The Unthinkable has happened...

[gapeach]

Carey bit Maggie (our daughter) on the face yesterday. First of all Maggie is ok, she has a scrape over her eyelid and two on her cheek with some bruising. Next, those of you who don't know me, Carey is a fantastic dog. Yes she has food aggression and it was my fault. We bought Carey a treat ball for Christmas, she had been locked up earlier in the day (two baby gates in the kitchen, lots of space) because she has seperation anxiety and will tear things up. We had come back from my mom's (Carey too) and I had forgotten to pick up the treat ball from earlier that day, Carey picked it up and before I get get to them Maggie tried to take it, Carey dropped the ball and bit Maggie on the face. We struggled with the decision of putting her to sleep and have decided not to, she is a beloved part of our family. And a loving, protective dog. But we must make certain this never happens again. Carey has always been very dominant, at times trying me, by not letting go of a toy or such. When Maggie gets to rough, she does a low grunt or growl. She has nipped at Maggie before as a warning, but in no way did I ever think she would bite her like she has. My problem is, we have to find a way to show Carey that even though Maggie is smaller, she is dominant over Carey. Those of you who know, please advise us on how to do this. I must also say that we have always taught Maggie to be gentle with animals, but she is very high spirited and like any two year old doesn't listen sometimes. She is punished and sits in time out but still has lots of learning to do in this area. Please Help!

[Doberluv]

She has nipped at Maggie before as a warning, but in no way did I ever think she would bite her like she has. Why not? Once a dog warns or bites and finds out it works, she's more likely to bite again, and you may not get so lucky next time. (I'm so glad your daughter was not severely wounded or killed)

I strongly advise you to find a certified and reputable behaviorist who uses fair and unharsh methods to modify this dog's behavior as well as your own. There is clearly a leadership problem here, where your dog does not know it's place in your family. Once it gets to the point where your dog is biting, you need professional help. It is not safe for you to rely on help from the Internet.

I doubt that it is necessary to put the dog down, but you might consider finding a home with someone who is really in the know about how to handle this situation. I know you love your dog, but if you don't get help and this escalates, you may have to resort to putting her down and that is not in the dog's best interest as long as there is a possibility of re-habilitating her and turning this around. It has a very good chance of escalating to a more severe bite next time. Please be careful.

[Gempress]

I agree with doberluv about finding a good behaviorist immediately. I think that the problem is fixable, with time and patience. In the meantime, really start using NILF and spending more time on obedience training.

But I do not agree with rehoming Carey. It is not a good idea to rehome a dog with any type of aggression problem. You can be held liable if the new owners are bitten/injured. As sad as this may sound, you should have Carey euthanized if the training does not work.

I feel so bad for you. :( I've been in that situation. I really hope you find a good trainer, because I think that Carey can get over this.

[Julie]

Carey bit Maggie (our daughter) on the face yesterday. First of all Maggie is ok, she has a scrape over her eyelid and two on her cheek with some bruising. Next, those of you who don't know me, Carey is a fantastic dog. Yes she has food aggression and it was my fault. We bought Carey a treat ball for Christmas, she had been locked up earlier in the day (two baby gates in the kitchen, lots of space) because she has seperation anxiety and will tear things up. We had come back from my mom's (Carey too) and I had forgotten to pick up the treat ball from earlier that day, Carey picked it up and before I get get to them Maggie tried to take it, Carey dropped the ball and bit Maggie on the face. We struggled with the decision of putting her to sleep and have decided not to, she is a beloved part of our family. And a loving, protective dog. But we must make certain this never happens again. Carey has always been very dominant, at times trying me, by not letting go of a toy or such. When Maggie gets to rough, she does a low grunt or growl. She has nipped at Maggie before as a warning, but in no way did I ever think she would bite her like she has. My problem is, we have to find a way to show Carey that even though Maggie is smaller, she is dominant over Carey. Those of you who know, please advise us on how to do this. I must also say that we have always taught Maggie to be gentle with animals, but she is very high spirited and like any two year old doesn't listen sometimes. She is punished and sits in time out but still has lots of learning to do in this area. Please Help!

I guess I am just overly cautious with my children, but even if one of my dogs growled at my children I would not tolerate it. To me you got off lucky with this bite, but what if it happens again, but the next time leaves permanent scars? or worse......I love my dogs and I know you love Carey but our children have to be our first priority.....regardless.
And I see you are expecting....congrats.......but that will be yet another child to be cautious of.
I wish you the best, but I would have to say for me, rehoming would be my decision. Into a home without children. With someone very familar with dog behaviour. That would be hard to find.....but maybe some rescue organizations could help find one, if you change your mind of course.

Otherwise, just be very careful. Good Luck,
Julie.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Keep in mind that dogs bite in the face with INTENT TO HARM.

You need help and you need it now.

Meantime, ZERO access of dog to kid.

[kidsanddogs]

What a terrible situation you are in. I'm so sorry. However, I think you must be realistic. Two young children will be even more overwhelming for your dog and it's impossible to watch them all the time.

I have a very good friend who has two boys. She had an airedale terrier who had never shown any aggression. But one day, one of the children was crawling and cornered the dog. The dog lashed out and severely injured the boy's face. He needed more than 50 stitches and even now, at 24 years of age, he still has a scar. My friend loved that dog. They decided to give him to her parents, the grandparents of the children. That way, the dog was away from the children in a childless home, and when they went to visit Grandma, the dog was locked in a kennel outside. My friend could still see her dog whenever she wanted. It worked out ok.

Just my opinion, but I think it would be a mistake to keep Baxter around your baby. It's such a sad situation. I wish you good luck with your decision.

[brock23]

I have a nice bruise on my leg from getting in between Otto and my parents beagle this weekend over a food dispute. I socialized him with some little kids on Sunday and he did great, but I have the bite mark to prove that he still has some demons. I would not let him around kids right now without me being there standing directly over him though.

[corsomom]

I am sure you love your dog and feel bad for you but I think this is a disaster waiting to happen.personaly I would never keep a dog that bit my child in the face.Good luck to you with what you chose to do. Again I feel for you knowing that you love your dog.

[scob89]

I agree with doberluv about finding a good behaviorist immediately. I think that the problem is fixable, with time and patience. In the meantime, really start using NILF and spending more time on obedience training.

But I do not agree with rehoming Carey. It is not a good idea to rehome a dog with any type of aggression problem. You can be held liable if the new owners are bitten/injured. As sad as this may sound, you should have Carey euthanized if the training does not work.

I feel so bad for you. :( I've been in that situation. I really hope you find a good trainer, because I think that Carey can get over this.

I agree there. Find a trainer to work with Carey and not let him around your kid any more until the problem is fixed.

[tainted_870]

Everyone's going to disagree with what I say here, and I'm probably even going to get yelled at.

I don’t know much about dogs, but I know the basics. I too have a Ridgeback (and by the photos, I’m guessing that's what your dog is) and she has never gone for me, or anyone in my family.

I am nice to my dog, don’t get me wrong. But I don't take any sh*t from her either. The very first time my dog ever attempted to be aggressive towards me (to get her own way), I came down on her like a ton of bricks. She has never tried anything since, and she knows that our family (or me at least) are the dominant people in the 'pack'.

I agree in praising dogs and all when they are doing the right things, but it comes to some extent when you've got to show them that your not a complete pansy, otherwise they will walk all over you (and end up biting you, like yours did).

[casablanca1]

My problem is, we have to find a way to show Carey that even though Maggie is smaller, she is dominant over Carey.

I sympathize with your situation. The only way I can see to control the situation is to withdraw all food treats (since she's food aggressive, and yes, I know it's hard) and do the Wrath of God act if she looks crosseyed at anybody for any reason. She is way out of line, and the time for niceness or moderate behavior is past. You don't have to abuse her, but it is permissible to scare the living heck out of her.

Don't forget, though, it's not your children alone at risk from this behavior. Keeping Carey means always, always being on guard with her when she's around other people, especially other children.

[Renee750il]

I think Doberluv and Gempress have given you the best possible advice, especially as you already understand that food is the real heart of the issue, not a general reaction to small children.

[Doberluv]

When I mentioned re-homing, I didn't mean to just anyone. I stressed that it should be someone in the know about this and know how to work with it...someone who is made aware and is willing and able to train the dog. Someitmes rescues are good places to re-habilitate dogs.

Of course, this is a last resort and you'd hate to give up your dog. But your child's life, isn't worth risking and if you can't get help asap, well......if it were me, I'd get rid of the dog.

[Rubylove]

Whatever you do, don't treat this dog with any form of aggression. Aggression just begets aggression with dogs, and you will make it fear you, not respect you. Fear biting is an extremely common cause for injuries from dog bites.

You need to establish your dominance, and there are ways to do that. If you can find an animal behaviourist who specialised in Amichien Bonding, or other alpha-dog methods, that is what you want.

