the norm and what is right,,,,you just keep disfiguring your dogs and be at peace with yourself. Trust me, you don't want to go "one on one" with me with animals.... save yourself the humiliation. If you choose to go one one one with me..cool...if you just start stating cr*p, don't waste my time...... either one or the other! But for everyone's sake, post your remark accurate. Otherwise, don't waste my time.

[amymarley]

It serves purpose. A lot of dogs in Celtic areas had their tails docked because of worm-like parasites that often infested them. Folks at the time blamed these parasites for rabies, mange, lameness (likely hip displasia), etc and did this as a preventative measure with some animals. A lot of dogs were used for working by either hauling cars, hunting or other forms of labor and the cropping was done to prevent their tails and ears from being entagled in ropes and equipment...much like they tended to do with field horses and oxen and such. Hunters much prefered "fluffier" dogs to have their ears and tails docked to keep them out of harm's way (the big floppy ears don't tend to fair well in briars), or went with dogs like pointers and poodles and such who more or less had "flags" instead of tails.


That was AFTER their tails were cropped!

[brock23]

brock, I don't know about other breeds.... that may be well and true. I simply don't know....(so, no I am not bashing you).

My question was about boxers, and I know we have several "experts" on boxers here....

As for the post I posted above, that was telling someone that he/she is selfish for just doing "cosmetic" things on her dog. That is bad...in my opinion... she was defensive before anyone even "attacked" her, therefore, my thought, she knows in her heart that she is being selfish and unwilling to spare pain for her dogs..... It makes me sad.

No problem, I did not take anything as a bashing I just wanted to give my take on 1 breed. I wouldn't want to speak for Boxers either since I only know the reasons why German Shorthaired Pointers get docked.

[amymarley]

Thanks for the info, I was just bashing Dobegirl....for being brain dead. Sorry, just my opion. She might be very well adjusted, but mutilating her dogs, and having diffferent stories, makes me wonder... anyway, I am done with her. I don't want to read about her abuse for cosmetic reasons or whatever... she bores me and I have no respest (not that she cares) for her. I am sure others will read and re-read her posts and find her....well, .....we all know....
Amy

[JennSLK]

You talk stupid... and uniformed. You may love your dogs...but, still don't know the right thing to do. Don't try an blast the rain forest on me, I am way to smart for you.... What you are doing is selfish and unreasonable, and if no one here is going to say it, I will. I think the whole lab thing is something you are making up, i think you are insecure and have no real animal training...again, i will "show myself", I HAVE MORE ANIMAL QUALIFICATIONS THAN YOU DO>>>>> BOTTOM LINE! Yes, you can do what you want, but if you want a real professional...well, I AM ONE... So don't try your rain forest, bunny hugger on me... I know what is the norm and what is right,,,,you just keep disfiguring your dogs and be at peace with yourself. Trust me, you don't want to go "one on one" with me with animals.... save yourself the humiliation. If you choose to go one one one with me..cool...if you just start stating cr*p, don't waste my time...... either one or the other! But for everyone's sake, post your remark accurate. Otherwise, don't waste my time.


You need to get your head out of your A**

[makenzie71]

You need to get your head out of your A**

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/images/smilies/withstupid.gif

[amymarley]

oh, Jenn, you know more about training than me? I would have more pleasure taking you out of my a**.....
Let's play!

What did I say wrong?..... DON'T alter your dog for YOUR pleasure...sue me.... that was all I said. Some of you people here make me laugh, but I feel bad for your pets...

Mac, I thought you and I were cool.... i guess not!

AND AGAIN, I don't need too....since I ACTUALLY WORK WITH ANIMALS ON A DAILY BASIS.... domestic and exotic, so until YOU can prove ME wrong, you are wasting your time. AGAIN, To the both of you and you too MAC, lets post qualifications.....some of you are stupid, some mis-informed and some just wanting to start fights..... grow up and take good care of your animals.....
You all take care, amy

[bubbatd]

Wow people !!! Cool it !!! We have rescue vs show dogs here ! I doubt if anyone would rescue an unregistered pup from the HM and have tails or ears done ! People just see pictures of what " their breed " Ala AKC should look like and try to copy. People don't like to be different. Does this mean my grandson with DS should undergo plastic surgery to fit the " norm " ?? personnally we couldn't love him or be more proud of him the way he is ! No one has mentioned spaniel tails here... why are they cropped ??? No, I'm not a tree hugger or anything else. I let people do what ever they want to do ...it's their choice to keep natural or mutilate. Sure won't hurt us... just the dogs.

