Shutzhund/Personal protection trainers

[JennSLK]

I am THINKING (just thinking) of putting my Dobe into shutzhund or personal protection training. I dont really know anything about it, so I am looking for more info first.

Now if the dog was a show dog is it OK to train them in Shutzhund, or would they attack a judge?


Are they're good trainers near Calgary? The only ones I kow of are the GSD club in Edmonton.

[shepluvr]

a well trained schutzhund dog knows when to "turn it on". They should know when it is appropriate to attack, and when it is not.

[joce]

If you want to do it maybe try a diffrent breed. You can use a dobe but a trainer will more than likely tell you it will ruin your dogs natural ability to discern who is good/bad or what they should do.A dobe should have it all built into them naturally. My trainer was going to use my boy as a demo dog but we had an incedent were he picked out the bad guy and got him away all on his own and we deceided it wasn't worth confusing him when he already knows what he is doing.

That said I know some great dobes in schutzand. It really all depends on the dog. And the one I know of is in schutzand and being shown so it is more than possible.

A well trained schutzand dog will only do something when told and that is why its not said to be the best thing for dobes. I talked to the guy that does the training with the police dogs and he said its happened that a handler can't get a signal or command out and the dog jsut sits there while they get beat up.

[JennSLK]

thank you. It's something to think about. It's something I want to get into lightly.

[RedyreRottweilers]

A properly trained dog will NOT lose it's ability to determine what is and is not a threat under SchH training.

This was originally devised as a TEMPERAMENT TEST for the German Shepherd dog.

SchH is not just about bite work. It's about correct strong temperament, and the total dog.

The SchH bitework is very regimented. The dog must learn not to touch the agitator unless there is a threat. They are not to bite a person standing still. They are to release on command.

Dogs must also track and do obedience to earn a SchH title, and all 3 tests, tracking, obedience, and manwork, must be done and passed on the same day.

SchH training is a very good way to learn about dogs and dog training in general.

JENN, I would urge you to do a lot of research on this subject before you decide yes or no on doing this sort of training with your future dog.

I have had many dogs who were PP trained, and I own one bitch now who has her IPO1 title. They have certainly not been any more dangerous or more likely to respond in an inappropriate way to a non threatening stranger.

In fact I found exactly the opposite. A dog who clearly understood what constituted a threat and what did not.

Any dog who would feel a need to overtly threaten a judge in the show ring IMO does not have a correct temperament, barring certain breeds bred to be indiscriminately aggressive towards strangers such as the Fila Brasileiro.

[Barb04]

RedyreRottweilers that was well said. We are in the process of preparing our pup to do personal protection work. I do agree with you that it gives them stability. I didn't understand a dog that does protection/shutzhund work until I started getting involved with this pup, other people who do this type of training, trainers, and breeders.

I agree the best thing is to speak to knowledgeable people to make a decision if this is right for you and your dog.

[Dobiegurl]

Shutzhund is a very disciplined sport and not all dogs are cut out for it. It involves a lot of stress on the dog and if they have weak nerves than they will be pushed into avoidance very early in their training. It does not in any way take away their ability to sense and react to a threat. The dog must know when to out and are not agressive dogs just pushed to the point of defending themselves. It takes alot of work to train a dog for that sport but it looks very interesting and when I grow up I plan on participating in Schutzhund. Just talk to some experienced handlers and helpers and you can also go to leerburg. com. He gives great advice on drive work and training for bite work.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Leerburg?????

:eek:

SchH training has changed a lot in recent years. While it used to be almost exclusively dogs trained with compulsion and working off defense, many more people now train dogs using much more prey drive and positive reinforcement.

Gottfried Dildei has some good information in print.

[IliamnasQuest]

Please PLEASE avoid the leerburg page!!

He uses some extremely harsh techniques. Not only that, but he has extreme bias towards some breeds (like the chows). The man is very misguided and unfortunately misguides others along the way. There are MUCH better ways to train. Find a trainer who truly believes in positive training (they avoid the use of punishment). Your dog will thank you.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Dobiegurl]

Please PLEASE avoid the leerburg page!!

He uses some extremely harsh techniques. Not only that, but he has extreme bias towards some breeds (like the chows). The man is very misguided and unfortunately misguides others along the way. There are MUCH better ways to train. Find a trainer who truly believes in positive training (they avoid the use of punishment). Your dog will thank you.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I wasn't refferring to the actual training methods. I was just saying that there are good articles about drives and you really should have a good understanding about drives before you begin any for of protection work. He does not have harsh training techniques I would say firm, big difference. He believes in both positive and negative training but he even said it himself that he only corrects once the dog knows what is expected of him. That is whats wrong with most dogs today. No one believes in correcting a dog and only wants to use praise and food. Some dogs need firm, not harsh, owners/trainers. When Chico does what is expected of him he gets rewarded, if he acts out he get corrected. He still has his self confidence and pride but he knows if he does wrong he gets corrected and vice versa. People have big "aggressive" (or so they are deemed) and don't use any form of correction. I know if I did that with Chico he would have the run of the house. He still gets in my face sometimes and barks constantly and I tell him to down and if he doesn't listen to me I correct him down. I have my dog under control at all times and he does get corrected, its a part of life. If he was in the wild his mother would correct him far worse than I would. People need to stop thinking its cruel to correct because some dogs take advantage of the positive training methods only. In most working dogs it states in the breed description that they need firm owners. I bet if everyone took control of there dog the number of dog bites would decrease tremendously and BSL would stop. I do not blame all owners for their dogs "turning" and biting someone but some can be avoided by firm, yet loving, handling. Working breeds are not a joke especially ones trained in protection. One wrong move and its pretty much over. Those dogs need to know whos in charge and as I mentioned before those dogs are no joke and protection work is very intense stuff, not something to be taken lightly.

[Gempress]

While he does have good understanding of prey drive, etc., I don't like some of Leerburg's methods. I've read through many articles on his website. His training ideas include.

-With a jumping dog, "pinch the toes until they scream".
-For stubborn dogs, sharpening the prongs on a prong collar.
-To get a faster down, hit the dog between the shoulder blades.
-To stop dogs from fence-fighting, hit them on the head with a broomstick.
-And with an aggressive dog, hold it off the ground with a slip collar and choke it until it passes out.

And no, I don't use positive methods only. I also correct my dog with a prong collar. It's not cruel to correct. But some of his methods are waaay to harsh for my liking.

[Dobiegurl]

While he does have good understanding of prey drive, etc., I don't like some of Leerburg's methods. I've read through many articles on his website. His training ideas include.