In the meantime, get the book, `The Dog Listener' by Jan Fennell. It will change your life with your dog to a huge extent before you get the trainer in. But let me stress, although I recommend this book to just about everybody I write a post to (lol) this is NOT going to be enough for you. It will teach you the basics and help you understand your dog's behaviour, but you need a professional to deal with this situation as your dog has already bitten your child once, and in the face at that.

Keep us posted, please, and best of luck.

[Rubylove]

Everyone's going to disagree with what I say here, and I'm probably even going to get yelled at.

I don’t know much about dogs, but I know the basics. I too have a Ridgeback (and by the photos, I’m guessing that's what your dog is) and she has never gone for me, or anyone in my family.

I am nice to my dog, don’t get me wrong. But I don't take any sh*t from her either. The very first time my dog ever attempted to be aggressive towards me (to get her own way), I came down on her like a ton of bricks. She has never tried anything since, and she knows that our family (or me at least) are the dominant people in the 'pack'.

I agree in praising dogs and all when they are doing the right things, but it comes to some extent when you've got to show them that your not a complete pansy, otherwise they will walk all over you (and end up biting you, like yours did).
And no, you won't get yelled at, but a little redirection might not hurt. :D You are only teaching your dog to fear you, not respect you, by being aggressive or violent with it. They don't understand this kind of treatment, and I wouldn't be surprised if your dog bites someone ELSE one day as a way of releasing its fear and stress. That is the most common scenario - it fears you, so, no, it doesn't think you're a pansy and it won't bite you, but it'll surely go for someone else one day unless you change your methods. There are many better ways to go than this, honestly, and your dog will love you and respect you a lot more for it.

[Doberluv]

Good advice from Rubylove. You never treat aggression with aggression. Being dominant that way is not the way dogs communicate or understand things. If you have problems with aggression, please seek professional help.

[lucille]

I guess I am just overly cautious with my children, but even if one of my dogs growled at my children I would not tolerate it. To me you got off lucky with this bite, but what if it happens again, but the next time leaves permanent scars? or worse......I love my dogs and I know you love Carey but our children have to be our first priority.....regardless.
And I see you are expecting....congrats.......but that will be yet another child to be cautious of.
I wish you the best, but I would have to say for me, rehoming would be my decision. Into a home without children. With someone very familar with dog behaviour. That would be hard to find.....but maybe some rescue organizations could help find one, if you change your mind of course.

Otherwise, just be very careful. Good Luck,
Julie.

I agree with Julie's reasoning.

[ARottMweilerY]

Well, I didn't See what happened so I can't really give training advise on this. But I can say my thoughts on this. I believe this to be a situation of Resource Guarding. Though you did mention her giving a warning to her before, was this also over a toy or food? Maybe you could explain that better? If it is only Resource Guarding, then I'd make sure to keep the kid and dog seperate during toy and food times (Including interactive toys of course). I do agree that you need to find a behaviourist / trainer in your area. Where are you located, maybe we can help you out with that. I do think this can be fixed, I'd deffinately try your best to get it fixed before anything else. Again I didn't see this, nore did anyone else, so I can't give you my total advice or anything. Good luck with this, I'm sorry to hear she was bitten, though the first time this happened there should have been something done with it instead of waiting for it to escalate this far. I also recommend the Nothing In Life Is Free Program.

~Amy~

[gapeach]

sorry I double posted

[gapeach]

After some more serious discussion between my husband and myself we have come to the conclusion that we won't be keeping Carey. It's too scary of a situation. We have no leadership problems here, as Carey has always (before I mentioned her not giving me the toy, but we solved that problem quite awhile back) known we were more dominant. But I suppose because Maggie is smaller she questions her place in the back. We never had Any problem with Maggie and Carey until recently. I don't understand why she is more aggressive towards Maggie, when a year ago they were rolling around on the floor together playing and Carey would let her do anything to her (although we didn't) Carey was also around small children growing up and had no issues. We would love to re home her but find that pretty unrealistic in our area, as the humane society has dogs that our being fostered indefinitely because they can't find homes for them. And we know we would have to put a stipulation on Carey's new home, no small children and no other pets. I just don't see that happening. And we will have her put to sleep before we'd just give her away to anyone. The people that you would think make good homes for a dog don't usually. I won't have her abused or thrown out in someone's back yard. There are some people I am going to call about re homing her but I don't have to high of hopes for it. I know ya'll are all gonna think it's terrible but we will probably have her put to sleep.The people who don't know me here don't understand how much we love this dog and some of you who do probably think we don't anymore. But we know in our hearts that we will be doing it out of her best interests. I have cried and cried over these decisions and am about to cry again now. We really could use some support and not bashing.

[jess2416]

I hope that you are able to find a good home for Carey. I really cant give an opinion or advice because I have never really been in the situation, but I do hope that everything works out for the best for you and your family and Carey

[bubbatd]

I know how this must have upset you all. I could never have owned a dog I could not thoughly trusted among my children or their visiting friends. As much as I love dogs, one bite and they'd be gone. I mean a bite as an attack. I'm sorry this has happened before the new one arrives..... but maybe it's for the best.

[sparks19]

You have to do whats best for your family. Who cares what other people think. I support your decision either way. Your children should ALWAYS come first and anyone who thinks that is irresponsible needs to give their head a shake. You are doing what is best for your children and I think that earns you a ton of respect. This is a tough decision to make. Don't let anyone make it any harder for you. You have my best wishes and (((((((HUGS))))))))

[gapeach]

Thank you Jess and Grammy, this has been very upseting for all of us. My husband was ready to put her down yesterday and I disagreed as I felt like it was my fault. But today the more I think about it the more I'm agreeing with James, I don't feel it is safe for Maggie anymore. And with this child coming I won't be able to pay as close attention.

[gapeach]

Thank you also Sparks, this is the hardest decision we have ever had to make, I hope they don't come any harder than this. Carey is like our first child but Maggie does come first. I just never expected this to happen and I don't understand what has changed her so, these past months.

[bubbatd]

Awww Gapeach ... I just saw your post. I know how this must pain you !!! Hopefully you can re-home. There are so many breeds I've always admired , but the safety of the kids come first. My husband always wanted a more " matcho" breed than a Golden before we had kids..... I was so afraid I'd be in your situation , I held out until I could get another Golden. I couldn't bear to think of what you're going through now. Big (((( HUGS )))) from Grammy.

[Doberluv]

A-w-w...I'm so sorry you're going through this. It has got to be the worst decision. But to tell you the truth, I'd be doing the same thing. I couldn't keep a dog who did that if I had children around. I'd never feel safe or comfortable. Things will get better for you and I'm sure he'll get a home where someone can turn him around who doesn't have kids around. That will be best for all. My thoughts are with you.

[gapeach]

Yes Grammy, it is heart breaking, Carey is our baby and our first dog together. We have no idea what breed she is because she was found as a tiny pup on the side of the road. I wish desperately that we could re home her, but I just don't see it happening and in the mean time it scares me to think it could happen again. The treat ball is in the trash and we have always made sure Maggie doesn't go in the kitchen when Carey is eating. But for some reason in the past few months she has just decided she is more dominant than Maggie, I wish someone could explain this to me. I am also reasonably sure that htere are no reputable dog trainers in our area to help us with this.

[gapeach]

Thank you for your support also doberluv. Maybe you could suggest why this would become an issue now rather than quite some time ago?

[bubbatd]

I really feel for you ..... it's so hard !!! ((((((((( HUGS ))))))))).

[juliefurry]

I am so sorry. I know how difficult this is for you. I have had to give up two dogs because they have bit Emily. Lily was so hard to let go of too and I still miss her but thankfully the people that have her now send me updates and pictures. I have to agree though that she should go to another home or be PTS if a trainer would not help you. I have to admit I still have a few doubts about Emily and the sheltie we have now, Foxy. He has only growled at her once but I am still so over protective of her with him, more so than I am with Hannah as I feel Hannah would not hurt a fly and truly loves Emily (I'm not saying your dog doesn't love your daughter though). I would just be very watchful until you decide what is going to be done. Any decision will be hard but you have to know it is best for your family your kids need to come first. I would first talk to your vet and a trainer and see what they have to say before making any permanent decisions. I am not a dog expert but I would do what had to be done to keep my children safe.

[opokki]

Dogs reach social maturity between 18-36 months of age, depending on Carey's age this could account for some of the changes you have recently noticed in her behavior. Also, a 2yr old child is much more active/mobile than a 1yr old...I imagine that these changes in the childs activity and development could also have an effect on Carey's behavior towards the child.
Unfortunately, when children are bitten it is usually in the face because they tend to be at or near eye level with many dogs.

I'm very sorry for the situation you are in but I understand. And I agree that a dog that resource guards is quite risky with small children in the home.

