Question about GSD's. [Archive] - Chazhound Dog Forum

Jynx

12-11-2005, 05:38 PM

I've had gsd's for all my life, and now have aussies as well..The slope you are referring to is angulation..There are different varieties of GSD's,,american showlines, west or east german working lines, west show lines, czech lined dogs..etc..

The american showline gsd, tends to have more rear angulation than others.
If you've ever gone to a gsd specialty, you'll see alot of gsd's with more rear angulation , some extreme.

I' personally don't like extreme rear angulation in any dog, it is not a sign of poor breeding, in fact dogs with the extreme angulation could have better hips than a dog who is "square" (no rear angulation)> GSD"s need "some" angulation in order to propell forward, however extreme is not my cup of tea.

GSD Gurl has a point as well, in some pics, show pics mostly, you' may see a GSD stacked to look like he has alot of 'rear' when in fact he really doesn't.

Alot of facets to the GSD breed, some good some bad..but rear angulation is not in itself a sign of poor breeding.
hope this helps
Diane

tessa_s212

12-11-2005, 06:04 PM

Ick. I hate it. It just does not look natural.

I'd like to see a pic of an american show line GSD stacking with all four legs square.

yuckaduck

12-11-2005, 07:12 PM

GSDMom

12-11-2005, 07:18 PM

some do breed for extreme angulations,
I prefer a well balanced dog.

Rhino

12-11-2005, 07:39 PM

Yukon has it slightly and Hope has almost straight back. Both have xrayed excellent hips and I much prefer their look then that extreme angulation. Ick!

Yukon free stacking
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/yuckaduck/lookatme.jpg

Hope free stacking

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/yuckaduck/standHope.jpg

I agree, I like the look of your dogs!!

I honestly don't know enough about the breed to say whether or not it's healthy (extreme "angulation"), but it just not appeal to me at all.

Thanx everyone for the replies, I appreciate it.

Rhino

12-11-2005, 07:42 PM

Just another question...

They are herding/shephard dogs, right? What about that type of conformation is beneficial or helpful to them doing their job? Or is this something that has evolved predominantly in the show ring?

The only reason I ask, is that other breeds who do similar things don't show that type of conformation.

yuckaduck

12-11-2005, 07:42 PM

Thank you!

Mine are both from German Working Lines.

GSDMom

12-11-2005, 07:53 PM

my dogs are American Show Line, very well balanced and have OVC or OFA certified hip & elbows - having a steeper croup does NOT make a dog dysplastic

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c224/sunshinebonnie/camera_008.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c224/sunshinebonnie/SHEP_KARS_BW.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c224/sunshinebonnie/SHEPBE-3-36.jpg

I LOVE MY DOGS just the way they are :D

tessa_s212

12-11-2005, 08:04 PM

*cringes*

Can your dogs excell in anything else besides conformation? :confused:

tessa_s212

12-11-2005, 08:05 PM

GSDMom

12-11-2005, 08:10 PM

*cringes*

Can your dogs excell in anything else besides conformation? :confused:

of course they can, they are NOT cripples
if you could see them in my yard you would say they look pretty square
we do obedience training, tracking is something we plan to try this spring

and by the was it's Shepherd not Shephard - just a pet peeve of mine ;)

Rhino

12-11-2005, 11:07 PM

my dogs are American Show Line, very well balanced and have OVC or OFA certified hip & elbows - having a steeper croup does NOT make a dog dysplastic

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c224/sunshinebonnie/camera_008.jpg

This looks so uncomfortable to me. It looks like the dog is standing on its hawks. Do they every suffer from any sort of knee/ligament conditions? I can't imagine being at that angle and not having some sort of a health problem.

Julie

12-11-2005, 11:28 PM

This is Rocket side view. I know nothing about show German Shepherds.
I don't even know if she is "well" bred. But she is excellent at working the streets, and that is all that matters to us. She is supposedly from German Working Lines, but we never saw her pedigree and haven't sent her Akc papers in yet. And if I send them in now I will pay extra for waiting. lol
I am going to send them in but no hurry now, cause I will pay the extra anyway.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/side2.jpg

And here is a front view.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/RocketDog2.jpg

I really didn't know what stacked was before a couple months ago.
Anybody want to critique this dog, it would be fun and it doesn't really matter
too much to me because she has already proved herself as a "working k9 partner". I love her and she has the best personality for a dog of her training.
Thanks.
Julie.