-With a jumping dog, "pinch the toes until they scream".
-For stubborn dogs, sharpening the prongs on a prong collar.
-To get a faster down, hit the dog between the shoulder blades.
-To stop dogs from fence-fighting, hit them on the head with a broomstick.
-And with an aggressive dog, hold it off the ground with a slip collar and choke it until it passes out.
And no, I don't use positive methods only. I also correct my dog with a prong collar. It's not cruel to correct. But some of his methods are waaay to harsh for my liking.

Ok, that is harsh training, I guess I missed that part. But some owners are way to easy on their dogs and their dogs will take control of them. There needs to be a midpoint, not as drastic as Ed Frawley but not only relying on positive training methods.

[RD]

Ok, that is harsh training, I guess I missed that part. But some owners are way to easy on their dogs and their dogs will take control of them. There needs to be a midpoint, not as drastic as Ed Frawley but not only relying on positive training methods.

Why not? If it works, is humane and the dog enjoys it, do it. I don't understand the belief that handlers HAVE to use punishment in training, even when it is totally inappropriate for the situation.
I'm with Gempress. I've learned a bit from Ed Frawley's website but some of what I see him suggest can only be defined as cruelty. I wouldn't trust that guy as far as I could throw him.

[BigDog2191]

Punishment is a great tool when it's used appropriately. Ed Frawley, in my opinion, is a good trainer. From what I've seen at his website though, he seems to think punishment and harsh methods (which there is really nothing wrong with) is the only way to go. And I completely disagree; every dog will respond differently to a different type of method. You need to find what works for your dog and use it.

But if you get a positive reaction from purely positive reinforcement, you should keep it. If you feel your dog needs punishment, do so, but do so appropriately.

If you know your dog, you'll pick up quickly on how he responds.

[Gempress]

From what I've seen at his website though, he seems to think punishment and harsh methods (which there is really nothing wrong with) is the only way to go.

Sorry, but I've got to disagree with you. I see something very wrong with choking dogs until they go unconscious.

But I do agree with your view on positive reinforcement. There's nothing wrong with using correction. But if positive reinforcement works wonderfully on your dog, I don't see a reason to start using correction "just because".

[Serena]

I have zero respect for Ed Frawley...

There is a huge difference between a harsh correction and downright abusing the animal..

and don't even get me started on his breeding "ethics"..

From the website:

My name is Ed Frawley, I own Leerburg Video and Kennel. I breed German Shepherds and produce dog training videos for a living.

[Zoom]

I somewhat agree with some of the basic ideas he has, i.e. establishing yourself as Top Dog and not letting your dog run the show, but past that, no thanks. I quit 'listening' to him when he advised someone to beat the crap out of their dog for jumping, including kicking them in the butt when they were down on the ground whimpering from the knee in the chest.

I do understand that he works with extremely high-drive GSD's and probably for so long that he's forgotten not every dog has to be almost killed in order for it to respect you.

As far as Shutzhund for "Jazz", I'd find a good trainer who will tell you if your dog has the right temperment for it to begin with.

[JennSLK]

Thanx guys. Im still not sure yet. Between Agility and show training, i might be too much. I am going to wait untill she is done her showing to start with competitive obediance, maybe I will wait till then to do Shutzhund.

It's not something I want to take lightly.

I might even wait and get a working Dobe and train her in Shutzhund and leave Jazz alone.

Im still colecting info. I understand basicly what it is, but Im not sure if it;s something I want to get into.

[tessa_s212]

he seems to think punishment and harsh methods (which there is really nothing wrong with) is the only way to go.

harsh

1.Unpleasantly coarse and rough to the touch. See Synonyms at rough.
2.Disagreeable to the senses, especially to the sense of hearing.
3.Severe, cruel, or exacting harsh punishment; a harsh overseer
4.Unpleasant or uncomfortable: a harsh wilderness.

Harsh methods have nothing wrong with them? Being severe or cruel towards your dog in training is perfectly fine?:confused:

[BigDog2191]

harsh

1.Unpleasantly coarse and rough to the touch. See Synonyms at rough.
2.Disagreeable to the senses, especially to the sense of hearing.
3.Severe, cruel, or exacting harsh punishment; a harsh overseer
4.Unpleasant or uncomfortable: a harsh wilderness.

Harsh methods have nothing wrong with them? Being severe or cruel towards your dog in training is perfectly fine?:confused:

What qualifies as being severe or cruel? To you, that may be a choke chain or a prong collar. Which, yes, I believe is perfectly fine. You see that 'unpleasant and comfortable' as the 4th definition? That's what I meant. When I say 'harsh', I mean the use of punishment. And punishment is -supposed- to be 'unpleasant and uncomfortable'.

[BigDog2191]

Sorry, but I've got to disagree with you. I see something very wrong with choking dogs until they go unconscious.

But I do agree with your view on positive reinforcement. There's nothing wrong with using correction. But if positive reinforcement works wonderfully on your dog, I don't see a reason to start using correction "just because".

I've seen no such thing at his website. I did see that he advises people to go through intense training when they're having problems with their dogs and to even use a prong collar. And -that- is exactly what I do agree with.

Choking a dog until it goes unconscious is inhumane and simply -wrong-.

I don't care too much for Ed Frawley as he is a big jerk but from what -I- saw, I didn't see why everyone hated him, because he has given some great advice. But now that you tell me he's advising people to do such things and doing them to his own dogs, that's a different story. I may have to go back and take a look at his website again.

[BigDog2191]

I somewhat agree with some of the basic ideas he has, i.e. establishing yourself as Top Dog and not letting your dog run the show, but past that, no thanks. I quit 'listening' to him when he advised someone to beat the crap out of their dog for jumping, including kicking them in the butt when they were down on the ground whimpering from the knee in the chest.

I do understand that he works with extremely high-drive GSD's and probably for so long that he's forgotten not every dog has to be almost killed in order for it to respect you.

As far as Shutzhund for "Jazz", I'd find a good trainer who will tell you if your dog has the right temperment for it to begin with.

Zoom, Rocky is a very high-drive dog as well. And I have done no such thing as Ed Frawley has with his dogs and still maintain my German shepherd to being a good, under control pet.

Because he works with high-drive dogs is no excuse to choke them unconscious.

[Gempress]

Bigdog, check this link. Look under the section about handler aggressive dogs. It clearly recommends hanging the dog (using a leash passed over a tree limb) until it passes out.

http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm

[JennSLK]

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.


I want to cry

[Dobiegurl]

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.

