Misplaced Aggression...HELP!!

[Azucenda]

This has happened once or twice before, but two days in a row has me looking for more opinions.

Last night, I took Tusker (9 month Boxer/English Bulldog) out for his last walk/bathroom break before bedtime. Suddenly a guy came out from behind a building about 20-30 feet away walking his dog. I'm not sure what breed his dog was... it kind of looked like a wolfhound, but a bit smaller. Then again, I haven't been up close to it, so maybe I'm wrong about the size :).

Tusker just tightened up (not sure how else to explain it), and barked twice. I put my hand on his neck to draw his attention, and he sort of snarled and snapped at my hand. I mean, like he REALLY wanted to bite me. Once the dog left, he returned to his normal self... happy, loving, and just wanting to be petted.

Tonight in obedience class there was another boxer next to us, and after about 45 minutes of training he sniffed the dog and eventually did the same this. This time, he caught my finger. It was a good thing that only his front teeth caught me, because he didn't break the skin or anything.

Now I watch Animal Planet, and have heard about misplaced agression so that thought was in the back of my mind. But after class I approached our trainer and told her about the two incidents and she asked some questions and then said that she thought it was misplaced aggression as well. Her advice was to leave the pinch collar on him when we go outside (not for training), and if that happens again to get his attention through noise (AHHHH...) and a slight pop on the collar if need be.

I was just wondering if anyone else had dealt with this problem or had any other suggestions. I'm willing to do whatever I can, since I'm worried that this might one day happen around a child and they'll put their hands on him and get nipped. This new problem just scares me to death because I don't want anything to happen to Tusker... he's like my baby. :(

Can anyone help us?

[Doberluv]

It sounds like it could be misplaced or re-directed aggression. But, nevertheless if you put your hand on him before he went off on that dog, I'm not so sure. You need to catch him and get his attention before he gets all alert to another dog. Once he goes off, his mind isn't on you at all. Don't let him sniff other dogs.

Personally, I don't think using a pinch collar and correcting him is a good idea. It will add to his agitation and tend to make him react toward you even more. If you can keep on walking and don't stop, try to act like this is not a big deal..."let's go" and keep him going, would that help? Or is he going off even when you do that?

I would work on desensatization somewhere where he can see other dogs from a bit of a distance (far enough away that he doesn't act so tense) and when he remains calm, when he sees them and can give you attention, reward him. Gradually, over time practice getting a little closer and closer...walking back and forth where some dogs are....a parking lot at a Pet Smart, a dog park. Don't try to rush this by getting closer than what he's ready for.

Seriously.....I'd consult a behaviorist besides your trainer. Behaviorists know what to do with abnormal behavior. Trainers know how to train.

Let us know how he does. Best wishes.

[Kama]

Personally, I don't think using a pinch collar and correcting him is a good idea. It will add to his agitation and tend to make him react toward you even more. If you can keep on walking and don't stop, try to act like this is not a big deal..."let's go" and keep him going, would that help? Or is he going off even when you do that?


I was thinking the same thing. Maybe he is reacting to the owner rather than the dog itself.

When you take Tusker for a walk, do you tense up when you see another dog? Do you pull the leash tight even before you are close? It may be that he is sensing your reaction and acting out what he is getting from you.

[RedyreRottweilers]

WARNING!!!!

Dogs who are displaying this sort of redirection to you of aggression may REALLY try to go up your arm if you whale on him with a pinch.

If this were my dog, he would be on STRICT Rank Reduction IMMEDIATELY.

http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

If it were my dog, I would set him up with a good nylon slip collar on him. I would correct the dog the SECOND he starts to notice the stimuli. I would give him a strong correction, and turn him immediately 180 degrees so his back is to the distraction.

I would demand his attention and a sit, and then I would reward him.

If he went for me AT ALL, I would give him 2 choices:

1) bite
2) Breathe

Pick one. Given the choice, most pick breathe. ;)

Once he clearly understands that you are NOT going to tolerate him redirecting on you, then I would work on attention, and distracting him before he is "in the moment", and reward him handsomely for proper behavior.

Again, BE CAREFUL using a pinch in this situation. If I need a pinch on a dog that might redirect, I always have 2 collars and 2 leashes so I can use the slip collar if I need to.

[Azucenda]

Okay, let me see if I can answer any questions/comments that have arisen.

Doberluv: It's odd, because he doesn't do this around most dogs. Most of the time he just wants to play with them. He's almost 9 months old, and this has only happened with two or three dogs. In our obedience class, he's in close proximity (3 or 4 feet) with the other dogs at one point or another. And most of the time, he's great. As to saying "let's go", it probably works 99% of the time. But when he gets in this "zone", I might as well not even be there. At that time, I think he could care less. I will most definitely consult a behaviorist, and see what suggestions they might have for me. I know that there is one just down the road, so I'll find the number.