[makenzie71]

Mac, I thought you and I were cool.... i guess not!

...Mak...

You go around insisting on starting fights with people and dragging them out publicly. You have no tolerence for opinions outside your own. You're offensively egotistical. Et cetera. How can you believe anyone is cool with you?

[amymarley]

Gram, they are just looking for a fight...how sad. And how sad for their dogs? The problem here is, either really young posters looking for a fight or just stupid people......

Again, it won't hurt you or I, just the dogs....
Gram, take care, Amy

[makenzie71]

No one has mentioned spaniel tails here...

Spaniels are traditionally hunding dogs and they don't carry their tails as "flags" (so to speak) when they're on the hunt. The only thing their tail served them for is getting hung up in briars, getting bitten by foxes (etc) and other mishaps that generally did nothing but inflict further pain and inconvienience the hunters.

[amymarley]

Well, I just wrote JennSLK a pm..... if she chooses to respond, I will post the pm I wrote her and the pm she replied too... (still waiting).... I guess I gotta get my head out of my a**, since I don't know about animals....? Go figure.

But, when and if she responds, I will copy and paste it here!
Amy

[jess2416]

Well, I just wrote JennSLK a pm..... if she chooses to respond, I will post the pm I wrote her and the pm she replied too... (still waiting).... I guess I gotta get my head out of my a**, since I don't know about animals....? Go figure.

But, when and if she responds, I will copy and paste it here!
Amy

Why would you PM someone just to post here...?

[amymarley]

because most people are stupid and could learn from their animals.....That's why!

And if you read past threads you would know that I am an animal lover..... not a du*m a**, LIKE SOME...

You little girls have so much to learn. Stop going against the grind and actually learn something instead of starting fights.

[amymarley]

"cause" they were stupid...... just get along and post nice, or fight to the death..... can you compete?

[amymarley]

Again, when it comes to the show down... the pups pull back. Most of you have seen this thread, but not the pm thread.....We had alll night to hear or read it...


because most people are stupid and could learn from their animals.....That's why!

And if you read past threads you would know that I am an animal lover..... not a du*m a**, LIKE SOME...

You little girls have so much to learn. Stop going against the grind and actually learn something instead of starting fights.

[amymarley]

Still nothing...

[JennSLK]

OH I'm sorry Animalbiz, I DONT sit at my computer waiting for a thread to start. Man you think highly of yourself.

Never once did I say I know more about training than you. You probably do know more. Im willing to admit that. But you are so bloody arrogant it's sickening

[amymarley]

Oh, I really do think VERY highly of myself... I don't care if your are on your computer or not.... You are not screwing me or paying my bills...Nor are your giving any real advice as to training.

So blow me...Regardless...regarding animals..I WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN YOU! In that I find satisfaction!

[JennSLK]

You are not screwing me
:confused:

Ok then.

[amymarley]

No you said to get my head out of my a***!!!!!
I could say so much....
Dum* A**

[Dizzy]

So when is the new bill officially in then? :D :D

I never realised it had got so far along. Can't wait to see the change.

[J's crew]

Oh, I really do think VERY highly of myself... I don't care if your are on your computer or not.... You are not screwing me or paying my bills...Nor are your giving any real advice as to training.

So blow me...Regardless...regarding animals..I WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN YOU! In that I find satisfaction!


Im sorry. I need to jump in here. animalbiz, if most on here are really young and stupid, why are you wasting your time? Why do you insist on telling everyone how much more you know than them?

YOU sound REALLY insecure when you try and convince people of your astounding knowledge and training ability. And sadly, pathetic.