panzer426

12-11-2005, 11:41 PM

the angulation does not cause them to be dysplastic, however there is a far higher incidence of dysplasia in american showline gsd's. some say it the angulation is dangerous to their health, others say it isnt. I personally think it depends on the severity and then only in the dogs so deeply bred for the trait that it is almost permanent. and the term is "hocks", hawks are birds of prey related to eagles and falcons.
american bloodline gsd's "can" do work they were bred for, however this is far less common. even the german showlines are less inclined at herding, schutzhund, agility etc. the main reason for this is that the working bloodlines typically have higher working drive. that is to say that the working dogs are typically more inclined to want to work, and to want to work much harder.
the angulation is of great debate, often (though hopefully not here and now) very heated debate among gsd enthusiasts. those of us who prefer the more puristic, old time, original type prefer european lines (even the european show lines have far reduced angulation). others prefer the extreme angulation.
also the european bloodlines have larger bone structure and thicker, more pronounced muscle structure. typically larger heads and straighter backs.
american bloodline gsd's typically are not as extremely angulated as you usually see in photos or show stances. they are more angulated typically than working line or european showline gsd's, but the extreme angulation is in a show stance, called a stack, which you see in the show ring.
here you can see photos of Horand, the first registered german shepherd... http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/hdogs/HorandGrafrath.html born in 1895.
here are german showline gsd photos... http://www.justshepherds.com/wgshow.htm
west and east german working lines... http://www.justshepherds.com/working.htm
various types including the Czech lines... http://www.justshepherds.com/othergsds.htm
and north american lines... http://www.justshepherds.com/nalines.htm

Julie...any more photos of your gsd? from the 2 you posted I cant say anything remotely bad about her except that in the top photo it looks like she might be slightly cow hocked (though that could be the angle of the camera or the fact that she appears to be in the process of turning around) and in the 2nd photo it appears that her tail hangs straight down (also could be camera angle or other trick of the photo) but appears to be of correct length. she looks very nice to me. and by the way, dont take those possible comments as rude...it looks like it is merely a photo illusion.
she looks like german working lines and german showlines to me.

oh yeah...I forgot, the show stance is no more uncomfortable to them than high heels are to women. sure they are not comfortable but consider that the american show gsd's are in that stance for maybe a total of 20 minutes during a show and not all at once. women wear high heels for a lot longer than that and a lot more often.
kind of suprised myself here by defending the american showlines, I very much prefer the european lines. but thats just me.

rottiegirl

12-11-2005, 11:50 PM

I like angulation in a GSD, but I do not like it when breeders take it to the extreme. I havent heard of any problems with rear angulation, but I have heard about problems with GSDs having roach back due to bad breeding.

Julie

12-11-2005, 11:54 PM

the angulation does not cause them to be dysplastic, however there is a far higher incidence of dysplasia in american showline gsd's. some say it the angulation is dangerous to their health, others say it isnt. I personally think it depends on the severity and then only in the dogs so deeply bred for the trait that it is almost permanent. and the term is "hocks", hawks are birds of prey related to eagles and falcons.
american bloodline gsd's "can" do work they were bred for, however this is far less common. even the german showlines are less inclined at herding, schutzhund, agility etc. the main reason for this is that the working bloodlines typically have higher working drive. that is to say that the working dogs are typically more inclined to want to work, and to want to work much harder.
the angulation is of great debate, often (though hopefully not here and now) very heated debate among gsd enthusiasts. those of us who prefer the more puristic, old time, original type prefer european lines (even the european show lines have far reduced angulation). others prefer the extreme angulation.
also the european bloodlines have larger bone structure and thicker, more pronounced muscle structure. typically larger heads and straighter backs.
american bloodline gsd's typically are not as extremely angulated as you usually see in photos or show stances. they are more angulated typically than working line or european showline gsd's, but the extreme angulation is in a show stance, called a stack, which you see in the show ring.
here you can see photos of Horand, the first registered german shepherd... http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/hdogs/HorandGrafrath.html born in 1895.
here are german showline gsd photos... http://www.justshepherds.com/wgshow.htm
west and east german working lines... http://www.justshepherds.com/working.htm
various types including the Czech lines... http://www.justshepherds.com/othergsds.htm
and north american lines... http://www.justshepherds.com/nalines.htm

Julie...any more photos of your gsd? from the 2 you posted I cant say anything remotely bad about her except that in the top photo it looks like she might be slightly cow hocked (though that could be the angle of the camera or the fact that she appears to be in the process of turning around) and in the 2nd photo it appears that her tail hangs straight down (also could be camera angle or other trick of the photo) but appears to be of correct length. she looks very nice to me. and by the way, dont take those possible comments as rude...it looks like it is merely a photo illusion.
she looks like german working lines and german showlines to me.