That is terrible. I never actually looked at the training articles I just read about drive work to get an understanding. As for the person who said why not rely on only positive reinforcement does not know my dog. If that works for you then thats fine but there are many dogs who OWN there owners and need a correction every once in a while. You do not know my dog but he is literally crazy. He has a very high drive and dominant personality. At eight weeks old he had my friends scared of him and he never backs down. He tries to overthrow my authority, and he needs to be corrected to let him know I am in charge. I agree with Ed that the dog should know you have the power but what he does is just un necessary and rediculous. My dog needs corrections in order for us to live in the same house. I would probably be dead right now if I did not correct Chico because he has the power to leave serious damage if he did not know who was in charge. When dealing with a dominant, working dog such as the Doberman you need corrections to keep your status in check. Not all dogs need them but when you have a very dominant 85LB of pure muscle Doberman they are crucial. Also he does not get treats when training because he gets too fixated on the food and ignores me. I know what works for my dog because he has been with me since he was eight weeks old and some people need to handle their out of control dog and not let the dog handles you.

[Brattina88]

If you take classes on early childhood education you're taught that there is a difference between discipline and punishment in teaching. I know that they're just words, and it depends on how people view them, but I believe discipline is the corrections that are sometimes necessary. Punishment is beyond that, hanging the dog, physically pinning one down for 10mins, hitting, kicking, ect is NOT okay. In my experience yelling and hitting increases levels of aggression. There are ways to show a dog "who's boss" without doing so physically. We, as humans, are supposed to have the brains to know and do this. Positive reinforcement is awesome, and usually works for most dogs, but not all. There isn't a single training technique for kids that works with every kid, and the same goes with dogs.

[Dobiegurl]

Wouldn't hanging a dog till it passes out lower the dogs confidence? If he does do that then he is controdicting himself because he said without confidence the dog will not be able to excel in Shutzhund and pp work.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I have 3 bitches who think they are the hottest thing since sliced bread. They live together in my house.

One is an IPO1 import who is one of the most dominant dogs I've ever seen with other bitches. Not a fight picker. Just the big honcho, and very clear about it. She is coming 9 very soon, and still the unquestioned bosslady in the yard and the house.

One is a 4YO troublemaker-since-day-one nervy tip toe walking WHAT-ARE-YOU-LOOKING at type of bitch with other dogs. She would love to press the envelope with the old bitch. She does get verbally corrected by me if she gets too over bearing.

and #3 is a VERY self confident but easy breezy loving girl who is not push over but does not look for trouble.

The smallest of the 3 is 94 lbs.

The young bitch who is 19 mos is skimming 100 all the time. Sometimes minus, most times +.

I control this pack with my eyes. If I stand up in a certain manner, everyone is on the deck with their chin on the floor. They lie this way when we eat as well. I don't raise my voice. I don't push, shove, or collar correct. But I'm a VERY powerful alpha, and I control all resources to my benefit.

I do almost exclusively all positive clicker-type training. You can see some of my results in the Training forum under "clips of the Retrieve".

I use correction when it's necessary. The longer I have dogs and the more I learn, and the more I train, the less I find necessary.

[Dobiegurl]

I'm not saying I'm yanking Chico's collar left and right, but when he was younger he needed to learn I was not his littermate but the leader of the pack. Now since he is almost a year old he knows when is work time and when is play time. I too, give him the look with my hands on my hips and feet planted on the ground and an intense look in my face and when I do that he drops to the floor like an automatic down. He still tries to overthrow me and needs a physical correction (not hitting, just a collar pull) but in time he will learn. I've tried the clicker and that made him worse. He got so fixated on the treat that he totally ignored me and the commands I was giving him. As I grow and become more active in the dog world I will probably gain experience and find more affective training methods but what I am doing now seems to be working and my trainer said she was amazed at how much Chico has progressed through his training.

[Zoom]

Big Dog, I never said it was an excuse. I rather despise most of this guy's training methods. I guess what I left out was the fact that I had a very similar converstaion with my boss who worked for the Dept. of Defense training their dogs. All are just pretty much nuts when they first get there; they will bite anything and anyone at anytime. So a *very* firm hand is needed, but Ed takes it three steps further. What I was meaning is that most of the dogs in his kennel would probably make Rocky look like a lab in temperment comparison. I'm sure that his constant physical, let's just call it abuse, doesn't help either.

[amymarley]

Dang, I could make a buch of money here...lol! I can do protective training and not have your dog pass out, but rather spoil your dog, but give him/her self esteem and exercise his or her mind. That is awful. I do have several protective sleeves, but they are for training, not making your dog break. I don't believe in breaking your dog or his/her will. That is awful.

[Mordy]

I use correction when it's necessary. The longer I have dogs and the more I learn, and the more I train, the less I find necessary.

This is an excellent point.

I see so many uninformed people believe in all this "harsh corrections are necessary" BS. I fault them for not being willing to even just read about less outdated methods. Especially in the last 10-15 years so many advances have been made through actual research on how animals learn.

Even in Schutzhund (and other dog sports) the truly gifted trainers train using positive methods.

We can all learn so much from the principles that for example allow us to teach a fully grown killer whale to pee into a cup on command when a urine sample is needed.

So my advice to people new to dog training is: read what you can get your hands on, do not form an opinion until you fully grasp a particular concept, and at least learn about different approaches. After that, there's plenty of time to dissect everything and take away what you want.

[Dobiegurl]

This is an excellent point.

I see so many uninformed people believe in all this "harsh corrections are necessary" BS. I fault them for not being willing to even just read about less outdated methods. Especially in the last 10-15 years so many advances have been made through actual research on how animals learn.

Even in Schutzhund (and other dog sports) the truly gifted trainers train using positive methods.

We can all learn so much from the principles that for example allow us to teach a fully grown killer whale to pee into a cup on command when a urine sample is needed.

So my advice to people new to dog training is: read what you can get your hands on, do not form an opinion until you fully grasp a particular concept, and at least learn about different approaches. After that, there's plenty of time to dissect everything and take away what you want.

I tried everything with my dog, from the clicker, to food, to alot of praise and he wouldn't respond. So the only way I could train him was with corrections. Some dogs do need corrections every once in a while and I wil not change my opinion on that. Alot of dogs do respond to the newer training techniques but some won't. People need to realize what is the best way to get a response out of your dog and not just follow one technique because thats the "in" training method.

[amymarley]

I tried everything with my dog, from the clicker, to food, to alot of praise and he wouldn't respond. So the only way I could train him was with corrections. Some dogs do need corrections every once in a while and I wil not change my opinion on that. Alot of dogs do respond to the newer training techniques but some won't. People need to realize what is the best way to get a response out of your dog and not just follow one technique because thats the "in" training method.