[Rubylove]

Yes Grammy, it is heart breaking, Carey is our baby and our first dog together. We have no idea what breed she is because she was found as a tiny pup on the side of the road. I wish desperately that we could re home her, but I just don't see it happening and in the mean time it scares me to think it could happen again. The treat ball is in the trash and we have always made sure Maggie doesn't go in the kitchen when Carey is eating. But for some reason in the past few months she has just decided she is more dominant than Maggie, I wish someone could explain this to me. I am also reasonably sure that htere are no reputable dog trainers in our area to help us with this.
You poor thing, you must be beside yourself this is awful.

Can I suggest, though, that you really DON'T put him down?? I would try the options at your disposal first, in terms of rehoming, and then if you can't, please take him to a reputable shelter, even if you have to go a ways to find one. They screen people and look for the best possible home - I would try the ASPCA, they are excellent at rehoming, plus, they won't rehome until they have trained bad traits out of dogs.

You will be saving your dog's life, if you are prepared to do this, and you love him dearly, so I'm sure you will at least consider this advice.

[Doberluv]

Thank you for your support also doberluv. Maybe you could suggest why this would become an issue now rather than quite some time ago?

Most behavior problems like this are caused by a dog not having a clear enough picture of where he stands in the scheme of the social order. They are designed to operate within a heirarchy, albeit domestic dogs aren't quite like wolves and we are not exactly like a pack. It is something like that.

Sometimes people are sure their dogs know they're in charge because they see no challenges or problems from their dog. It can go along just fine as long as everything is going along smoothly for the dog. But when one thing comes up that isn't what he wants, is important enough to him to do something about, he suddenly reacts in a way that a subordinate animal does not, but a middle ranking one does. He challenges. Middle ranking animals will challenge other middle ranking animals, but won't challenge the leader. If the dog doesn't have an absolutely clear picture that there is a strong leader, he will take it upon himself to make these decisions.

Your child presented to the dog something not approved of by the dog and he took it into his own hands to deal with the situation in his own way, rather than leaving it up to you. That is because he saw himself as right up there, in charge, since to him, you are a middle rank....where as he should be leaving any and all decisions like that (how to handle the child getting his stuff) up to you. The leader handles all those kinds of decisions. A subordinate does not.

Now, I could have this wrong because I didn't see what happened exactly. Or I might have it wrong anyhow. These are my suspicions.

Sometimes too, dogs view children as prey and their hunting instincts kick in. This is not very common, I don't think in a family setting, especially if the child wasn't running or moving. But it is a possibility. It does sound like a guarding issue....guarding his toy. But again, resource guarding is a leadership conflict in the dog. Sure, he may not view a child as a leader, but within the family....again, he should be knowing his place enough to know that it is you who makes those decisions and solves those problems of his.

I am not wanting to sound bashing or critical. So please don't take it that way. This kind of thing can sneak up on people very, very easily. You are not alone. When dogs whine for attention and we turn and acknoweldge them, we are reacting to their acting. When they want things, push at us for affection all the time etc....and we react, they are getting a message that they are calling the shots and we are following along with them. They are acting. We are reacting. This can contribute to a lack of leadership of our dogs.

Some people make the mistake of thinking that harshness and sterness is what makes a good strong leader. It does not. Controlling resources and decision making is part of what makes a leader to a dog. Leaders act. Followers react.

I had a dog when I had babies and toddlers, a GSD...never had an inkling of anything like that from him. I even had daycare at that time. The GSD licked the babies, was gentle and couldn't care less if someone took something, stepped on his toe....absolutely trustworthy. He even would shoulder them closer to the house when we were all outside playing. That protective, herding instinct kicked in. Went sledding with them, never chased or hurt them. He loved the kids. He knew somehow that there was no way on earth that he was in a position to make decisions like that about his stuff or anything else.

So, something went wrong here. It may not be anything that you did. It could be a temperament issue. It's impossible to say for sure. I hope someone can straighten him out....someone without kids so less risky. I really don't think he should be put down. I think he could very easily be straightened out. He just needs to be shown where he belongs in his family. With some dogs, it's not as easy as others, but someone very experienced could fix him up. I just am really quite sure of it.

I sure am sorry about this. And don't blame yourself. This is something that sneaks up on people a lot. It can be turned around. But I think it needs a very experienced dog trainer/handler to work with. And you can't risk your kids safety.

I wish you the best.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I have to say I would not rehome this dog.

The chance that she might bite another child in the face is too high. It is difficult if not impossible to totally insulate a dog from any contact with children.

Consider as well that in the event you rehome the dog, EVEN if you make full disclosure and make the new owners sign a waiver and agreement to hold you harmless in the event the dog bites again, you CAN be held liable if the dog bites and injures someone.

If it were my dog it would not have seen the sun go down the day it bit my kid.

[Doberluv]

Well, Redyre....I guess I tend to agree with you there. It is really a dangerous thing. I'm picturing some trainer....rehabilitator keeping this dog and turning things around. But you're right. If it got into a home where kids were or the person really wasn't able to manage the dog, it would be a big risk. Once he's bitten, he has found out that it works and it is more likely he'll bite again. It's a shame....that's for sure.

[Julie]

After some more serious discussion between my husband and myself we have come to the conclusion that we won't be keeping Carey. It's too scary of a situation. We have no leadership problems here, as Carey has always (before I mentioned her not giving me the toy, but we solved that problem quite awhile back) known we were more dominant. But I suppose because Maggie is smaller she questions her place in the back. We never had Any problem with Maggie and Carey until recently. I don't understand why she is more aggressive towards Maggie, when a year ago they were rolling around on the floor together playing and Carey would let her do anything to her (although we didn't) Carey was also around small children growing up and had no issues. We would love to re home her but find that pretty unrealistic in our area, as the humane society has dogs that our being fostered indefinitely because they can't find homes for them. And we know we would have to put a stipulation on Carey's new home, no small children and no other pets. I just don't see that happening. And we will have her put to sleep before we'd just give her away to anyone. The people that you would think make good homes for a dog don't usually. I won't have her abused or thrown out in someone's back yard. There are some people I am going to call about re homing her but I don't have to high of hopes for it. I know ya'll are all gonna think it's terrible but we will probably have her put to sleep.The people who don't know me here don't understand how much we love this dog and some of you who do probably think we don't anymore. But we know in our hearts that we will be doing it out of her best interests. I have cried and cried over these decisions and am about to cry again now. We really could use some support and not bashing.

I think you are thinking logically and with your head!! I would do the same thing if a suitable home can't be found in a short time. Like I said before, If my dogs would as much as growl at my kids, It would not be tolerated. The children come first regardless.:)


Redrye,
Your posts always make so much sense.:)
I love reading them.

[casablanca1]

After some more serious discussion between my husband and myself we have come to the conclusion that we won't be keeping Carey. It's too scary of a situation...I know ya'll are all gonna think it's terrible but we will probably have her put to sleep.The people who don't know me here don't understand how much we love this dog and some of you who do probably think we don't anymore. But we know in our hearts that we will be doing it out of her best interests. I have cried and cried over these decisions and am about to cry again now. We really could use some support and not bashing.

I'm not going to bash, and I fully support euthanizing a dangerous dog.
But... have you considered changing your training methods? Not all approaches work with all dogs and, with all due respect, whatever you've been doing hasn't worked with this dog. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but some dogs just need more discipline.

I'm very sorry for your situation, and I apologize if I've misread it. I only mean to throw out an idea, not make assumptions based on little information.

[Doberluv]

I'm all for positive reinforcement, but some dogs just need more discipline.

I don't know what you mean by positive reinforcement or discipline.... but training methods based on operant conditioning learning theory ARE discipline. Discipline means to teach. It does not punishment. And most trainers/behaviorists do not use punishment as a way to teach a dog anything. Perhaps what you mean by discipline is leadership or assertiveness. All dogs need a clear leader, but that is not in conflict with motivation and reward training methods. The two go very much together.

I just wanted to clarify that so that anyone reading this wouldn't think that "positive" method training equals not teaching or no discipline. And that it does not equal not having a clear leader and effective communication between dog and owner. If anyone thinks this, then they don't have the whole story on the training thing or how interaction between dog and owner plays a huge role. Punishment has no place in training. (Not just my opinion either.)

[Fran27]

But... have you considered changing your training methods? Not all approaches work with all dogs and, with all due respect, whatever you've been doing hasn't worked with this dog. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but some dogs just need more discipline.

I'm very sorry for your situation, and I apologize if I've misread it. I only mean to throw out an idea, not make assumptions based on little information.

Frankly, in my (limited) experience, scaring or punishing the dog just makes matters worse. I totally sympathize with Gapeach, because Boris has acted the same way towards us, just growling but he did try to bite when my husband started disciplining him (mostly taking him by the collar to put him in the crate), so it just made things worse for us...

[pug_mommie]

I have to say I would not rehome this dog.

The chance that she might bite another child in the face is too high. It is difficult if not impossible to totally insulate a dog from any contact with children.

Consider as well that in the event you rehome the dog, EVEN if you make full disclosure and make the new owners sign a waiver and agreement to hold you harmless in the event the dog bites again, you CAN be held liable if the dog bites and injures someone.