Kama: After reading your post I sat here for a while thinking about my actions. The only time I'll move farther up the leash is if someone surprises us by popping out from around the corner. Perhaps it's my fault because I'm surprised, but Tusker is a HUGE puller, and I guess I chalk it off as getting more control over his movements. I'll definitely try my best to keep any emotions in check and stay open and calm.

Redyre (I shortened your name, hope you don't mind :)): The reason that we have a pinch collar right now is because Tusker is a horrible puller. We tried the choke collar, which worked wonders for our last dog, and it never phased him. I have a nylon collar on him now since we began training, because he's become so much better behaved on the leash. I do understand what everyone is saying, though, because the trainer also told me that pulling back on a dog could cause them to get riled up even further. I just wanted to clear up that the pinch collar was not just for this purpose or anything.

I'm not exactly familiar with the nylon slip collar... how well does it work for a dog that will pull/lunge at the end of the leash when something like this happens? Obviously I'm open to any help/suggestions, so please educate me! :) Also, thanks for the link on Alpha dogs... I've bookmarked it and will be sharing it with my boyfriend when he gets home.

I am curious, though.... you said that you would give your dog the two choices, bite or breathe. How exactly would you do this? A few months ago he and I had our little "tussles" and the only way I could get him down was to literally lay on him and wait until he calmed. My boyfriend, on the other hand (at 265 lbs) is more than able to lift the dog up with one hand if need be.




Thank you all for your suggestions... I will certainly try them all. I am so glad that I'm a member here where everyone is so willing to help!

[doberkim]

red - im a little confused - clearly you are advocating strongly physically corrected and some version of the alpha roll (bite or breathe, im assuming this is physically preventing the dog from doing something) ---

so why is a prong so horrible? If you will strongly correct your dog and force him to turn around, what makes a prong correction worse?

[RedyreRottweilers]

I am not against prong collars in the slightest. However, you cannot keep a dog off of you with one, and dogs who are exhibiting aggression can go BALLISTIC when you correct with a prong. If you correct with the prong, and it escalates the dog's aggression, then the more you correct with the prong, the more aggression you get, in a vicious circle, and someone is going to get hurt.

With a SLIP collar, you can turn the dog around, and if he starts to go for you, a stiff arm out to the side will keep the dog off of you, firm upward tension on the leash will cut off the dog's wind, and eliminate the struggle VERY fast.

I have absolutely no issue with a prong, but IMO it is not what is needed in THIS situation.

JMO as always. :D

[RedyreRottweilers]

I can control a very large dog with ONE HAND if it is wearing a properly fitted nylon collar and a good leather leash.

The collar should be JUST large enough to slip over the dog's head. It should be tight enough that it takes some effort to get it on and off. Collars that are too lose are dangerous and inefficient. The collar MUST be up as close to the top of the neck as possible for maximum control.

I used a chain collar in these photos, but your collar should never be any bigger than your dog's head than this, and it could be SMALLER:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a22/RedyreRotties/collarfit.jpg

You should keep the collar up HIGH behind the ears like this, and right up under the chin, for maximum effectiveness...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a22/RedyreRotties/headcontrol5.jpg

Thinner collars have better effectiveness, to a degree. You don't want them so thin they might break. Nylon collars are easier to get on in a very snug fit, and because they are lightweight, they stay up on the neck easier, however, using a slip collar properly means repositioning it every time it slips, and NEVER allowing a tight lead unless you mean to choke the dog, and I mean choke as a disciplinary measure to prevent biting.

[Doberluv]

Here's my warning to you. Do not treat aggression of any kind with aggression... of any kind. You'll associate the thing he has the problem with, with pain or whatever you do to him. You want to make these dogs become his friend (indirectly......from a distance) This is where desensatizing and counter conditioning come in to play. I highly recommend you get yourself a qualified, reputable behavaviorist who does not use pain or harsh methods to correct a problem like this. You need some serious, qualified help. The Internet is not something that can be relied on to really help you. This is a serious problem and I would hate to see you get bitten seriously. Your dog is confused and not consciously trying to attack you. This is what I am supposing, at any rate. This is an abnormal behavior, but it does happen sometimes with some dogs. I think it can be corrected with proper handling. But stern, harsh punishment, I truly believe is not the way to fix this.

I agree with Redyre in that there is most likely a leadership issue going on as well. That is showing up in this terrible pulling and not paying attention to you. However, part of that is that he needs training. While you're looking into a behaviorist, here's something you can do in the meantime: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm

If you want to take him on walks away from home, avoid places where dogs can be seen up close. I don't know what type of setting you're in, but I'd stay clear of other dogs just until you sort some of this out. It's agitating him highly, obviously. But if you can get him somewhere where there are dogs way off somewhere, where he can see them, but is far enough back that he won't be apt to react in that highly agitated state. (If you think there is such a distance which will keep him more settled)

Just please see who you can find who specializes in abnormal behavior. I don't think your trainer even, is qualified necessarily. And everything I have researched for several years now, indicates that you do not use punishment for something like this.