Dobiegurl... this is meant to be postive, and not attacking you at all... You are not a trainer, nor is many dog loving people on this board. Although, you may say you tried "everything" I am sure you did not do it correctly. As I said on another thread, I admire you for even trying or caring about your dog. Training takes years of experience, and even then, you are still learning. I pride myself as a "professional" NOT an expert, because I an learn new things everyday.

As for the different techniques you have been using, they are all great, you (and others) just don't know the direction, triggers, or responses to correct the behaviors. It does not mean you are a bad dog owner/guardian...at all.

I do believe in correction, to be honeset, all postive training requires correction. How else is a dog, child etc... to learn? It's what you do during the correction and how you do it, is what helps.

I, nor anyone else "really" give you good training advice over the net, since I, (we) don't know you or your dog in person.... I would consult a behavorist/trainer for a session or two and then do a follow up.

Again, you have the heart and drive, but there is "something" not working for you and your dog.
Take care and good luck.
Amy

[Dobiegurl]

Dobiegurl... this is meant to be postive, and not attacking you at all... You are not a trainer, nor is many dog loving people on this board. Although, you may say you tried "everything" I am sure you did not do it correctly. As I said on another thread, I admire you for even trying or caring about your dog. Training takes years of experience, and even then, you are still learning. I pride myself as a "professional" NOT an expert, because I an learn new things everyday.

As for the different techniques you have been using, they are all great, you (and others) just don't know the direction, triggers, or responses to correct the behaviors. It does not mean you are a bad dog owner/guardian...at all.

I do believe in correction, to be honeset, all postive training requires correction. How else is a dog, child etc... to learn? It's what you do during the correction and how you do it, is what helps.

I, nor anyone else "really" give you good training advice over the net, since I, (we) don't know you or your dog in person.... I would consult a behavorist/trainer for a session or two and then do a follow up.

Again, you have the heart and drive, but there is "something" not working for you and your dog.
Take care and good luck.
Amy

I never said anyone was attacking me I was just stating my opinion. I have been working with a trainer since Chico was 10 weeks old. She was there to help me through all the training techniques and showed me the right way. We tried everything until one day she gave a choke chain and that still didn't wok. Then she gave me a prong and finally something worked. I don't think you understand what I mean by corrections. I'm not yanking his collar left and right and now since he knows what is expected of him he only need a verbal correction and rarely a physical correction with the leash if he gets to excited and starts pulling. We have come a long way since he was a puppy, it kind of shocked me because when I first got him I was like this is going to be imposible but I am very pleased with the training I have completed so far. He is actually going to his first leg of his CD this saturday. I never would have imagined this could have happened and I am proud of both him and me. When I mean corrections I mean when they are young because without guidance they would be lost. Just like a child, when they are young you have to guide them and discipline them and when they grow up and mature they don't need it anymore. That is whats wrong with the world today. Parents don't dicipline their children anymore and their out of control same things with dogs. These dogs are out of control today they need guidance. I was just trying to say that every dog is different and not every dog is going to respond to every training techniques. Find something that works for you and your dog, not just because everyone else is doing it. Ans don't think I don't praise him for good work because he gets alot of praise and he loves training. I just feel some dogs need a balance of both to be the best dogs they can be. I rather my dog get corrected as a puppy instead of growing up out of control and gets away from me because he was out of control and bit someone and get put down, but thats my opinion.

[Mordy]

Alot of dogs do respond to the newer training techniques but some won't.

That is a very typical answer for people who don't know enough about positive training methods and operant conditioning yet. It was a topic that came up repeatedly at the last training seminar I attended and was discussed in great detail.

Believe me, it works on any kind of animal, from a (relatively dumb) chicken to highly intelligent dolphins and anything in between - that fact is scientifically proven. It's even used on people. :) You just need to find the correct approach and motivation for the individual in question and failure is generally a problem in applying the methods correctly and "getting the point across", not in the dog.

I read for example that you said your dog was getting too fixated on the treat - that is one example for wrong implementation of clicker training.

Positive training does not mean the dog is generally without guidance, "out of control" and is just running wild until it decides to listen for once and the trainer never interferes.

"Discipline" does not equal pain or discomfort. It means establishing a set of firm rules the dog is expected to live by and these do not require enforcement by yanking on the collar, hitting or worse. (To make it clear, I'm not saying you are doing this, it's just a general statement about certain training methods.)

I guess what I'm getting at is don't knock what you don't know. We all have our limitations and I'm sure I would think less highly of positive methods if I hadn't seen them applied and working to all kinds of dogs across the board, consistently. And I'm lucky to have an obedience instructor who firmly believes in these concepts and knows how to apply them - up to the highest levels of utility obedience.

[Dobiegurl]

Believe me, it works on any kind of animal, from a (relatively dumb) chicken to highly intelligent dolphins and anything in between - that fact is scientifically proven. It's even used on people. :) You just need to find the correct approach and motivation for the individual in question and failure is generally a problem in applying the methods correctly and "getting the point across", not in the dog.

I have to disagree. It does not work on every animal or human for that matter. For example I have a friend who has never been punished in her life or even yelled at, all her mom does is tell her how wonderful she is and she's perfect and blah, blah,blah and this girl has no structure in her life. She does whatever she wants and is as bad as can be, misses school, doesn't clean, gets into trouble at school (when she actually attends), has no manners, and is plain rude and never gets reprimanded. I feel so bad for her because she has not learned how to grow up and mature because her mother never believed in disciplining her child (I don't mean physically just in general). You cannot rely on positive reinforcement and totally disregard negative behavior. I have found that the balance of both training techniques works best for my dog not just one and now he knows what is expected of him so I use corrections less and less and focus more on praise and building his confidence.

[Mordy]

I have to disagree. It does not work on every animal or human for that matter. For example I have a friend who has never been punished in her life or even yelled at, all her mom does is tell her how wonderful she is and she's perfect and blah, blah,blah and this girl has no structure in her life. She does whatever she wants and is as bad as can be, misses school, doesn't clean, gets into trouble at school (when she actually attends), has no manners, and is plain rude and never gets reprimanded. I feel so bad for her because she has not learned how to grow up and mature because her mother never believed in disciplining her child (I don't mean physically just in general). You cannot rely on positive reinforcement and totally disregard negative behavior. I have found that the balance of both training techniques works best for my dog not just one and now he knows what is expected of him so I use corrections less and less and focus more on praise and building his confidence.

Again, these are the results of incorrect implementation. If your friend had been motivated correctly to do what she was expected to do, she would have found it rewarding enough to do it.