If it were my dog it would not have seen the sun go down the day it bit my kid.

No offense, but a former owner of an animal CANNOT be held liable if the dog - now owned by someone else - bites another person. There is no need for 'waivers' or 'hold harmless' agreements either...
That being said, the dog in this case reacted because the child took its treat away - this does NOT sound like an overly aggressive dog, just one who was not properly trained. Euthanizing the dog should be the LAST option that these people try! At least give the dog a chance at living! People who have animals rarely contemplate the effect that having a child will have on the animal. There are plenty of dog trainers and behavioralists out there who can help, if they really want to take the time to work with the dog.

[Gempress]

No offense, but a former owner of an animal CANNOT be held liable if the dog - now owned by someone else - bites another person.

Unfortunately, yes you can. If you knew the dog was dangerous, then rehomed him, you can be held liable.

[pug_mommie]

Unfortunately, yes you can. If you knew the dog was dangerous, then rehomed him, you can be held liable.

This incident hardly qualifies to make the dog dangerous, and I am speaking specifically to THIS situation. And I guess these posts are not being clear as to WHO is holding the previous owner liable - a third party who was bitten while the dog was in the control the new owner?

[Saje]

It's a hypothetical situation and as far as I know if a dog with a history of biting is rehomed the new owners can hold the previous owners responsible for anything that might happen. If that home has children adn the dog isn't properly trained it's likely to happen again.

[Doberluv]

This incident hardly qualifies to make the dog dangerous, and I am speaking specifically to THIS situation.

I respectfully disagree. Anytime a dog bites, it qualifies for being dangerous. Anytime a dog bites for whatever reason, it is much more likely to re-offend, often more severely and often for other reasons. Dogs learn what works and behavior is reinforced. I'm not saying that it is not possible to re-habilitate the dog if in the right hands... I do, however agree that this original poster who has small children is doing the right thing by not keeping the dog. I would not keep a dog whom I could not trust around children or anyone for that matter. It would be nice if there were an experienced trainer or behaviorist who was able to rehabilitate the dog, who was wanting to keep the dog for their own and who had no children. That would be the last ditch effort I could imagine, otherwise, unfortunately, the dog may have to be euthanized. Dogs are capable of maiming and killing and it's just not worth the risk.

Hey....how about Ceasar Milan? He could add the dog to his big pack. He seems to be able to handle some of these things, even though I don't agree with all of his methods. He sure does seem to help a lot of dogs.

[Julie]

This incident hardly qualifies to make the dog dangerous, and I am speaking specifically to THIS situation. And I guess these posts are not being clear as to WHO is holding the previous owner liable - a third party who was bitten while the dog was in the control the new owner?

Did you read all the posts? What in your mind would make the dog dangerous? Would the dog have to bite the little girl so severely that she would be hospitilized and scarred? This was a warning....heed it.

The next time might be "dangerous" in your eyes. But then it is too late.

And I am speaking of only THIS situation/incident. Not any hypothetical situations.





Don't worry about what anyone else thinks, just do what is best for your whole family. You will get support from us. Those that understand the difficulty of trusting/training a dog that has already bit your daughter, and the importance of your daughter (the ultimate). Nobody here has to live with the stress you will have to go through if the dog stays in your family. We all know you love Carey, and that does not diminish if your common sense tells you to do something that some people will just not understand.

I have thought of you alot, and I wish you the very best.
Julie.

[jess2416]

I hope everything is going alright I just noticed they havent posted in the last page or so....:(
I know this has gotta be a very hard decision and I hope I will never have to make it.

[pug_mommie]

Did you read all the posts? What in your mind would make the dog dangerous? Would the dog have to bite the little girl so severely that she would be hospitilized and scarred? This was a warning....heed it.

The next time might be "dangerous" in your eyes. But then it is too late.

And I am speaking of only THIS situation/incident. Not any hypothetical situations.





Don't worry about what anyone else thinks, just do what is best for your whole family. You will get support from us. Those that understand the difficulty of trusting/training a dog that has already bit your daughter, and the importance of your daughter (the ultimate). Nobody here has to live with the stress you will have to go through if the dog stays in your family. We all know you love Carey, and that does not diminish if your common sense tells you to do something that some people will just not understand.

I have thought of you alot, and I wish you the very best.
Julie.

The dog is obviously NOT comfortable living with small children - and there are many dogs that are not. That doesn't mean that the dog is 'dangerous', it just means that it shouldn't live in a home with small children. It certainly doesn't mean that an otherwise good animal should be euthanized. Also, I am speaking of a situation where a NEW owner is seeking to hold a prior owner liable for the dog's behavior.
I am certainly not suggesting that this mother keep her pet, but I am suggesting that the dog is not necessarily too dangerous to live. Euthanasia should be the last resort. I do not mean to offend anyone, but there are clearly other options that will be less painful for Carey, and her family.

[sparks19]

The dog is obviously NOT comfortable living with small children - and there are many dogs that are not. That doesn't mean that the dog is 'dangerous', it just means that it shouldn't live in a home with small children. It certainly doesn't mean that an otherwise good animal should be euthanized. Also, I am speaking of a situation where a NEW owner is seeking to hold a prior owner liable for the dog's behavior.
I am certainly not suggesting that this mother keep her pet, but I am suggesting that the dog is not necessarily too dangerous to live. Euthanasia should be the last resort. I do not mean to offend anyone, but there are clearly other options that will be less painful for Carey, and her family.

So what happens if the dog decides that its not only children that bother her but all people who might take away her treats. You know she is not going to trust her new owners right away (were she to be rehomed) They will not know her very well and she will not know them. She has already bitten once. now that she is stressed out and with people she doesn't know what is to stop her from biting to get her way then? Do you think it is ever appropriate for a dog to bite a child? Whether she was near the treat or not? How long must she keep the dog while she looks for a suitable home for her? what is she to do with the dog in that time? Hope that this doesn't happen again? I think not. This is a time sensitive issue and it sounds wonderful to say that she should look for a new home but it just isn't possible in this situation.

[Julie]

The dog is obviously NOT comfortable living with small children - and there are many dogs that are not. That doesn't mean that the dog is 'dangerous', it just means that it shouldn't live in a home with small children. It certainly doesn't mean that an otherwise good animal should be euthanized. Also, I am speaking of a situation where a NEW owner is seeking to hold a prior owner liable for the dog's behavior.
I am certainly not suggesting that this mother keep her pet, but I am suggesting that the dog is not necessarily too dangerous to live. Euthanasia should be the last resort. I do not mean to offend anyone, but there are clearly other options that will be less painful for Carey, and her family.

Well since we really don't know the whole story you can't really say that. Does the dog growl at the little girls parents when they try to take a bone away? Does Carey growl when adults get right up in her food bowl? Maybe the parents know not to do that, and the little girl just didn't know what could happen. And maybe you are right the only aggression is with children. But it still seems "more" than, not comfortable with children.
This dog bit a person in the face, that is dangerous.
I have also said possible rehoming in this thread, but there is a very small chance of finding someone experienced enough and willing to adopt this dog. He cannot go to any home. There are alot of "unknowing" people that might be willing to adopt, but that would just be an accident waiting to happen.

This sounds more like resource guarding (food aggression) than not feeling comfortable around children.
Regardless it is still dangerous. Maybe only when you do something he doesn't like, but still dangerous.

[juliefurry]

I would definetely say if the dog (Carey) is biting to get rid of the dog. I ran across the same problem with our old pitbull mix. He bit me and I felt sorry and didn't want to give up on him and took him back in. Unfortunetely the second time he bit that was it I could not trust a dog like that around kids. Gapeach, I think you should talk to your vet and also a trainer about these issues just to make you at ease that you did do everything that you could possibly do to keep Carey. Also talk to local animal shelters and explain the situation some will try to work with the dog or atleast adopt the dog out to a suitable home. Although if you feel euthanizea is the best option than it probably is. It is hard to come to that decision but ultimately would you rather your dog go to the shelter and then be put down or would you rather take the dog in yourself so you can be with Carey before Carey goes? I would have wanted to be with my pit mix when he was PTS but unfortunetely I couldn't be with him and he was PTS at the shelter with noone around him that was familiar to him and I felt so bad.