[joce]

animalbiz-you seem off your medication. I've seen you call someone names multiple times in one thread. You look uninformed and stupid,not anyone else. My boy was cropped for medical reasons,should I call you an idiot for assuming otherwise:rolleyes:

[Molly_Moppet]

Docking is illegal in some states of Australia. I think ear cropping is illegal everywhere. You don't see any cropped dogs anyway. I think docking served a purpose at one stage, but in this day and age it's unnecessary. This debate has been going on for a few hundred years. Anna Sewel, the author of Black Beauty was against it, and the docking of horses tails.
Animalbiz, settle petal. You sound like a spoilt child. You MAY have more qualifications than anyone, but that doesn't give you the right to ram them down other peoples necks. Having qualifications doesn't necessarily mean you're good at what you do, either. If you make your arguments rationally, you'll find more people will listen.

[rottiegirl]

Docking is illegal in some states of Australia. I think ear cropping is illegal everywhere. You don't see any cropped dogs anyway. I think docking served a purpose at one stage, but in this day and age it's unnecessary. This debate has been going on for a few hundred years. Anna Sewel, the author of Black Beauty was against it, and the docking of horses tails.
Animalbiz, settle petal. You sound like a spoilt child. You MAY have more qualifications than anyone, but that doesn't give you the right to ram them down other peoples necks. Having qualifications doesn't necessarily mean you're good at what you do, either. If you make your arguments rationally, you'll find more people will listen.
What does dog training have to do with cropping and docking in the first place??

[Molly_Moppet]

What does dog training have to do with cropping and docking in the first place??

I have no idea. Ask Animalbiz. I was simply responding to the way she brings up her qualifications whenever someone challengers her, about ANYTHING.

[rottiegirl]

I have no idea. Ask Animalbiz. I was simply responding to the way she brings up her qualifications whenever someone challengers her, about ANYTHING.
True...

[bubbatd]

I don't believe she'll answer ..... been sent to her room for a time out .

[Dobiegurl]

What does dog training have to do with cropping and docking in the first place??

Thats my question!!!

[Dobiegurl]

I HAVE MORE ANIMAL QUALIFICATIONS THAN YOU DO>>>>> BOTTOM LINE!

I'm sure you do, seeing that I am 16 years old I have a lot of work to do before I reach your NOBLE status, or more and likely higher. This whole post is very immature on your part. I have already went off on someone else in another thread and I refuse to let someone push me to that point again. I will be the bigger person. Hope you find all the happiness you need with your animals, and good luck!!!

[Calnorthdawg]

I agree with every thing that animalbiz is discussing.;)

I personally feel that docking and cropping is inhumane, cruel and just unnecessary.

Another thing that makes me laugh is when people use the defense of "they did this hundreds of years ago":rolleyes: Who cares, are we not evolving not recessing? There are so many things they did hundreds of years ago that I'm glad we don't do today. Witch hunts, slavery, women having no rights so on. They had just as much of a clue about dogs and cropping/docking as they did regarding these other terrible things mankind did.

Just to add, I have a Dobe with full tail and uncropped ears. He is lovely. There was one post on this thread (and I will find it) that said a Dobe uncropped undocked is ugly. I was VERY offended.

A friend has a Boxer with full tail and uncropped ears. Their tails are not weak. that is such a pathetic excuse.

As for hunting, there are tons of hunting breeds that do not have their tails docked. That also is a flimsy excuse. My dog broke off one of his nails, should I have him declawed...it's so stupid the flimsy excuses people use to inflict cruelty to animals. If I had my way people who dock/crop would have animal cruelty charges put against them and a hefty fine.

Docking also causes many physical problems, spinal problems from the new way of sitting. Some dogs cannot read a docked/cropped dog properly, more times docked/cropped dogs have behavioral problems and that is a fact.

I know people who hunt with their Retrievers and go through brush and woods and never had any problems with broken tails.

Anyhow, that's just my rant.:)

[Dobiegurl]

Just to add, I have a Dobe with full tail and uncropped ears. He is lovely. There was one post on this thread (and I will find it) that said a Dobe uncropped undocked is ugly. I was VERY offended.