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, positive training does not mean that you just constantly tell your dog how wonderful it is and don't give it any structure in its life. Far from it. Read some books on the topic and maybe visit some seminars to get an idea about how to use these methods properly.

You may disagree that it "doesn't work" for all people/animals, but it is a scientifically proven fact that it does. :) Just as a partial example you might want to actually take the time and read this site:

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

[Dobiegurl]

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, positive training does not mean that you just constantly tell your dog how wonderful it is and don't give it any structure in its life. Far from it. Read some books on the topic and maybe visit some seminars to get an idea about how to use these methods properly.

(I posted something earlier but it got erased so here are the main points I made in the other one, I am so mad that it was erased, oh well)

Well thats what I percieve "positive training", just praise nothing else. It may not be the definition of it but that is where I think we had a miscomunication. I have a very open mind about it and will read the website you provided me with. I will try to get a better understanding of the whole concept. Sorry if I sounded defensive but I just get really irritated when people like at pet stores and stuff always judge me for putting a prong on my dog. The technique I used with my dog worked miracles on him but I know everdog will not respond to that.

[amymarley]

I don't think you nor anyone else posted anything wrong here. The bottom line is, whatever you and your trainer is doing is not working. The only thing I can really contribute, which is hard, is to involve one or two more trainers for a consult. We ALL know that every trainer is going to give a different answer, most of the time. Every trainer is a bit "sensitive" on training. I know when I first started and really got the hang of things, there were still problems.

I had a show with 4 "real" trainers... if none of us could figure it out, we would all consult each other. Just like brainstorming...it was wonderful. Now, with years under my belt, I rarely, if ever need any advice (only because it took me a long time, blood , sweat and tears) to get me where I am now. Sometimes when us trainers would brainstorm, it would be a real challenge and sometimes, it was really easy, right under our noses.

The same goes with human medical advice, there is no hurt in getting a second opinion.

Good luck with you and your pup.
Amy

[JennSLK]

Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS.

Emma can not have corrections, or at least a gentle no, because anything else will brake her.

Some dogs will NOT respond to certain things.

[Dobiegurl]

I don't think you nor anyone else posted anything wrong here. The bottom line is, whatever you and your trainer is doing is not working. The only thing I can really contribute, which is hard, is to involve one or two more trainers for a consult. We ALL know that every trainer is going to give a different answer, most of the time. Every trainer is a bit "sensitive" on training. I know when I first started and really got the hang of things, there were still problems.

I had a show with 4 "real" trainers... if none of us could figure it out, we would all consult each other. Just like brainstorming...it was wonderful. Now, with years under my belt, I rarely, if ever need any advice (only because it took me a long time, blood , sweat and tears) to get me where I am now. Sometimes when us trainers would brainstorm, it would be a real challenge and sometimes, it was really easy, right under our noses.

The same goes with human medical advice, there is no hurt in getting a second opinion.

Good luck with you and your pup.
Amy

I never said Chico wasn't trained. He is very obedient and is training to become my mother's service animal. We worked through every problem he's had and came up with a solution. I found the technique that worked for me and my dog and he turned out fine. I was just simply making the point that all dogs are different and do not respond to the same thing. Like me for example. All my mom had to do to punish my sister was take away the T.V or something and she would be straight, but I could care less about that stuff and I was hard headed so my mom had to pull out the switch and thats how she disciplined me. She knew that just taking the TV away from me would not bother me one bit and that was the only way to get through to me (please don't get the idea that I had to whoop chico, one thing I learned as a child was to NEVER hit a dog, I remember I got whooped for that too).
I just don't believe everydog can and will respond to one training technique. Just like kids, when their good you praise them and when there bad and already know what is expected of them then you correct them.
Chico is very obedient, and has come a long way since I got him. We have a bond that nobody can touch and we are in sync with each other. I can read him like a book and same for him. He can anticipate what I want from him without even giving him a command. This is just the first year of his life and I plan on strenghtening our bond and making him the best dog he can be.

[amymarley]

Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS.

Emma can not have corrections, or at least a gentle no, because anything else will brake her.

Some dogs will NOT respond to certain things.

Just my own belief.... I think you are wrong... wether you are working with a dog, another animal or even a disabled human, they can learn. You can have your beliefs, and that is your right, but I trained hundreds of dogs with massive "issues" and every single one has come around with flying colors. But, then again, that was my job, and I have the inspiration for it.

I am nothing else but a trainer... I am not a banker, a mechanic, a car salesman etc...therefore, I know nothing else. If you were a TRUE trainer, then your remark would sound ridiculous. Of course every animal can learn. Give your dog some credit. To be honest, most of the time, it's not the dog, but the owner who is set in his/her own ways and does not train in a proper fashion.

Every person, animal or dog WILL respond to something, the hard part is finding out what it is. That is why I take my animal training so seriously, you have to find that ONE trigger that will make your buddy respond. I know you are prob. rolling your eyes, but again after so many animals that I have trained and trained well, with positive reinforcement.... well I am just a bit cocky...lol

When, and if I do find a dog/animal (since I don't just specialize with dogs, but all animals) that I can not train in any certain way,I will post it here. As of yet, it has not happened.

The thing here is there are sooooo many people, and this is a dog forum, where as I, specialize in all types of animals. Most people here are just dog lovers who are trying the best they can to train their dogs.

I do this for a living. If you need help, then this is the place to be, people love their dogs here and will help in any way they can.

And if you still think it's BS, then I invite you (very friendly) to come to Reno, you pay your way and I will train your dog for free, with you there. I only say this, or will do this, because I don't want owners to be discouraged or feel that their dog is not living up to the potential they need or deserve.
Amy

[Dobiegurl]

Just my own belief.... I think you are wrong... wether you are working with a dog, another animal or even a disabled human, they can learn. You can have your beliefs, and that is your right, but I trained hundreds of dogs with massive "issues" and every single one has come around with flying colors. But, then again, that was my job, and I have the inspiration for it.

I am nothing else but a trainer... I am not a banker, a mechanic, a car salesman etc...therefore, I know nothing else. If you were a TRUE trainer, then your remark would sound ridiculous. Of course every animal can learn. Give your dog some credit. To be honest, most of the time, it's not the dog, but the owner who is set in his/her own ways and does not train in a proper fashion.

Every person, animal or dog WILL respond to something, the hard part is finding out what it is. That is why I take my animal training so seriously, you have to find that ONE trigger that will make your buddy respond. I know you are prob. rolling your eyes, but again after so many animals that I have trained and trained well, with positive reinforcement.... well I am just a bit cocky...lol

When, and if I do find a dog/animal (since I don't just specialize with dogs, but all animals) that I can not train in any certain way,I will post it here. As of yet, it has not happened.