[gapeach]

Carey will be put to sleep at 9:30 am tomorrow morning. It was the hardest decison we have ever had to make. I called a personal friend of mine that helps run the Humane Society here, she also believes we are doing the right thing. Unfortunately where we live there are very limited options. The chance of her finding a home suitable for her, no children, no other pets is nonexistant and that it would take an unknown amount of time, the foster dogs they have in families have been living with them for years. And we just can't wait that long. I was also told that her breed look (since noone knows what she truly is) is the hardest to place, even without her aggression. My friend also told me that the closest trainer who is reputable to deal with aggression is in Macon, they have contacted him on dogs they have had before and he will not come to our town (she didn't give me reasons why)

We got Carey six years ago when we began trying to have children and found it difficult. She has been our first dog and baby together. This is breaking our hearts but I have tried all our resources (be them very limited) to no avail. We have to think of our children first. I love this dog beyond belief but I do believe she may try this again and I just can't take my children's lives at risk that way. I have been trying to look at it as positively as possible, we adopted her six years ago, if we wouldn't have taken her, she would have gone to the pound and most likely been put down then. We gave her six years to live as part of our family, taking her places, playing with her, loving her as much as we do. She has had a wonderful life with us. I'm so unbelievably sorry it has to end this way, however I feel she could have been alot worse off. I gave her a bath, blow dried and brushed her today, because she has always loved to get it done. Tomorrow my mom will pick Maggie up and take her home with her so we can spend some time with just Carey. Throwing her kong for her and running around outside. I will try to explain to her that although what she did was wrong, she has been the most loving, protective dog and we will always love her and never think she was a "bad" dog. When we go to the vet, my husband and I will both be by her side while she goes to sleep. And we will cry together for her.

[Rubylove]

I'm so sorry for your loss *hugs*

[corsomom]

I am so sorry. She had a wonderful life with you.

[jess2416]

aww I am sooo sorry you have to go through this ((((HUGS)))) but at least carey got to spend her time with a family that truly cared for her. I will keep you and your family in my thoughts as you go through this difficult time.

[BigDog2191]

I'm so SORRY! :(

[Doberluv]

Gapeach,

I am so very sorry for what you're having to do. But I think it's the only choice you have. Regardless of why the dog bit, he did and he would be a huge risk. You're doing the right thing and the only thing you can do. You gave him 6 great years and that's more than a lot of dogs get. In time, your pain will ease up.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[Zoom]

Gapeach, words cannot express how badly I feel for you, your husband and Carey right now. You are on the right path though, take comfort in the fact that you gave her the best 6 years a dog could wish for. I'm tearing up right now just reading all this and send you as many hugs as will fit through the bandwidth.

[Carolyn]

Sorry to take so long in replying, as I have been reading this post from top to right here where I am now.

I am not going to give any comments or thoughts, but am just going to say, you have my best healing vibes coming your way. I feel for what you and your family are going through. A totally heart wrenching decision was made, by you and your husband as intelligent, caring adults.

Your children come first, and Carey has, by the sounds of it had a wonderful life with you all.

I will spare thoughts for you, and I wish you all the very best

Keep your heads held high, be strong. You are great human and doggy parents


Good thoughts

Carolyn

[casablanca1]

What a terrible situation. Unfortunately, sometimes you have few options. Finding a new home for a dog who's bitten a child is very hard.

[Giny]

Aw, such a sad and heartbreaking thing to go through. Just wanted to let you know that I'm there for you and I do think you're doing the right thing. *HUGS*

[casablanca1]

I don't know what you mean by positive reinforcement or discipline.... Punishment has no place in training. (Not just my opinion either.)

Frankly, in my (limited) experience, scaring or punishing the dog just makes matters worse.

It's a bit rude to assume that I'm in favor of abusing dogs just because I used the word 'discipline.'

[RedyreRottweilers]

Keeping you in my thoughts today.

May your spirit have wings, ^Carey^.

[Doberluv]

It's a bit rude to assume that I'm in favor of abusing dogs just because I used the word 'discipline.'

Just trying to make sure that people with aggression problems don't try to cure aggression by using punishment of any kind. It is well documented that punishment is the wrong tactic to use with aggression.

The word, discipline is very OFTEN misused or misunderstood...very common....to imply some kind of punishment rather than simply to teach....(it's actual meaning.)

This isn't about you Cassablanca. This is about a dog with an aggression issue. My interest is not in how you deal with your dogs. My interest is in preventing further damage in a particular situation. And when I read something where someone is promoting what may be construed or interpreted as a viable way of treating a dangerous dog, I feel a need to clarify. That is why I wrote what I did about the meanings of words.

This thread is about some people who have to put their dog down due to aggression. They must be feeling awful. They've got to feel much worse, much more heart broken... than how you feel in your perception of my opinon of whether or not you abuse your dog. I hope you'll forgive me and my cautious ways.

[tainted_870]

Geez Im sorry. For all its worth I think she had a bit of ridgeback in her (I remember you saying you were unsure on her breed). When my ridgeback was a puppy, she looked just like the one in your pic, and she still looks quite similar to the more recent photos. But yeah, looks a lot like a Ridgback. I am sorry.

[sparks19]

Casablanca shame on you for making this about you. I am sorry but this is NOT the place to do that. This is a thread for prayers and well wishes and condolences.


GAPeach, I am so sorry. I hope you had a wonderful morning with Carey and gave her some wonderful memories to take with her to the Rainbow Bridge. I am trying so hard not to let the tears flow right now. What a tragedy you have had to deal with. Just know that Carey is happy and you gave her what she needed. A loving family, a warm bed at night, and all the love any dog could ever hope for.

[joce]

I'm so sorry:( It cna be such a hard decision to make. I'm sure you guys had a great time together and she would have never picked a place other than with you.

Our frineds went through this about six months ago and it was jsut heartbreaking. there dog was a golden,a dog you would expect to be nice,and it was jsut plain mena. At least for them there wasn't a question about it though. they knew what they had to do. I jsut want to strangle the people that breed theses dogs that end up like this. We love them to death but at a point there is nothing else you can do. they still miss shelby and finally got to the pont were they know for sure they did the right thing but its still hard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/joceboo/100_1621.jpg
That was her. While she looked like a sweetie and they could ahve rehomed her if she was acting ok at the moment,they just couldn't put anyone else in danger. Just remember she loved you and you idd what you could for her.

[gapeach]

First of all thank you from the bottom of my heart for your warm thoughts. I have made a new thread about Carey as she is still with us.

[B33CPE]

I am going through what carey's owner is going through right now, my pit/chow mix (looks a lot like carey) that i have had since she was a pup is very food agressive and i have tried everything to stop her, she is also very nervous around my one year old, she hasnt bit him yet but i believe that she could so i am going to send her to live with my parents because i can not take the chance that she wont bite him. No matter how much you love you dog your kids and family should always come first, any dog that bites a kid , especially your own kid, needs to be put down, how are you going to feel is she does it again and doesnt just leave a scrape, next time she could kill your daughter, Really think, is this dog really worth your childs life? It kills me to send my dog away i will probably cry for weeks but you gotta do what you gotta do. Sometimes you can do everything in your power to make a dog a good dog, but its not always possible.
This is just my opinion, i am not trying to upset anyone, its your decision.

[Saje]

B33 there is a newer thread for you to follow if you want an update.

[B33CPE]

Thanks saje

[doberkim]

Keep in mind that dogs bite in the face with INTENT TO HARM.

You need help and you need it now.

Meantime, ZERO access of dog to kid.
im going to disagree with this -- dogs bite kids in the face mostly because of where the childs face is --- at their level. most dogs cannot get to an adults face quickly if they wanted to bite - they normally get arms/hands.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Face/head/neck bites are kill bites.

I stand by my previous post.

[Doberluv]

I agree with Redyre. A child's face is right there, right at the level of the dog's face (teeth) and it's very dangerous. Personally, I'd be very nervous with this dog around my small child. If there is to be any interaction with the child and the dog, I would hold the child and keep him high up...above the dog's level and turned sideways to the dog, never facing or giving eye contact to the dog. I'd be giving the dog some orders to sit, down and then letting the child toss a treat down to the dog.

Actually....if it were me, and I had a two year old child, I wouldn't be brave enough to keep a dog who had bitten, no matter what the circumstances. I get this opinion after having small children and dogs who tolerated most happily, much worse than messing around his toy or food. They wouldn't have bitten any child for the world. They were very agreeable and trustworthy around my kids and friends of my kids. Anything was just fine with them...that was my GSD and Lab.

Whatever you decide, I support you and hope and pray that this behaviorist has a good prognosis for your dog. Just be careful.

[gapeach]

The trainer I talked to also stated that if Carey meant to hurt our child she would have. It was meant as a warning. A child's face is at the level of the dog's face. She has always been a wonderful dog and has always loved all children, playing very well with them. We just didn't keep up with her obedience wise and she is a pushy dog. Slowly she has decided that she is more dominant in our family than our daughter, this and the food aggression are the things that need to be corrected with the help of a trainer. Belive me we have agonized long and hard over this decision and if we at all thought Carey was a threat to our daughter she would not be here. We do still allow them to play together, although much more supervised than before (they have always been supervised) I have been working on obedience with her and this really seems to be helping. As soon as we can get her shot records from our old vet and get her distemper shots we will be working with the trainer.

[JennSLK]

God luck

[Doberluv]

Oh yes. I am sure that if she wanted to really kill, she would have bitten way more severely. I agree with that. It's just that small kids are right at the worst level, as far as being right in front of the dog's face.

I do hope this trainer can help. Best of luck!

[Spikestrike]

oh im so sry for you

[gapeach]

Thanks everyone. Carey's shot records should be transferred today and then we can move along in this process.