Let us know.

[Fuzz Puppy]

I'd use really strong discipline if this dog goes after you or someone else. I'd concider a special collar or something like that. I would be extremely careul about this dog interacting with people or other dogs because this dog could easily hurt them. Good luck to you.

[Azucenda]

Fuzz Puppy: When you say "Strong discipline", what exactly do you mean? I wasn't sure, because different people have differnt ideas as to what is strong. For instance, some people would consider a light tap to be stong, while others would consider it to mean the alpha roll, ar even harsher. I just want to be sure about what everyone means and their techniques. :)

Redyre: thanks for all of the pictures, they really helped me visualize! I guess I'm just a really visual person (which may be why I have such problems in organic chemistry!) so actually being able to SEE the sizes, placement, etc. helped more than any explanation.

Doberluv: Well right now we're in an apartment complex, but Feb. 11th we're moving into a house with a 1.5 acre fenced backyard.

Wow... I just thought of something. A couple of weeks ago my boyfriend walked Tusker up to the mailbox to get the mail, and at our complex all dogs must be on a leash at ALL times. I guess some guy didn't have his dogs on a leash and they ran up to Tusker (who was on a leash) and started sniffing him. Joey said "let's go" or something to that effect, and they continued on the the mailbox while the guy kept chasing his two dogs around. On their way back a few minutes later the dogs were still running loose, and ran up to Tusker again. One tried to hump him, which he didn't care for. Then again, I don't think I'd be too happy either if some strange person did that to me ;). At that point, the other dog was lunging towards Tusker barking, growling, and baring his teeth. Joey was trying to fend them off, and managed to get the 'humper' off just as the other dog went to bite at Tusker. I guess my this point our pup had enough, and turned and whacked the other dog in the muzzle... finally they backed off and the owner made his way over to collect his dogs. Do you think that this might have had something to do with his change in behavior towards one or two dogs? Like maybe these dogs remind him of those two? What do ya'll think?

[Doberluv]

Do you think that this might have had something to do with his change in behavior towards one or two dogs? Like maybe these dogs remind him of those two? What do ya'll think?

It sure can.

When people say discipline, I think a lot of people think that means punishment. It does not. It means to teach. That's what your dog needs...to be taught to deal with it and learn to have good manners. He won't learn by associating other dogs with a rotten time. It will make him worse. I have had a similar problem with my Dobe. He never re-directed his aggression or, rather, reactiveness to me, but he lunged at other dogs badly. He has improved greatly. He is so much more accepting and minds his manners, passed his CGC test and only occasionally reacts and it's much milder than ever. It took a long time, but the way I described is how I went about it....desensatizing, not punishing. Punishment doesn't teach. It will add to the agitation and reactiveness if you make a big deal out passing by other dogs. They need to learn how to process and direct this behavior into a constructive, manageable way. They need to be shown. In this case, where your dog is re-directing his aggression to you, this is where I think a behaviorist needs to be consulted. I do hope you get help with this.

That's neat that you're getting a new house and some land! Congrats!

[Fuzz Puppy]

Like stronger leash correction when your dog goes after someone and don't tolerate the dog going at you either. If you tolerate the dog going after you, it will happen again and it will be even more aggressive. Be sure to watch your dog around people and other dogs. Oh, and warn other people about it. That way they can make their own decisions based on that information.

[Doberluv]

There are many types and causes of aggression and different ways aggression is treated by professionals. Normally, they are treated with some sort of desensatization and counter conditioning. It is widely known, (if you do your research) that treating aggression with punishment perpetuates it...makes it worse.

It is important to know what type of aggression initiates your dog's reactiveness toward other dogs....before he re-directs it toward you. Can it be protective aggression, defense aggression, dominance aggression, fear aggression, leash frustration??? There is no way to know that over the Internet.

It is also important to see your vet and rule out any underlying medical reasons for this. Does he have a painful neck so that when he is pulled on with the leash, is this causing him to react defensively?

I do urge you to seek professional help. Once a dog bites, the likelihood of re-offending is much greater and with more force.

[Azucenda]

I am planning on calling the vet tomorrow to get the number of the behaviorist that they recommend. I know that they do training there as well, but I didn't care for the way that they did it, which was why we opted for our trainer. Instead of classes with owners, they board the dogs and the trainer there trains them for a week, and then you have one class to learn everything and interact with the dog before taking him home. I thought it would be better for us to learn along with Tusker. But I will get in touch with the woman and set up a time to see her, hopefully tomorrow. I'll let you all know what she says... and thanks so much for the help!