Yes I have more, I am always looking for info. and I won't take any comments as rude cause like I said, if she is not satisfactory in looks, she makes up for it in the field lol and since that is all that is important to me at this point, well that is really all that matters to me. It is just interesting for me to see what others think.
I am going to post some more now on this thread, just give me a minute.

panzer426

12-11-2005, 11:55 PM

yes, gsd's just like every other breed have countless defects due to bad breeding. cow hocks, roack backs, sway backs, short legs, too long legs, bowed front legs like a bulldog, missing teeth, too many teeth, eyes spaced too far apart or too close together, no stop between muzzle and forehead, too much stop between muzzle and forehead, and of course the most well known...hip and elbow displasia. the list of course goes on and on for pages and pages.
this is why, no matter what breed/breeds you are considering you need to do tons of research and when you think you have researched the breeds enough, find some more information and do tons more research.

Julie

12-12-2005, 12:00 AM

Here are some more pictures....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/side3.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/side1.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/HorseDog2.jpg

I have some more pictures too, but I have to load them to my PhotoBucket before I can post them. There is also one of her in my signature below.

Julie.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 12:02 AM

I am no expert so dont take anything I say as end all be all as far as critiqueing her. but I would be glad to give my opinion. wether she would excell in the show ring or not is not important as long as she makes you happy. my male gsd is german showlines, if you look far enough back you can find some working lines just as in any gsd's pedigree (for that matter if you look far enough back in any gsd's pedigree you will find horand von Grafrath) and he wouldn't stand the slightest chance in an american showring. the judges look for different things.
by the way, it is indesputable that the "extreme" angulation found in american gsd's is a serious fault according to the gsd breed standard. so a gsd that displays a constant state of severe angulation should be disqualified. a gsd that shows it in a show stance but not in regular movement is accepted. however I have seen quite a few akc show winners that should have been disqualified. all gsd's should show some angulation, but if you dont plan on showing or breeding then who cares.

edited...
Julie, she is gorgeous. she appears to be a mix of german working and showlines. probably more working lines. from the photo in your signature I can see that she does not after all have cow hocks (cow hocks are when the hocks ((really heels, look like backwards knees)) turn inwards toward each other).

Rhino

12-12-2005, 12:04 AM

and the term is "hocks", hawks are birds of prey related to eagles and falcons.

:rolleyes:

With my dislexia I am not always near a dictionary or thesaurus to make sure one my blunders doen't embarass me, which this has. Same meaning, just off by a few letters. Hopefully (and I think most have) people will still get my point.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 12:08 AM

I wasnt correcting you to embarass you, but to inform any new members (members new to dogs) who may not know the term. I apologize if I embarassed you.

Rhino

12-12-2005, 12:11 AM

roack backs

What is roak backs?

And no need to defend yourself. I don't know enough about the breed to insite that kind of defense, I'm only asking because I don't know, and I appreciate the answers.

Thanx for the appology, the written word is tricky sometimes. :D

panzer426

12-12-2005, 12:13 AM

wow you got me...I have no idea what a roack back is. glad I dont have a very big head or it would have just delfated a bit. I meant to say ROACH back. thanks :)

Julie

12-12-2005, 12:24 AM

Here are are some more pics. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I too find all this very interesting.
Comments appreiciated.

Julie.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/dogs.jpg

Rhino

12-12-2005, 12:25 AM

We're two for two in the typo department. :D

Ok, what is a roach back?

panzer426

12-12-2005, 12:29 AM

a roach back (had to triple check and make sure I spelled it right, now I will spell something else wrong) is when the back arches upwards starting at the shoulders and ending at the hips/pelvis area. a sway back is when it arches downwards.

Julie

12-12-2005, 12:39 AM

Do you see anything noticable in the pictures I just posted?

And what color should be marked on her registration papers?

I have been told 2 or 3 different things to mark. Since I am not familar, I just thought I would get more opinions.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 12:50 AM