[jess2416]

Good Luck :) I hope everything goes well :)

[Calamity Kate]

Sorry, I am going to be unpopular here but....... one way or the other, the dog has to go. It has bitten your daughter's FACE. I am a dog lover but I love my children more and I am sure you are the same. How will you feel if it happens again? How can you EVER trust the dog around your children again? Next time (and I bet you dollars to doughnuts there will be a next time) it might be her throat. Sorry to be so doom and gloomy but for goodness sake, child versus animal? No contest. However much you love your dog, people are more important, always. Especially children.

[Barb04]

I wish you and Carey all the best with the trainer. Please keep us updated on how she's doing.

[B33CPE]

Sorry, I am going to be unpopular here but....... one way or the other, the dog has to go. It has bitten your daughter's FACE. I am a dog lover but I love my children more and I am sure you are the same. How will you feel if it happens again? How can you EVER trust the dog around your children again? Next time (and I bet you dollars to doughnuts there will be a next time) it might be her throat. Sorry to be so doom and gloomy but for goodness sake, child versus animal? No contest. However much you love your dog, people are more important, always. Especially children.


More people need to be like you, kids get killed by dogs because their parents keep dogs that are known to be aggressive. whether it was a "kill" bite or a "warning" bite doesnt matter a bite is a bite.

[gapeach]

Noone understands the fact that my child does come first, I am a stay at home mom, trust be my daughter's interests come before anything else. However as I have stated many times before Carey has always been a wonderful dog, especially with children. She is not people aggressive, she loves everyone she meets. We will be working with a behavior trainer on fixing the resource guarding and getting her back in her place in our family. It was a food issue, we do not allow Maggie in the room with Carey while she eats anymore. It's not child versus animal, it's modifying the behavior. You do not know my dog she loves Maggie with all her heart and was treating her as a lower member of our pack, not as a someone to hurt. The two are much more supervised now (they were supervised before also) The food was the issue, not her wanting to attack my child.

[RedyreRottweilers]

http://www.buybelowcost.com/smclassifiedspro/graemlins/lipseal.gif

[meadow36]

Where is the "other thread"? I didn't see it on the training forum. I'd like to follow along on Carey's progress.

[Carolyn]

Hiya Gapeach how are things going? I don't think anyone is meaning to upset you. I know this must be a horrible heart wrenching time, and very stressful on all of you.

It's just everyone has their own thoughts of what they would do in this situation. I too would not be keeping this dog, she would be euthanased if she were mine. But thats the thing, she isn't mine. We all respect the fact that it's your family and your dog, and you and your family must do what you think is best.

Just try to bear in mind though that we all care, about dogs and people too, especially children :) I don't believe it's downing you in the slightest, rather peoples strong emotions on such an issue. Asking advice on issues like this can bring very strong heated emotions.

All I'm saying is just remember we are all here to help, and because someone has a differing view or choice on what they would do, doesn't mean they are trying to upset you on purpose :)

I wish you all the best, and hope you will keep us updated on your progress, no matter WHAT the end result has to be

Carolyn

[B33CPE]

Hi Gapeach, i have posted on this thread before and i just wanted to say that i never meant to upset you. It just really angers me when a child gets killed or badly hurt by a dog because the parents are irresponsible, and I think that you are totally being responsible. Good luck.

[Nerual]

I am not posting this with the intent to push you in any direction regarding Carey, I just want to share with you the story of my beloved dog Mia.

I first saw Mia at the local animal shelter's Adopt-a-Thon weekend where I was volunteering with my 4-H group. She was a beautiful 4 year old, 97 pound St. Bernard/Collie Mix. I fell in love with her and after talking with her owner for over 2 hours I decided that she would fit right into my family and I took her home. Over the next few weeks it became apparent that Mia had severe aggression issues with other dogs, but I had always believed that if you adopt a dog, you adopt all of their issues too. If you would have asked my opinion before I got Mia, I would have told you that I would never put a dog to sleep unless they were in extreme physical pain.

We immediately started working with a trainer on Mia's aggression issues, and although it was always one step foreward and two steps back, she was always devoted to my family including my 3 year old sister, and loved everybody regardless of size or age.

Then, one day I was taking her on a walk and we saw one of my little sister's friends who had met Mia on many previous occasions. But this time was different, the boy bent down in her face and started to growl like a dog and before I could pull Mia back she lunged at his face. Although she did not bite down hard, he had marks above his eyelid and under his chin (if she had bit down, he would have no face left). At this point in my heart I knew that something was wrong, but I was in denial and blamed it on the boy growling like a dog and told myself that Mia didn't mean it (please do not flame me for this, I know now that I was completely and utterly wrong to think this).
Then a few months ago, she started to periodically snap at my little sister (now 5), but I told myself that it was her fault for bothering Mia and would make excuses for her. At this point Mia could not be trusted around any people and when we had visitors she was locked in my room. Then about 3 weeks ago Mia almost dragged my mom off of the front porch trying to get at a little boy who was just walking by and minding his own business.

After this I knew that it was time to put Mia down. It was the hardest decision that I ever had to make, Mia was my constant companion and my main support system when my Dad passed away from lung cancer. But I knew that she was a dangerous dog and that I didn't have the right to put other people and their pets lives at danger. So last week we took her to the vets and put her to the sleep (she was in all her glory at the vets with all the attention she was getting, so at least I know she was happy at the end). I truly believe that there was something wrong with Mia in the head, when she would go after people and other dogs, there was nothing in her eyes and there was no response to anything I said or did.

Even though I am only 16, I know in my heart that it was the right thing to do, no matter how much my 17 year old sister tells me that what I did was wrong and that I gave up on Mia. I gave her 2 years, and by this point I knew it was not going to get any better. I am starting the healing process, but I can not help but feel anger towards Mia's first owner, we talked for over 2 hours and she never mentioned anything about Mia's aggression issues.

I am sorry for such a long post, but I wanted to share Mia's story with you. I would also appreciate it if I don't get any posts telling me everything that I did was wrong, I get enough of that from my sister.

Lauren

[RedyreRottweilers]

Lauren, you had to make a very hard decision at a young age.

Regardless of what led up to it, it shows quite a bit of character that you were able to do what had to be done, and also that YOU LEARNED FROM IT.

I will light a candle for your little lost one. Rest assured that she is no longer tortured by the demons inside her that made her behave as she did.

[Doberluv]

Lauren, you did what any responsible person would do. It was the right thing to do. This dog was a repeat offender. You did what had to be done. Peoples' lives and safety must come first. My heart goes out to you at this hard and painful time.

I don't know how it will be with Carey...if this was a one time thing or not. She may be fine with good behavior modification techniques. But then again....I don't know....I never had a dog who needed that. As I've said, the dogs I had with my babies were completely Ok with them digging their hands in their food, taking a bone out of their mouth, accidentally hurting them occasionally....it didn't matter. Their nature was so sweet and tolerant 100% of the time. If I had a dog who bit my child, I'd not want to risk another bite again. I'm afraid I'd never trust the dog again. But like the others said, I do support you in your efforts to rehabilitate her. And she has been a great dog up to that point. And hope for the very best outcome.

[Calamity Kate]

Gapeach - I appreciate your points and believe me, I feel for you and your situation and have no wish to upset you.

However, I think Nerual's story above speaks volumes.

It also worries me when I read or hear of people saying things like you said in your post..... "You do not know my dog she loves Maggie with all her heart and was treating her as a lower member of our pack, not as a someone to hurt."

I'm sorry hun, but dogs do not love people with all their hearts. They do not possess human emotions as we understand them. I know a lot of people will jump on me for this, but anthropomorphising animals often leads to accidents. When she bit your child's face, she didn't think of whether it would hurt her or not, she was acting on instinct and instinct is a very difficult thing to override, however good the training.

I would also remind you that you posted this on a public forum, and getting defensive when you receive an opinion you don't want to hear is a little unfair.

I truly hope all goes well for you all, and that none of your family ever gets hurt again xxxx

[RedyreRottweilers]

I have kept my trap shut on this topic because of my anger associated with it.

I spent several days agonizing over the impending death of this dog.

Only to be told, on the morning she was to be euth'd, after I'd written condolence notes and shed a tear or two, that it was not carried out. I was ANGRY when I realized that I had felt these upsetting emotions for no reason, and that the child in this home was still in danger.

It should be noted the ticker in the bottom of GaPeach's signature indicates that another child is on the way.

I would not on a cold day in July trust this dog in my home with an infant for one second. I would bet my house that this dog bites again.

I hope my worries are in vain, but if this were my dog it would not have had a second chance to bite any child, much less my own.

[Calamity Kate]

<I hope my worries are in vain, but if this were my dog it would not have had a second chance to bite any child, much less my own.>

Well put.