I'm sure when you do find that thread it says, IN MY OPINION somewhere on it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just because you or anyone else doesn't agree doesn't make it wrong.

[Calnorthdawg]

Quote by JennSLK
Poor dobes. They look pathetic with tails

I happen to think that a dobe with a tail looks stupid, just like I think poodles with their hari show cut look pathetic. My PERSONAL opinion. Does not meen I love them anyless.

That is just plain ignorant and childless, probably written by a child anyway. But, to say a Dob looks pathetic, and stupid with a tail is very superficial and snotty.:mad:

[Calnorthdawg]

Quote by Dobiegurl
I'm sure when you do find that thread it says, IN MY OPINION somewhere on it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just because you or anyone else doesn't agree doesn't make it wrong.

Yes, and I voiced my opinion. You are a very angry person aren’t you?? Probably why you had your dogs tail cropped redirected aggression on your part directed at your poor helpless dog.

[Dobiegurl]

Yes, and I voiced my opinion. You are a very angry person aren’t you?? Probably why you had your dogs tail cropped redirected aggression on your part directed at your poor helpless dog.

I refuse to let someone get to me and make me look immature. Have a nice day!!! :D

[makenzie71]

But, to say a Dob looks pathetic, and stupid with a tail is very superficial and snotty.:mad:

So is saying cropped and docked dogs are "mutilated".

You guys should be showing each other a mutual respect for one another's opinions.

[Dobiegurl]

So is saying cropped and docked dogs are "mutilated".

You guys should be showing each other a mutual respect for one another's opinions.

I am. Not once did I say "my dog is better than your". I just said it was my decision because I PREFER my dobies to be cropped and docked. They're the ones judgeing me and I respect their decision, why can't they respect mine.

[Molly_Moppet]

Another thing that makes me laugh is when people use the defense of "they did this hundreds of years ago":rolleyes: Who cares, are we not evolving not recessing? There are so many things they did hundreds of years ago that I'm glad we don't do today. Witch hunts, slavery, women having no rights so on. They had just as much of a clue about dogs and cropping/docking as they did regarding these other terrible things mankind did.


I didn't use it as a defence. If you read what i said, i was merely pointing out that this argument has been going on for a very long time.
I have not problems with Animalbiz being anti-docking. I do have a problem with her thinking that qualifications (in a completely unrelated field. If she was a vet i might listen) automatically put her in the right.:D

[Dobiegurl]

I didn't use it as a defence. If you read what i said, i was merely pointing out that this argument has been going on for a very long time.
I have not problems with Animalbiz being anti-docking. I do have a problem with her thinking that qualifications (in a completely unrelated field. If she was a vet i might listen) automatically put her in the right.:D

Animalbiz has every right to express her views about docking but I agree that she thinks she is so much better because of her qualifications. Docking has nothing to do with training. She doesn't have to agree with docking but her qualifications mean nothing in this topic.

[Calnorthdawg]

Quote by makenzie71
So is saying cropped and docked dogs are "mutilated".

I almost fell off my seat laughing at this comment. Let's see, taking a wee pup and snapping off the poor things tail Lets see, hmmm I'm not a rocket scientist, but, that does sound like mutilating a poor animal. If I tore off your arm when you were a baby, that also would be mutilated.

Basically IMO (made sure I added this IMO since this redeems one self from any nasty things one may say;) ). I think people who have this insane desire to dock/crop are superficial and shallow and show no love for their pet. You may as well take your dog out back and beat it every day that's how much love your showing the poor tyke.

[makenzie71]

Another thing that makes me laugh is when people use the defense of "they did this hundreds of years ago":rolleyes: Who cares, are we not evolving not recessing? There are so many things they did hundreds of years ago that I'm glad we don't do today. Witch hunts, slavery, women having no rights so on. They had just as much of a clue about dogs and cropping/docking as they did regarding these other terrible things mankind did.

Actually the majoraty of cropping and docking practices originally came from celtic, roman and greek origins...where witches (of variety) were used by royalty for several common things, slaves were criminals or working off a debt and women not only had rights but played major roles in governing bodies...if not leaders in some cases.