The thing here is there are sooooo many people, and this is a dog forum, where as I, specialize in all types of animals. Most people here are just dog lovers who are trying the best they can to train their dogs.

I do this for a living. If you need help, then this is the place to be, people love their dogs here and will help in any way they can.

And if you still think it's BS, then I invite you (very friendly) to come to Reno, you pay your way and I will train your dog for free, with you there. I only say this, or will do this, because I don't want owners to be discouraged or feel that their dog is not living up to the potential they need or deserve.
Amy


I don't think thats what she meant. I think she meant that all dogs will not respond to the same exact things as other dogs and you have to find the best way to get a response out of your dog. What works for one dog may not work for a different dog. Some will not respond with corrections, some won't respond to the food or toy. Its all based on your dogs williness to do something for praise or whatever. No two dogs are the same thats all I'm trying to say and for saying that every dog should respond to the same technique is insane because they are all individuals. And she never said they COULDN'T learn just didn't respond to a certain technique and thats where the owner and trainer come in to try to fix or find a better way to get through to the dog. Any dog can be trained and I do believe it's the owners fault for not taking time to train the dog. There are many different ways to train your dog you just have to find the one that works for your dog.

[amymarley]

No, re-read what she said....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS.

That is what she said......

Of COURSE SOMETHING WILL work on EVERY dog, that is not BS. You just have to know what WILL work for your dog.

The above statement she posted, in her own words, is soooo wrong. I don't know any other way to take it.

Re-read her first sentance...

[doberkim]

no, animalbiz, i agree - you are misinterpeting her statement, and i agree with what she says - one training method/instrument/etc will NOT be effective on every animal.

[amymarley]

No, and not to start a war...

she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."

Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.

Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.

[amymarley]

No, and not to start a war...

she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."

Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.

She is not stating the fact you posted above, again re-read her first line.

Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.

[Dobiegurl]

No, and not to start a war...

she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."

Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.

She is not stating the fact you posted above, again re-read her first line.

Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.


I understand what you are saying but I think she MEANT that every dog will not respond to one particular "something" as Mordy said that all dogs should respond to her technique. I agree ever dog will respond to "something" but not the same "something" as another dog.

[RedyreRottweilers]

ALL animals can be trained using operant conditioning.

No exceptions.

[JennSLK]

Every person, animal or dog WILL respond to something, the hard part is finding out what it is. That is why I take my animal training so seriously, you have to find that ONE trigger that will make your buddy respond.

I didnt mean it liket that. What I did mean was that ONE thing whont work on every single dog out there. Something was a bad word.

[amymarley]

Of course not, every dog has their day! lol.. There are just different methods to train....

[Dobiegurl]

Of course not, every dog has their day! lol.. There are just different methods to train....


Exactly!!! Thats what I've been trying to say through the whole thread, not everydog will respond to the same exact way as another dog.

[IliamnasQuest]

He does not have harsh training techniques I would say firm, big difference.

Let me quote to you from the leerburg site on his opinion of chows:

"This eye contact concept may work but only if you get eye contact by helicoptering this dog in a 380 degree circle about 3 feet off the ground - he will be looking directly into your eyes and know for sure that you are pissed off at what he is doing. "

He also believes in not socializing dogs, and in using a prong collar roughly on fearful dogs. He's is NOT a good trainer in my opinion and is a detriment to good dogs everywhere. I'm appalled that people actually believe in his training methods. He's primarily a Koehler-type, and Koehler was willing to stick a dog's head under water to "teach it" not to dig.

Frawley wouldn't be able to train a dog without force. He's just not capable of understanding dog behavior, from everything I've read on his site. He believes that a dog should mind because of fear of consequences (much like you appear to) and not because a person gained an understanding of what the dog needs and is working with the dog instead of against it.

People who train their dogs with force will never - and I can say this unequivocably after 17 years of training, teaching classes, and doing behavior consultations - have as good a relationship with their dog as those who train with understanding and care. The sad thing is, they truly do think they have a great relationship and won't understand the difference until they change their training methods.

Is there a place for a correction? Sure, I think there is. But NOT in the training stages, and NOT unless the dog understands 100% why the correction happened. Using a prong collar as a training collar is a cop-out .. cartwheeling a dog around you because you don't have a clue as to how to deal with it is animal cruelty.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[RedyreRottweilers]

I so completely agree with your post, Melanie.

It is amazing how many people feel that you are allowing your dogs to run the show by using positive methods to train.

On another forum, I was vilified, poo pooed, and generally flamed for INSISTING that you should not put a prong collar on a dog and correct it harshly for a minor food bowl guarding/growling issue.

I recommended the usual. Put the bowl away, hand feed for a period, put the bowl back down, feed in bowl by handful for a period, inserting tasty treats now and then, and when you get the bowl back on the floor, dropping tasties in it as the dog is eating.

This was a PUG for crying out loud, and many people felt the dog should be corrected on a collar until it dared not growl over it's food.

Ridiculous.

[IliamnasQuest]

Hi Red -

I'm on a very active German shepherd board, too, and it seems that nearly every problem posted gets answered by people saying "put a prong collar on your dog!". I don't quite understand why people insist on using pain to train, when there are ways to do it without pain. And I've found that a good number of those promoting the prong now have dogs that they can't handle without a prong collar. You probably get as frustrated as I do in dealing with some of those people.

My goal is always to have a dog that responds to me with NO collar, so I use the least amount of collar possible to start with. I actually prefer to start off-leash and that's how I train my dogs to heel. It makes ME work harder and makes me truly understand what motivates my dog - but it builds an incredible relationship with trust as the main component.

Not only that, but it's fascinating to watch my dogs and figure out what makes them tick! I can stand there for hours just watching them interact with each other. I want to understand them, not just force them to mind.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[RedyreRottweilers]

I use a prong. I use it to polish heeling and attention, mostly because I can use very small movements if I need to correct, and the collar stays where it's supposed to.

I show in obedience with a buckle collar.

I am the absolute alpha here, but I don't need a pinch collar, or shouting, or alpha rolls to maintain my position.

It's an indication to me of a person who cannot learn and grow who clings to older correction based training methods when there are better MUCH MORE FUN WAYS to teach/train dogs.

:D

[JennSLK]

Prongs dont hurt.

I put one on my leg and yanked on it. Yes that hurt a BIT but when used properly it doesnt cause damage

[Dobiegurl]

I'm on a very active German shepherd board, too, and it seems that nearly every problem posted gets answered by people saying "put a prong collar on your dog!". I don't quite understand why people insist on using pain to train, when there are ways to do it without pain. And I've found that a good number of those promoting the prong now have dogs that they can't handle without a prong collar. You probably get as frustrated as I do in dealing with some of those people.