The thing is, Gapeach, how serious a bite would it have to be, for you to do what you had originally decided to do? For instance, if the child's cheek had been ripped, or maybe her lip? Or her eye injured beyond repair? Because the point is, it was LUCK that none of these things happened. The dog did not think "I love this child, I will not cause TOO much damage, I shall just issue a warning". It could just as easily have been much worse. I'm sorry, but a bite is a bite is a bite. I honestly hope all us pessimists (some would say "realists") are wrong, and that your dog never bites again but what it comes down to is - is it worth the risk?

[JennSLK]

Personaly I would rehome her in a non child house hold. I would not want to risk my child getting killed

[RedyreRottweilers]

Jenn, that is not a good solution.

I don't feel you can EVER completely insulate a dog from children.

There is also liability involved in placing a dog who has a bite history.

[bubbatd]

This is so sad ---------- even re-homing will not take away the chance of an attack . It's no life for a dog, nor the owner.

[Carolyn]

Has there been any updates on this situation?

[mrose_s]

We struggled with the decision of putting her to sleep
I personally, think u have made the right decision, she has food agression, this is a fact. The bite was provoked and she wasnt aiming for Maggie's face ill bet, but it was probably at the right height. like an arm on an adult.
It doesnt sound like an overly agressive attack, it was a natural dog behaviour.

[mrose_s]

.

It also worries me when I read or hear of people saying things like you said in your post..... "You do not know my dog she loves Maggie with all her heart and was treating her as a lower member of our pack, not as a someone to hurt."

I'm sorry hun, but dogs do not love people with all their hearts. They do not possess human emotions as we understand them. I know a lot of people will jump on me for this, but anthropomorphising animals often leads to accidents.

im not going to "jump on you" but wanted to point out my own opinion. which is that animals, particularily dogs, are a lot more human than we excpect (or to put it a better way, we are a lot more dog)
I have seen dogs be bored, happy, joyful, sad, sorry, guilty i have seen them smile, laugh, grieve speak, learn, play and most importantly love. I do believe that a dog can feel complete love for a person, an unjudgemental and amazingly sensitive love. And i do feel sorry if you have never felt that your pet, whether it be a dog, cat, cow or horse loves you with all their heart.

love is more than loyalty, loyalty will keep a dog by your side as you struggle through life, love will keep your dog by your side as a car speeds towards ure poor frail body.

[Calamity Kate]

Smile? Please. Curl their lips in a facsimile of a smile, yes but please tell me that you do not honestly believe that you have seen a dog smile in the same way that a human smiles. A chimpanzee can make a "smile", but I assure you that they do not do it for the same reasons we do.

And if a dog stayed by my side while a car sped toward my poor, frail body it would be because a dog lacks the foresight to anticipate what will happen when said car hits said frail body, not love.

Look. The dogs I have owned and loved have been loved BECAUSE they are dogs, not because I try desperately to convince myself that they feel human emotions.

[Calamity Kate]

I personally, think u have made the right decision, she has food agression, this is a fact. The bite was provoked and she wasnt aiming for Maggie's face ill bet, but it was probably at the right height. like an arm on an adult.
It doesnt sound like an overly agressive attack, it was a natural dog behaviour.



Oh, well that's OK then! Let's hope Maggie grows quickly, so that her arms become more conveniently within bite range!

And as long as the attack wasn't OVERLY aggressive, that's OK too. Brilliant.:rolleyes:

[Doberluv]

Calamity Kate....I'm sorry to say, but you're behind the times as far as recent scientific research as well as opinions of the esteemed Charles Darwin as far as canine emotions. My own Doberman, as well as a few on a Doberman board I go on, smiles. He only smiles when he's having a super wee of a good time, when he's playing or when he's really excited to come to me. He draws his lips way up and all his teeth show. My Dad had a GSD who smiled. I even have a picture somewhere of a Doberman, (not mine) smiling while standing in another room, adjacent to where the person was taking the picture.

Anyhow...enough about smiles. There's a good article in Family Dog magazine...a few issues back discussing the recent scientific data which many behavioral scientists are becoming convinced that dogs do share many of the same emotions we have. Of course, they're a little different because naturally, we have different experiences and ways of processing them on account of who we are. But....they do believe dogs and other animals feel dejection, jelousy, joy, love and a few others. I think there might be a thread somewhere on this forum about this...can't remember for sure. I remember making a thread about this on this forum or another one. Charles Darwin, himself had something like 12 dogs and those were his main interest. It is from studying dogs that he branched out into the other areas. But they were his first love and he made a lot of observations.

Anyhow....as far as dogs having emotions and some dogs smiling with joy, I definitely believe they do. I've seen it with my own eyes and have had dogs for many years.

[Renee750il]

Thanks for that post, Doberluv :)

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=7826&cat=500&ppuser=148

[opokki]

I too, had a GSD x that smiled. He did this most often during greetings when we arrived home while, at the same time, wiggling his entire body.
I think these "dog-smiles" are also referred to as submissive grimaces.

[Calamity Kate]

<I think these "dog-smiles" are also referred to as submissive grimaces>

Precisely my point. I'm not disputing that they may well pull the same faces as we do, and occasionally in the right context and at the right times, but ultimately, it is not a "smile" in the same way, and for the same reasons that we do.

[smkie]

sally grinned when i tripped and did a belly flop on the deck..seemed to me she snickered too, and you say the word work and Victor flashes his bottom teeth grin, it is a happy face all the way so i disagree.
On this day there was no mistake that Mary thought we were all just silly
http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=5751&cat=500&ppuser=2623

[Doberluv]

I know what you mean. I've heard of submissive grimaces. But I tell you what...LOL. This dog of mine was not being one bit submissive at the times when he's doing this. If I scold him or anything and he should be acting submissive, he does not smile. It's when he's out roaring around in the yard, having fun or when he's charging to me. He is having a rip roaring good time and that's when those lips come up. Anyhow, they talked about this in this article which I wrote about in the other thread, entitled "the emotions of canines."

[Renee750il]

Yup, Dober . . . you can tell that's not a "submissive grimace" on Bimmer's face! He was actually quite proud of himself when I took that photo, lol!

[Muttlies3]

I don't have enough time to read every page in this thread so I don't know if the dog was put to death yet, but I read to the point where that was the final option (page 3 or 4.) (Could someone who's been in this thread since it was posted be ever so nice to let me know what's happened to the dog?)

My question to the OP is :

Have you sought PROFESSIONAL help on this yet? Before putting your dog to death I highly suggest this, in fact I beg of you to try it.

I'm so sorry you're put in this situation. This is one of the reasons I am worried about ever having children. I'm not sure if I will - and I surely don't want to be in your situation.

{HUGS}

[Julie]

I think they decided to keep the dog and get training help.

There is also another thread I think "We couldn't go thru with it" or something like that. From the same OP.

[Muttlies3]

Thank you, Julie. Just too much reading after working since 4am in the morning. ;)

I'm very grateful they've decided to try some other options! :)

[gapeach]

Yes, we have sought professional help, the trainer has yet to get back with me and we are currently trying to reach her. I do know that dogs are not people and I do not treat her as such but dogs do indeed love their people. How about the dogs who lie on their dead master's grave? Or the ones who travel thousands of miles to get back to their owners? Or the ones who risk their own lives to save their owners? Not all dogs are alike. Yes she bit Maggie and if it had been more severe we may have decided differently. And yes it was an instinct for her to bite, but as I've said before it was a warning. Maggie never should have been in the room with Carey with the treat ball, that was my fault and it will not happen again. We, as I have mentioned several times now, are seeking training help from a professional. Carey has never been an aggressive dog (besides the food issue) She has always been wonderful with all different ages of children. She was fantastic with Maggie as an infant, and no I am not and never have been one of these stupid parents who let their child do whatever they want to the dog. My children will never be left unattended with Carey. The problem is Carey sees Maggie as a lesser member of our family, that is what has to be changed with the help of a professional.

[Violet21]

I would like to say that i am SO sorry for your situation, and I have never had to deal with anything like that.. you poor people :( I feel absolutely horrible for you.

I would like to tell you also about when I brought home a new puppy, how my Golden Zac reacted to it.. I did not end up keeping the puppy because my mom had to go for surgery (cancer) and it was NOT the right time. anyways,
Zac is a very, very nice dog and completely completely knows I am the boss. He is fabulous with children, other dogs, cats, etc. However this puppy, in his home, Zac growled, barked ferociously and tried to bite him.

It was obvious to me that he regarded this puppy as much beneath him and his behaviour shocked me!
I am not comparing your child to a puppy or saying anything really, just mentioning that.

I think your dog is probably a good dog with some dominance issues. I would feel very freaked about keeping it too, especially with a tiny vulernable child.
I don't believe tho that being put down is perhaps the right issue. The dog sounds like he could likely be trained, and that this is a guarding food issue. If he bit spontaneously it would be a worse problem i think.

But please, do whatever is right for your family!! I feel terrible for you.