[bubbatd]

Geez folks !!! I'm sure your dogs at this point don't give a d@mn whether of not they have a tail or is the ears are natural or pointy ! Most Dobe owners want their dogs to look like pictured Dobes. Some just like the breed and don't care for cosmetic alteration. I would have looked great had I made my boobs a 34 rather than my 31 ! It's a matter of choice .

[makenzie71]

I almost fell off my seat laughing at this comment. Let's see, taking a wee pup and snapping off the poor things tail Lets see, hmmm I'm not a rocket scientist, but, that does sound like mutilating a poor animal. If I tore off your arm when you were a baby, that also would be mutilated.

What if they cut off the end of my penis? Really doesn't bother me...

An arm is used apendage...had they trimmed my ear lobes and cut off my pinkies I'd give just as much a **** as I do about them circumcising me. They're not cutting off one of the dog's legs.

Maybe we should also start a movement to ban circumcisions...

[Dobiegurl]

Basically IMO (made sure I added this IMO since this redeems one self from any nasty things one may say ). I think people who have this insane desire to dock/crop are superficial and shallow and show no love for their pet. You may as well take your dog out back and beat it every day that's how much love your showing the poor tyke.

Thank you for calling me superficial and shallow, coming from you that really hurts (hope you sense my sarcasm). As for beating my dog with a stick evryday, wow is all I have to say. Why don't you go fight the actual people who do beat their dogs, burn them alive and all the other abusive things people do to their dogs and leave people who choose to crop and dock their dogs, alone. Stop trying to act like your opinion is more valuable than mines, grow up.

[makenzie71]

Geez folks !!! I'm sure your dogs at this point don't give a d@mn whether of not they have a tail or is the ears are natural or pointy ! Most Dobe owners want their dogs to look like pictured Dobes. Some just like the breed and don't care for cosmetic alteration. I would have looked great had I made my boobs a 34 rather than my 31 ! It's a matter of choice .

hahahaha spot on!

[brock23]

I agree with every thing that animalbiz is discussing.;)

I personally feel that docking and cropping is inhumane, cruel and just unnecessary.

Another thing that makes me laugh is when people use the defense of "they did this hundreds of years ago":rolleyes: Who cares, are we not evolving not recessing? There are so many things they did hundreds of years ago that I'm glad we don't do today. Witch hunts, slavery, women having no rights so on. They had just as much of a clue about dogs and cropping/docking as they did regarding these other terrible things mankind did.

Just to add, I have a Dobe with full tail and uncropped ears. He is lovely. There was one post on this thread (and I will find it) that said a Dobe uncropped undocked is ugly. I was VERY offended.

A friend has a Boxer with full tail and uncropped ears. Their tails are not weak. that is such a pathetic excuse.

As for hunting, there are tons of hunting breeds that do not have their tails docked. That also is a flimsy excuse. My dog broke off one of his nails, should I have him declawed...it's so stupid the flimsy excuses people use to inflict cruelty to animals. If I had my way people who dock/crop would have animal cruelty charges put against them and a hefty fine.
Docking also causes many physical problems, spinal problems from the new way of sitting. Some dogs cannot read a docked/cropped dog properly, more times docked/cropped dogs have behavioral problems and that is a fact.

I know people who hunt with their Retrievers and go through brush and woods and never had any problems with broken tails.

Anyhow, that's just my rant.:)


Well thank God you technically are not the tail docking police then. If you read any of my old posts in this thread. I have made sure to specify that I could not give an opinion on breeds that I am not directly familiar with, like Dobes or Boxers, so I kindly ask you not to comment on my "hunting" breed. Though we are entitled to our own thoughts as you have stated it is imperative that we have all the facts throughly researched before forming these opinions.

[makenzie71]

Dobermans, boxers, mastifs, bulls, etc were all bred to be guard dogs, fighting dogs, and working dogs. These dogs had their tails docked to prevent them from being entangled in equipment, being bitten by other animals and to prevent parsitic infection...as well as a number of other "real world" reasons. Ears were clipped on guard dogs because it was believed that they would be more "alert"...on fighting breeds to give less flesh to tear off...most working breeds do not have their ears clipped.