That may be true for some dogs but alot of dogs do fine when taken of the prong. When I took Chico of the prong he was fine. He listens to me both on leash and off leash. I can call him from anywhere and he will come running. It all depends on how you use the prong. The prong is not to be used harshly. I rarely tugged it, just when he got really out of hand and when we trained at home I used his buckle collar. It was just in public and when people came over when I put the prong on because he used to get too excited around people and once he realized he could'nt jump I started using a martingale in public. The thing with the prong is that you need to switch it up. One day use the buckle collar, then the next day the martingale, and so on. I only used the prong when necessary, usually when he got too hyper. I don't use the prong now, unless extremely necessary. We just went to a dog show and he was on his buckle collar all day and never left my side. That was the first Dog Show he has ever been too and he behaved on the buckle even though I know he wanted to play with the other dogs. It is posible to change a dog from a prong to a different type of collar. And prongs are not bad but people believe that they will fix any problem but that is far from the truth, some problems will not be fixed by pinching them. I will still use prongs on my future dogs but I will not use it their whole lives. I see nothing wrong with prong collars.

[Dobiegurl]

Let me quote to you from the leerburg site on his opinion of chows:

"This eye contact concept may work but only if you get eye contact by helicoptering this dog in a 380 degree circle about 3 feet off the ground - he will be looking directly into your eyes and know for sure that you are pissed off at what he is doing. "

He also believes in not socializing dogs, and in using a prong collar roughly on fearful dogs. He's is NOT a good trainer in my opinion and is a detriment to good dogs everywhere. I'm appalled that people actually believe in his training methods. He's primarily a Koehler-type, and Koehler was willing to stick a dog's head under water to "teach it" not to dig.

Frawley wouldn't be able to train a dog without force. He's just not capable of understanding dog behavior, from everything I've read on his site. He believes that a dog should mind because of fear of consequences (much like you appear to) and not because a person gained an understanding of what the dog needs and is working with the dog instead of against it.

People who train their dogs with force will never - and I can say this unequivocably after 17 years of training, teaching classes, and doing behavior consultations - have as good a relationship with their dog as those who train with understanding and care. The sad thing is, they truly do think they have a great relationship and won't understand the difference until they change their training methods.

Is there a place for a correction? Sure, I think there is. But NOT in the training stages, and NOT unless the dog understands 100% why the correction happened. Using a prong collar as a training collar is a cop-out .. cartwheeling a dog around you because you don't have a clue as to how to deal with it is animal cruelty.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

If you re read the whole thread you would see that I agree with everyone that Frawley is EVIL.

[amymarley]

Again, my training is an art form to me... therefore, I don't use prong or other harsh methods. I firmly believe that if you are a true trainer, than you can use your gifts and become one with the animal. I am not trying to sound like a bunny hugger, but I do this as a profession. Of course, coming into it, I had no idea, but I learned over 10 years. Everyone has their own method, and that is their right. I am not here to start a war, I just know my own abilities and have seen the outcome of the animals (not just dogs) that I have trained.

Also, most people on here are not "animal trainers" but do train their dog. I have learned from some of the best. As long as you love your dog and do positive reinforcement, not much can go wrong. The most problems that I see, is when I get hired for a behavior consult and the "trainer" or owner is doing it all wrong. Good luck!

[Dobiegurl]

Again, my training is an art form to me... therefore, I don't use prong or other harsh methods. I firmly believe that if you are a true trainer, than you can use your gifts and become one with the animal. I am not trying to sound like a bunny hugger, but I do this as a profession. Of course, coming into it, I had no idea, but I learned over 10 years. Everyone has their own method, and that is their right. I am not here to start a war, I just know my own abilities and have seen the outcome of the animals (not just dogs) that I have trained.

Also, most people on here are not "animal trainers" but do train their dog. I have learned from some of the best. As long as you love your dog and do positive reinforcement, not much can go wrong. The most problems that I see, is when I get hired for a behavior consult and the "trainer" or owner is doing it all wrong. Good luck!


But I am not a trainer and I am still learning. I'm sure as I mature and grow in this "dog" world I will find better ways to train. My dog and I are a team and he's a "momma's boy"(never leaves my side). My trainer instructed me in training my dog and I listened and trust her and he turned out great.

Some behaviors cannot be ignored and that is what is mostly done in the "positive reinforcements". When a dog does something wrong your supposed to ignore the bahavior but some behaviors need corrections. I had dominant issues with my dog and he would get in my face and start barking because he was mad for some reason. I tried to ignore that behavior for a while until he started following me barking and growling until one day he bit me. That was the last straw and I refused to let him bite me again. So I corrected him for that kind of behavior.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I use positive reinforcement for most training, but this does NOT involve letting dogs run wild and behave like brats.

I run a tight ship around here. Dogs are expected to promptly do as they are told, and they do.

Just because one chooses to use positive reinforcement and less force during TRAINING does NOT mean that one ignores disrespectful bratty behavior.

I do not believe in using force or pain to TEACH something to a dog. I also don't find it necessary.

[Dobiegurl]

I use positive reinforcement for most training, but this does NOT involve letting dogs run wild and behave like brats.

I run a tight ship around here. Dogs are expected to promptly do as they are told, and they do.

Just because one chooses to use positive reinforcement and less force during TRAINING does NOT mean that one ignores disrespectful bratty behavior.
I do not believe in using force or pain to TEACH something to a dog. I also don't find it necessary.



I am talking about ALL positive and NO corrections.


I have always felt that dogs need praise so that they do not get bored with training and know what is right but some bad behaviors cannot be ignored like how I mentioned before how Chico used to bark at me and made it impossible to ignore. He had to be corrected for that behavior because he got really out of hand.

[SummerRiot]

NOT a good idea to have your show dog do protection work.

I actually looking into it with Riot.. and him being already iffy with strangers it wasn't a good plan..

Just remember.. even the police dogs that are WELL trained, turn on them.

[RedyreRottweilers]

DobieGirl, in my personal experience, all one thing does not tend to be a good approach to any sort of dog training. I don't know of anyone who patently ignores bad or disrespectful behavior of puppies in favor of exclusively postive training. NEGATIVE reinforcement does not have to equate to abusive training methods. A certain look, a verbal AH AH, or a certain physical stance in response to a dog or puppy can be an effective "negative" reinforcement. Almost all trainers who are successful use a combination of both.

SummerRiot, I have personally exhibited several dogs who were pretty hot on the sleeve, and who really enjoyed their work.