[gapeach]

Thank you Violet, it is entirely a dominane issue that we are currently working to resolve. Carey has to work to get everything at our house now, eats after we do and comes in and out after we do. She has to basic commands to get her food, water, play and love time and if she wants in or out of the house. Our trainer has not yet contacted us back but I believe it's becuase she has gone out of town. When she comes home we will begin working with her also.

[Calamity Kate]

<Yes she bit Maggie and if it had been more severe we may have decided differently. >

More severe than biting her face???
Unbelieveable...

[taratippy]

Gapeach it sounds like you are doing everything possible to sort the situation out and well done to you for trying.

[afears01]

This is so hard. I have a wonderful Boxer who loves all of my kids, ages 12, 4, and 3. She has never, ever shown any aggression towards my kids, and is the best dog I could possibly have hoped for. If she were to bite one of my kids now, I would feel the same way as you, and I would be heartbroken to have to give her up. However, I would do it. I would like to say that I would go out and get her a behaviorist and a trainer and all of that, but I'm not sure I would. The reason?? I don't think I would ever be able to relax again and trust my dog again around not only my kids, but kids she does not know as well, even with all of the training and new behaviors. I know this is going to break your heart, and mine goes out to you, but I think you must get rid of her for everyone's sake. The dog is obviously not comfortable, your daughter could be afraid of dogs forever, and it's possible that you could have something even worse happen to her, like losing a finger or well, anything else. Besides, you will never be able to walk around your house, your dog walking along beside you, without feeling like you have to be on eggshells all the time. That will, in turn, make the dog nervous and more apt to bite. Jeez, I am really, really sorry. I sure hope you find the courage to give the dog a new and childless home. I will pray for your strength.

[RedyreRottweilers]

IMO, "getting rid of" (HOW I HATE THOSE WORDS) the dog, or rehoming her in a home without children is not an option.

The owner would be liable for any future injury she caused, since she is already on record as a biter. The child received medical attention for her wounds, so this bite is documented.

Again, it is my opinion that placing a dog who is a known biter in most circumstances would be irresponsible and you would also be liable should the dog injure someone else in the future.

[PFC1]

The owner would be liable for any future injury she caused, since she is already on record as a biter. The child received medical attention for her wounds, so this bite is documented.

Again, it is my opinion that placing a dog who is a known biter in most circumstances would be irresponsible and you would also be liable should the dog injure someone else in the future.

I can't speak for any other jurisdictions, but I think that this statement does not acurately state the law here. Perhaps this is true where you live, but it is not necessarily true everywhere.

[pocket warmer]

Dogs have got to know there place that`s all and keeping it right from the start matters.In Careys case I think you did right not to destroy him.I`m no expert but I think if you take a back seat and supervise while Maggie takes a less gentle more dominant role,giving comands,asserting control over Carey as well as lots of quality fun time together so they bond further it could work out ok.You can teach Maggie how to behave around the dog and keep Carey in check at the same time.If she so much as growls at her again,hit her hard,bawl her out and she`ll get the message.As much as we love our dogs and hate the thought of hitting them I believe it is sometimes necessary when it`s this important.

[lapdog]

I had a cocker spaniel that tried to nip a toddler. She didn't break skin, but out of the blue, she jumped at the toddler and gave a warning nip. That was the first and last time she was allowed anywhere near a toddler. If younger children came to visit, the dog was crated. My children were older and had no problem with her.

Perhaps with training and as the child grows older, the problem can be corrected, but I would not leave the two of them in the same room. I think rehoming is a legitimate solution. Many people have no children and would be responsible not to let him around any. Its not that hard to do.

[moxiegrl]

[QUOTE=CalamityKate] More severe than biting her face???
Unbelieveable.../QUOTE]

I dont think she meant that biting Maggie wasnt severe, and she put's her child above her dog. Biting is not acceptable, and she is trying to correct the problem by getting professional help. If the PROFESSIONAL does not think the problem can be corrected, he or she will advice her on what to do with Carey. I have never had to put a dog down because of that, but I cannot imagine what I would do. But what I would do does not matter, because I currently (and hopefully never) am in her shoes. I just think its a little insensitive to be so condesending to someone who is obviously going through a very tough time. And as far as rehoming, i have seen many dogs up for adoption that say "experienced with dogs and no children or other pets in the home." We do not know this dog personally, we did not raise it, and unfortunatly we do not know WHY it bit Maggie. Doing what's best for your family is the most important, but it is not our family to judge. Advice is one thing, being condescending and judgemental is another. BTW, Good luck with everything Gapeach

[Calamity Kate]

Absolutely agree that doing what is best for one's family is most important. To my mind, doing what is best for my children would include putting as much distance between them and a dog which had bitten one of them on the face as possible. I take your point about the PROFESSIONAL, but I still think that common sense must prevail.

[orbit86]

your dog thinks she\he is the dominant person and its probably your fault for not doing anything. is she excercised? just letting her roam the Backyard doesn't do anything. atleast 1 hour of heavy running\fast walking a day depending on the dog. the dog thinks the ball is his\her own and was reclaiming it.

its not a bahavior problem.

I hate it when people don't understnad dogs and just go kill them

[Debi]

your dog thinks she\he is the dominant person and its probably your fault for not doing anything. is she excercised? just letting her roam the Backyard doesn't do anything. atleast 1 hour of heavy running\fast walking a day depending on the dog. the dog thinks the ball is his\her own and was reclaiming it.

its not a bahavior problem.

I hate it when people don't understnad dogs and just go kill them

you obviously didn't take the time to read the entire thread. this isn't about 'people who don't understand dogs and go kill them' :rolleyes:

[Saje]

your dog thinks she\he is the dominant person and its probably your fault for not doing anything. is she excercised? just letting her roam the Backyard doesn't do anything. atleast 1 hour of heavy running\fast walking a day depending on the dog. the dog thinks the ball is his\her own and was reclaiming it.

its not a bahavior problem.

I hate it when people don't understnad dogs and just go kill them

I hate it when people don't understand a situation and make a judgement on it.

[orbit86]

I do understand it, Dogs aren't aggressive to people. what did the daughter do?..

[moxiegrl]

I do understand it, Dogs aren't aggressive to people. what did the daughter do?..

Some dogs are aggressive toward people unfortunatly, but it is usually how they were raised from very early on. Some aggressive issues can be helped, others can not, and it is not safe to have the dogs around people. The "daughter" did not do anything except what normal young children do, pick things up. Dogs that have food or dominance issues need to be trained not to react when someone or another pet messes with their food or treats.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Orbit,
Please do not assume. Go back, read the thread, then reply.

~Tucker

[Carolyn]

Dogs aren't aggressive?

You can bet your life some dogs are aggressive to people indeed.

Gapeach, I have just checked in again, and I hope your progress is going ok

Please let us know how you're getting on. Thats unless I've missed any updates

Good luck :)

[gapeach]

To clarify Carey has no agression towards people. She has just got her place in our family mixed up by thinking she is dominant over our daughter.

The trainer still has not contacted me and noone seems to be at home, we go by the house on the way to town. The first time I contacted her she returned my call immediately. I assume she has gone out of town, to train someone's dog or for personal reasons, I have no idea. This week I plan on stopping by there and dropping a note. Things are still going well howver, Carey does her commands for food, play time, going out, and coming in. She waits while we go out first until I tell her she can come in. We still do not allow Maggie in the room while Carey is eating. And where we used to let them roughhouse together (which I now know is probably how this got started) Maggie can only pet her nicely. I watch and make sure Carey has not had enough of her and when she has the petting/ attention stops. I am really tired of being judged so harshly for our decision, I believe it is the right one. As I have said many times before, no two dogs are alike, you do not know my dog. She has always LOVED (yes I will use that word again) Maggie. This was simply a food agression and dominance issue. It can be improved with help, which we still plan on doing and in the mean time I am donig all I possibly can to help along the relearning proces with what I know. For those of you who support me Thank you very much I appreciate it immensely for those of you who don't I have not asked for any opnion on this thread except on what to ask a trainer. Your opinoins do not matter to me, as we have done and continue to do what is right for our family. Maggie is not scared of Carey or any other dog, she has no pshchological(sp) damage from this and continues to love Carey very very much. As for another episode happening or her getting her finger bitten off is harsh and obviously you do not understand the problem at hand or our extreme efforts to correct this behavior. We will not put Carey to sleep she is a member of our family. If we had another child who hurt Maggie in some way, would you expect us to get rid of him/her as well? I understand a dog can do alot more damage ( in most cases anyway) than another child. But that is exactly why we are not sitting back and doing nothing, we are doing everything in our power to reteach Carey her place in the family. And will continue to do so, hopefully soon with professional help.

[JennSLK]

I know you said you dontcare about our opinions but I think your doing the right thing.

If it is a fixable issue, why would you through the life away?

Cudos to you

[gapeach]

Thank you Jenn, the people who support our decision mean alot to me, it's the people who think we're doing wrong that I'm sick of. I'm tired of defending our decision, that's all. I didn't mean to seem rude. Thanks for your comment, we feel the same.