[Doberluv]

If you don't have a good gut feeling about this person, be careful about letting her push you to do something with your dog that you don't feel right about. A lot of people call themselves "behaviorists" and they're not. I'd ask to see what certification or degree she has in animal behavioral science, what methods she uses, her philosophy on handling dogs.

Harsh treatment can ruin a dog. I'm sorry if I seem pushy, but this really concerns me and I do want the very best for you and your dog's future.

Can't wait to hear how things go. I think this can be straightened out if handled sensibly and I can see how dedicated you are to your pooch. He's a lucky dog.

[bubbatd]

You're wise to check this out !! Let us know . Do you know if the breeder really socialized the litter and how old was he when you got him ?? I agree with Dob that he's luck to have you. I learned today of a Lab that had problems and she plans to " get rid of him " ....poor thing is only 6 months old.

[Azucenda]

Sadly enough, where I was raised a lot of dogs were simply "dropped off" when no longer wanted. Somehow they always found their way to our house, and we always took them in, got them vet care, and rehomed them. The last one was a black lab who had heartworms, which we assume is why they dropped her off because of it. It was just so sad. Maybe that's why I'm so against just getting rid of a dog because they have a prblem or two... you know, I'll learn, I'll work with him, I'll do whatever.

Oh, I'm sorry... I was a bit confusing in the earlier post. It wasn't the behaviorist that was training, I just didn't care for the trainer at that location. That's why I know where it is :). Sorry about that. I saw her once before right after we got Tusker, and she seemed very knowledgable. I will check on her credentials when I call.

I know that the breeder socialized a lot with people... adults and children. As far as other dogs, I'm not so sure. We got him at 7 1/2 weeks. A bit young, I know, but only by 3 or 4 days.

[Doberluv]

Oh wow....well, you have a big heart. Such sas stories...people just giving up on dogs so easily. I have neighbors like that....dogs bark too much and off to the shelter.

Well, lack of socialization usually causes a dog to be afraid and shy, shrinking at things, rather than aggressive. Lots of dogs are dog to dog reactive and not always aggressive. But because he's biting at you, that's what really concerns me. I doubt he's consciously trying to attack you but it's more of a bi-product of his aggression to the other dog....something just going haywire.

Well, I'm just rambling....thinking out loud. Anyhow, I hope it all gets fixed up and that this person can help.

[Azucenda]

LOL... don't worry about rambling, you should hear the messages I've left on voicemails! :D

I know what you mean... the lady at the nail place I go to was telling me about a golden retriever that they got. Then when it got "too big" they got rid of it. I was just speechless. I mean, why get a dog and not know how large it will grow to? Grrr.

I will try to get an appointment tomorrow, so I can fill you all in on how it goes.

[Fuzz Puppy]

Good luck finding a trainer. I know finding a trainer can be kind of difficult. You're doing the right thing for your dog. Don't worry about it. Good luck to your dog and you. Please let us know how it goes.

[Azucenda]

Okay, I talked with the behaviorist today... but I must admit, I was a bit disappointed with her attitude. Instead of offering other suggestions, she just kept telling me to get him neutered. Which we are, by the way, In March (first available appointment at our vet). It makes me wonder what advice she offers to people with show dogs. Anyway, she said that it would decrease any aggressiveness in him.

So on March 9th Tusker goes in to get neutered. Shhh... no one tell him!

Now for a quick question. How long after this does he need to be kept still and fairly sedate? We have our vacation planned for March 13th, our first in a few years. But if this poses a problem to him, I want to be sure to reschedule something.

Thanks, ya'll, for all of your help and suggestions!

[Doberluv]

Well, they usually need 10-14 days of rest, no wild running or jumping. I'd reschedule. (double check with your vet)

Neutering helps somewhat if the aggression has something to do with the hormones. It doesn't necessarily. Not all aggression types have anything to do with those hormones. And the optimum time to neuter is just before or just as adolescence sets in, at about 6 months. When they have been flooded with testosterone, behaviors which are influenced by the hormone begin to become a habit and brain pathways are formed. Some behaviors may be eliviated and some will not or not much. Good leadership and training should make him manageable regardless. Neutering may help too, at least to some degree.

It's too bad she couldn't give you a game plan. Did you ask her anything specific or did she brush you off and just zero in on only the neutering aspect of this? If you call her on the phone tonight and say that you're planning on neutering him, but that you'd like to know more what she thinks, what she does with situations like this, how she goes about it. You should be satisfied with her explanation and feel like you have a game plan. If not, I'd seek someone else. Like I said, a lot of people out there call themselves trainers and behaviorists and they're just full of it. Does she come with any references? What's her schooling?

We're going to get to the bottom of this so hang in there. lol

[Fuzz Puppy]

Neiterinng probably would help along with some training. I'd reschedule 2-3 weeks after you get him neutered too. Good luck

Hannah