Never did I have a single issue with people approaching these dogs. With a CORRECTLY TEMPERAMENTED DOG, sleeve work is fun, and dogs learn to understand what constitutes a threat from a human.

A person walking up with a friendly attitude should not constitute a threat or present a problem for ANY properly trained dog.

JMO as always.

[Dobiegurl]

DobieGirl, in my personal experience, all one thing does not tend to be a good approach to any sort of dog training. I don't know of anyone who patently ignores bad or disrespectful behavior of puppies in favor of exclusively postive training. NEGATIVE reinforcement does not have to equate to abusive training methods. A certain look, a verbal AH AH, or a certain physical stance in response to a dog or puppy can be an effective "negative" reinforcement. Almost all trainers who are successful use a combination of both.

Thats what I've been trying to say. I believe in using a combination of both positive and negative but I think everyone misundestands what I mean by correction. I never said that correcting was harsh. I was mostly referring to verbal corrections. I think everyone is confusing harsh with firm. If Chico does something wrong I don't beat the crap out of him, I just simply say uh-uh and he stops. I've been trying to say from the beginning that you should use a combination of both.

[RedyreRottweilers]

You mention several times about trainers who in your opinion use nothing but positive, and who ignore/allow/do not correct at all any undesireable behaviors as a reason why YOU don't choose to use positive reinforcement training.

You never once mentioned using a combination of methods.

[Dobiegurl]

And don't think I don't praise him for good work because he gets alot of praise and he loves training. I just feel some dogs need a balance of both to be the best dogs they can be.

I said it right their that there is a balance and I never said I don't use postive training, I just said it did not work ONLY relying on positive training and I needed a combination of both. He gets both positive and negative consequences in training.

[amymarley]

I should have added that I do use correction, just positive correction. Just like children etc..., dogs have to be corrected and taught "how" to do something. I just don't do it to the point where the dog is broken (AND I am NOT saying ANYONE here does)... but I have heard horrible stories, mostly the "old school" training methods, which is not needed.

I have used my "training voice" and have used a corrective collar, but inserted postive behavior modification methods. I used a corrective collar to teach my lab/chow mix to heel for about 2 weeks, that was in 1995 (yes, he is still alive). I can walk him anywhere, ask him to heel, and he will heel like he was figure skating with me. What a great pooch!

[Dobiegurl]

I should have added that I do use correction, just positive correction. Just like children etc..., dogs have to be corrected and taught "how" to do something. I just don't do it to the point where the dog is broken (AND I am NOT saying ANYONE here does)... but I have heard horrible stories, mostly the "old school" training methods, which is not needed.

I have used my "training voice" and have used a corrective collar, but inserted postive behavior modification methods. I used a corrective collar to teach my lab/chow mix to heel for about 2 weeks, that was in 1995 (yes, he is still alive). I can walk him anywhere, ask him to heel, and he will heel like he was figure skating with me. What a great pooch!


I can understand the confusion but I never said I beat the crap out of my dog. When my dog does something wrong he gets a verbal correction and rarely a physical correction (I don't mean actually hitting him, just a collar correction). When he was younger and used to jump up on the counter I would grab him and put him on floor and say off. It was never harsh or abusive. I never once mentioned the old school training, which was horrible. I do not feel any correction is positive to a dog because they love to please and just a verbal correction can upset some dogs. But I have stated from the beginning that he needed guidance but also a reward every now and then to show him he's doing the right thing.

[Dobiegurl]

All animals need a from of correction when growing and maturing. For example: When puppies are still with their mother they get corrected. IF the puppy bit her to hard or just started to irritate the mom then she would grab his neck. The mom doesn't set out to hurt her pup its just a way of letting him know thats a no-no.

I'm sure as a trainer you see many ignorant people say well the only way my dog listens to me is if I beat the crap out of him, and you felt that that was what I meant. But far from it, I believe correction or punishment is not to hurt the dog, its just to let them know what is right and wrong. You should not set out to break your dogs spirit while correcting but some people think othewise and still rely on the old school methods, which are harsh and abusive. They have come up with more effective ways to train that does not lower your dogs confidence or make you be mean and cruel.

I think we all had a miscommunication. I thought you were a person who just ignored bad behavior and NEVER even said "no" to your dog (believe me, i have meet people who believe saying "no" to their dog is wrong) and you got the impression that I'm a phyco dog beater. I think that we both have the same idea as to where the dog does not need to have its spirit broken to learn and need praise, lots f praise, but they do need guidance that does not effect the dogs self esteem, and correcting your dog does not mean you have to inflict pain on them. Just a reminder that what they are doing is a no-no.

[Dobiegurl]

That is a very typical answer for people who don't know enough about positive training methods and operant conditioning yet. It was a topic that came up repeatedly at the last training seminar I attended and was discussed in great detail.

Believe me, it works on any kind of animal, from a (relatively dumb) chicken to highly intelligent dolphins and anything in between - that fact is scientifically proven. It's even used on people. :) You just need to find the correct approach and motivation for the individual in question and failure is generally a problem in applying the methods correctly and "getting the point across", not in the dog.

I read for example that you said your dog was getting too fixated on the treat - that is one example for wrong implementation of clicker training.

Positive training does not mean the dog is generally without guidance, "out of control" and is just running wild until it decides to listen for once and the trainer never interferes.

"Discipline" does not equal pain or discomfort. It means establishing a set of firm rules the dog is expected to live by and these do not require enforcement by yanking on the collar, hitting or worse. (To make it clear, I'm not saying you are doing this, it's just a general statement about certain training methods.)

I guess what I'm getting at is don't knock what you don't know. We all have our limitations and I'm sure I would think less highly of positive methods if I hadn't seen them applied and working to all kinds of dogs across the board, consistently. And I'm lucky to have an obedience instructor who firmly believes in these concepts and knows how to apply them - up to the highest levels of utility obedience.

I was not referring to the whole concept of operant conditioning. That is a broad idea of how animals learn and there are many things involved both positive and negative reinforcements. Punishment in this form of training should not be used as an abuser, just something that will make that behavior less likely in the future. I was referring to treats which is only one form of a primary reinforcer. Others can be a tug of war game or, like me, I just used a verbal reward that would have been considered the conditioned reinforcer but in my case was the primary reinforcer. The verbal reward was enough to keep Chico motivated because he loves pleasing me and as long as I let him know he was doing what I wanted he was going to keep doing it. There are many variables involved in operant conditioning and never doubted the concept just saying that all dogs will not respond to the same reinforcer (play, verbal, treats, verbal correction, ect) There are many techniques to enforce the good and eliminate the bad behaviors.