[Calnorthdawg]

brock23, do you use your dogs for hunting? I do know many people who do use their dogs for real life hunting. They don't dock, they also stay away from show quality type purebreds as well. I will ask these people to post their reasons why they do not dock for hunting purposes.

As for voicing my own opinion I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It is after all just "my" opinion. Just like the person who stated Dobes with uncropped tails are ugly they made a statement, so have I.

Quote by bubbatd Geez folks !!! I'm sure your dogs at this point don't give a d@mn whether of not they have a tail or is the ears are natural or pointy !
Acutally hun, they do mind. Do you realize all the physical problems these procedures do to a dog not to mention the mental problems.

Quote by makenzie71 These dogs had their tails docked to prevent them from being entangled in equipment, being bitten by other animals and to prevent parsitic infection...as well as a number of other "real world" reasons.
The more you talk the less you know. Funny isn't it.

Well, I voiced my opinion of docking/cropping. See how defensive people become when they "know" they are doing something cruel and try to justify what they are doing.

Quote by makenzie71 What if they cut off the end of my penis? Really doesn't bother me...I would LOVE to be the one to cut it off! that would be great. This speaks volumes of this persons mentality.

I guess on this forum it's not a "speak your mind" its "follow the sheep and just agree with every one. Very sad.

[Dobiegurl]

Well, I voiced my opinion of docking/cropping. See how defensive people become when they "know" they are doing something cruel and try to justify what they are doing.

Honey, you are the only one getting defensive here. Just like you voiced your opinion we are voiceing ours. Take a chill pill, and relax!!! And stop trying to provoke people, thats not very mature.

And as for me trying to justify my actions, I never tried to. Thats why I said from the beginning I cropped and docked my dog for cosmetic reasons and not once did I try to justify my actions. I know what I did and I will crop and dock all my Dobies. Thats my choice, not yours!!! You do as you please with your dogs and I'll do what I want with mine.

Remember, relax and have a nice day!!! :D

[brock23]

Calnorthdawg, I think you should change your screen name to Uninformed PETA Zealot. Go troll somewhere else.

[makenzie71]

The more you talk the less you know. Funny isn't it.

That's not a lot considering this variety of statement is the best you can conjure as defense of your beliefs.

Acutally hun, they do mind. Do you realize all the physical problems these procedures do to a dog not to mention the mental problems.

Yeah? What mental and physical problems?

I strongly suggest that if you feel that this forum's such a sad lot, you leave.

[blue]

Im gonna go with Makenzie and others that there are legitimate reasons to dock/crop. If it was purely for a cosmetic or show reason not my thing and I wouldnt do it to any dog I might own. If I where to own a working dog and there where issues for health or injury I would take all consideration for docking/cropping.

[Dobiegurl]

Ok, let me see whats my excuse for docking my dog's tail? Oh I've got one, I docked his tail because my mother, who uses a power wheelchair that weighs about 600lbs, might run it over accidently. I'm sure that would leave some damage to the long, skinny tail my dog would have had.

There you go, a purpose for docking my dog's tail. Now, will you lay off me, for real!!!

[makenzie71]

Im gonna go with Makenzie and others that there are legitimate reasons to dock/crop. If it was purely for a cosmetic or show reason not my thing and I wouldnt do it to any dog I might own. If I where to own a working dog and there where issues for health or injury I would take all consideration for docking/cropping.

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/images/smilies/bigthumb.gif

[corsomom]

I would also like to know these mental and physical problems cropped and docked dogs have.I have never heard of this.

[brock23]

There is a good chance my dog has a mental problem ;) , but I don't think I can trace it back to when he was 3 days old and had his tail docked.

[Dobiegurl]

I WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN YOU! In that I find satisfaction!

Wow, that reminds me of elementary school. When kids would argue and say things of that nature. Very immature and childish!!! And you have the nerve to tell US youngsters to grow up, wow is all I can say.

[Boxerowner]

I am all for docking and cropping if done by a vet. I have 2 docked and cropped dogs and they are not mental well sometimes they are.

Here are 2 good reasons for docking and cropping if you dont agree then dont crop/dock but its not for anyone to say who is wrong or right it is a personal preference.

Cropped ears, likewise, were the logical, functional addition to complete the Dobermans physical equipment to make him the elite family companion and protection dog that he was, even from the beginning. There are two primary reasons that we desire cropped ears, and both have to do with FUNCTION. The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a "handle" for an attacker to hang on to. Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound "localization". An erect earred dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone, whereas a drop earred dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage.

[blue]

Wow, that reminds me of elementary school. When kids would argue and say things of that nature. Very immature and childish!!! And you have the nerve to tell US youngsters to grow up, wow is all I can say.

Abiz is not currently able to defend herself so my advice is to not drag her threw the mud during her absence, be the bigger person as it where.

[Dobiegurl]

I am all for docking and cropping if done by a vet. I have 2 docked and cropped dogs and they are not mental well sometimes they are.

There are people out there who probably cut their own dogs ears with rusty scissors. Its a surgical procedure just like any other surgeries.

P.S your boxer pup in the sig is too cute. :D

[Dobiegurl]

Abiz is not currently able to defend herself so my advice is to not drag her threw the mud during her absence, be the bigger person as it where.

What are you? Her lawyer. I was absent for a little while and she continued to bash me. I will be the bigger person but I had to let it be known that age has nothing to do with immaturity. She is a fine example of that.

[Boxerowner]

There are people out there who probably cut their own dogs ears with rusty scissors. Its a surgical procedure just like any other surgeries.

P.S your boxer pup in the sig is too cute. :D


Yep there are.

I almost banded my pups tails myself but I had the vet dock them instead at 3 days old.

I will someday band them when I have more knowledge about how so as not to harm them.

Thank you very much she is my baby:D

[blue]

If you wish to bash or belittle somebody who cant post have at it.

[zoe08]

OK I just read all 13 pages of this so I feel that since I went to that trouble I should post something.

I am not totally against docking/cropping. Although I think it best if it is done shortly after they are born. If you want it cropped/docked you should probably get it already done that way.

My parents have a 3/4 cocker that has a docked tail and dew claws removed all done shortly after being born...this is what my friend's parents chose to have done. Had they not I still would have gotten her just the same and not cared whether or not the tail was docked.

Although my personal preference is un cropped ears...I am bias to floppy ears though....

If Im going to pick a breed to buy though I pick a dog that I already like the way it looks. Im not a big fan of cosmetic surgery though, dog or human.

[Dobiegurl]

Yep there are.

I almost banned my pups tails myself but I had the vet dock them instead.

I will someday banned them when I have more knowledge about how so as not to harm them.

Thank you very much she is my baby:D


I would run and take cover if I was you,lol. These people are going to be on you like white on rice for mentioning banding. They don't seem to realize that cropping and docking is not abusive compared to the awful things people do to their animals. Its a shame they compare people who choose to dock and crop their dogs to those who beat their dogs or burn them or all the other awful things people do.

[blue]

I would run and take cover if I was you,lol. These people are going to be on you like white on rice for mentioning banding. They don't seem to realize that cropping and docking is not abusive compared to the awful things people do to their animals. Its a shame they compare people who choose to dock and crop their dogs to those who beat their dogs or burn them or all the other awful things people do.

The pups where docked by a vet why should she run to the hills for that? Ive seen bulls casterated by banding. Its kinda a shame you brand us as these people against docking/cropping/banding. What are you Canadian?

[Boxerowner]

I would run and take cover if I was you,lol. These people are going to be on you like white on rice for mentioning banding. They don't seem to realize that cropping and docking is not abusive compared to the awful things people do to their animals. Its a shame they compare people who choose to dock and crop their dogs to those who beat their dogs or burn them or all the other awful things people do.

LOL. I dont really care if ppl bash me for wanting to band my pups tails there is no pain involved with banding the tails.

Cropping and docking is not abusive.

If ppl think that it is then what must they think of spay/neuter thats much more pain involved but they get over it and in the end can be much healthier just like in cropping and docking.

Its really just sad that ppl start calling ppl names there are better ways to get their opinion out.

Who uses e- collars on their dogs to me that is abuse but most think that it is humane to me thats like beating your dog but thats just my opinion who am I to tell you not to use one its your dog and personal preference.

PPl just need to play nice and get along we are here to help not humiliate.

[JennSLK]

Blue back off with the snide canadian remarks.


I like the look of a croped/docked dobe. I will contiue to crop and dock all dobes i have because I like their looks.

They are also working dogs that will do agility and schutzhund so they will need to be docked for shutzhund

[blue]

Blue back off with the snide canadian remarks.


I like the look of a croped/docked dobe. I will contiue to crop and dock all dobes i have because I like their looks.

They are also working dogs that will do agility and schutzhund so they will need to be docked for shutzhund

I have family that are Canadian, none of my coments are snide.

I cant see cropping/docking being an advantage with agility, cant say at all for schutz.

[Dizzy]

Well.. You can all argue till the cows come home, but at the end of the day it is out of all your hands, and IS becoming illigal. Well here in England.

Thank god cropping was outlawed when it was. That really IS an out-dated tradition. And totally unnecessary in todays society.

As for the circumcision comparison - well. Humans can speak for themselves, they don't need someone to do it for them. I personally would never circumcise a child, nor pierce it's ears. I think a person should have the right to decide for themselves whether they want holes, bit's chopping off. As for dogs, they can't speak for themselves, so someone will always do it for them. Same with every animal.

You're all for freedom of choice. If that is the case, you must also accept people who choose to have dogs and keep them in a way that YOU don't like. People who fight dogs (their choice - some dogs are bred to fight - it's TRADITION.. Yeah it hurts for a bit, but they get over it. We keep them fit, a sick dog isn't gonna win a fight, is it?). You must accept people who puppy farm (not technically HURTING the dogs - just not YOUR ideal. Not how YOU would keep a dog). Get my point?

People who are against docking and cropping see it as unecessary cosmetics and therefore cruel. They are as passionate about it as YOU all are about BYB's, and dog fighters etc.

You say it is your choice to do what you want to your dog. Can you hear how that sounds?

"Well.. I like my cats with no tail - lop 'em off! It's my choice!"

"I prefer my kids with fuller lips - get out the syringe betty! It's my choice!"

"Chop the dogs ears off sweetie, I prefer them that way! It's my choice!"

"Bandage up my daughters feet - the SMALLER the better!! It's my choice!"

So, if I like my dogs with no hair (too messy), no ears (don't like the look!), no tail (It get's in the way!), unable to bark (too noisy!) can I morally go ahead with it, because it's MY **** dog and I can do what I want to it? Or do I have to consider that it's a living creature, and I should just leave it be?

If you like pointy ears - buy a pointy eared dog. If you don't like tails - then you should consider a different SPECIES.

Well.. Anyway..

Like I say. It already IS becoming illegal. So nothing you can really do anymore..

[bubbatd]

Don't you think this has gone on long enough....no one's going to " Win ".

[Boxerowner]

Don't you think this has gone on long enough....no one's going to " Win ".

I agree!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion('s)

There is no need for name calling and teasing just drop it.

I believe kids also read this stuff and its wrong that they have to ready all the cus words that are going around! The Mods need to get to work and close this.

[bubbatd]

Saje - Renee ??? opinion ??

[Boxerowner]

What did I say something that was rude? If so, it wasnt ment to be. Why dont you just close this thread?

[makenzie71]

she can't close the thread...shes not a mod in the section. That's renee's job.

Suits me to close it...the threads being monotonous...

[Saje]

I always find it disappointing that these threads can't be handled in a civil manner. They pop up occassionally as you can expect on a dog forum but it seems very hard for people to have a healthy discussion about it.

I think we've all said our piece and this thread isn't going to go anywhere positive. So we're done.