the only thing I see really is that her back is slightly roached, not badly though. and it is acsentuated (sp?) by her slightly over sloped hips. to me they dont appear severe, actually very minor. I need to reload the software for my camera so I can download some new pictures, emptied my photobucket to load new pics and then it didnt work. otherwise I would post a few of my gsd. he has a slightly gay tail which means that the tip is curled. he wouldnt be disqualified but he would lose points. of course as I said he wouldnt stand a chance in a show here in the US, dont know how he would fair in europe.
she is a blanket back. I bet that was one of the things people have told you, and I bet another is black and tan? black and tan would have more tan than that and would be like this... http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm the pic in the top right corner. bet you have also been told that she is a bi-color? not entirely untrue. bi color though has less tan. here is a somewhat decent guide... http://www.justshepherds.com/colors.htm really as far as her papers you could say either one (blanket back or bi-color) and be correct, the difference is minor and wont be disputed unless you intend to breed and/or show her. actually you could call her pure black, or even white for akc registration since they will never see her. it is even somewhat easy to register a mixed breed as a purebreed. but if you want to be accurate call her a blanket back, not a saddle back. the blanket and/or saddle is the black patch that is draped over the dogs back (like a saddle or blanket). think of it like horses...a horse wearing a blanket (like a racing horse or hunter jumper type horse) has its back and nearly all of its sides covered by the blanket. a horse wearing a saddle has most of its sides visible. a saddle back gsd has a much smaller black patch than a blanket back gsd.

Julie

12-12-2005, 01:01 AM

the only thing I see really is that her back is slightly roached, not badly though. and it is acsentuated (sp?) by her slightly over sloped hips. to me they dont appear severe, actually very minor. I need to reload the software for my camera so I can download some new pictures, emptied my photobucket to load new pics and then it didnt work. otherwise I would post a few of my gsd. he has a slightly gay tail which means that the tip is curled. he wouldnt be disqualified but he would lose points. of course as I said he wouldnt stand a chance in a show here in the US, dont know how he would fair in europe.
she is a blanket back. I bet that was one of the things people have told you, and I bet another is black and tan? black and tan would have more tan than that and would be like this... http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm the pic in the top right corner. bet you have also been told that she is a bi-color? not entirely untrue. bi color though has less tan. here is a somewhat decent guide... http://www.justshepherds.com/colors.htm
Yes, I have been told all those. lol
I have also been told some are just patterns the others are colors.

This is what I have to choose from on the AKC papers:
Black
Black & cream
Black & red
Black & silver
Black & tan
Blue
Gray
Liver
Sable
White
Bi-color

Thats it. What is she?

And thanks for your opinion. She really is a great dog.
Julie.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 01:06 AM

oh yeah, been a while since I have filled out akc papers...she is bi-color.

Julie

12-12-2005, 01:15 AM

That is what the trainer said, bi-color. But I didn't believe him, cause I see 3 colors on her not 2. I see Black brown and white.
I thought bi is 2.
Someone else said black and tan with blanket back pattern which is not noted on akc.

I think this is why I never registered her. Cause I wanted it to be correct.

But do you really think Bi-color?

I am not being rude, but would really like to get those papers in. lol

Thanks,
Julie.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 01:29 AM

the white/grey/silver color doesnt count because she does not enough of it. blanket back is more appropriate to me, but for the akc papers bi color is correct.
gray confuses me. I dont remember it from the papers when I had to fill them out different times, but I see it listed above in this thread. gray is not seen in gsd's except like on yours where she has white, or where they have what is called a pepper shawl where some gray is mixed in above and around the shoulders like a shawl or scarf, and in gray sables.
sable comes in many variations including black, gray, and red. a gray sable looks very much like a wolf.
I see some white on the underside of her rear legs, imagine there is some under her tail and probably on her belly too.
some people would call her a black and tan, understandably because she is black and tan. to some she might be a black because hse is mostly black, less understandable. but if you had an akc judge looking at her to decide what to put on her papers, bi-color is the most accurate.
oh yeah...instead of black and silver option on the papers they should say black and gray. most gsd enthusiast dont like the term silver because when a gsd (like a lot of other breeds) gets older his/her muzzle will start to get gray, only with gsd's (not sure of other breeds) we call it silver. so to a lot of gsd lovers saying a dog has silver is kind of an insult.

Julie

12-12-2005, 01:32 AM

Thanks...
Julie.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 01:40 AM

GSDMom

12-12-2005, 06:26 AM

Thank You panzer426 for your post
great explanation :D

This is my Dion out of show stack, same dog as first photo.
Looks pretty normal to me ! might be a tad thin as he's out of coat this very hot July day

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c224/sunshinebonnie/DionCaitlin.jpg

Athebeau

12-12-2005, 10:18 AM

To me, the over angulation of show Shepherds is just another type of "designer" dogs. It goes to show how the kennel clubs and shows can ruin a breed of dog. The angulation is nothing more than for show, they don't make good working dogs...you would have to yell to the criminal..."stop, so my dog can catch up". I personally think its extreme fashion breeding and very unhealthy. I've seen them hobbling around on their pasturns in puppyhood, loose rears (which are desired) into adulthood and these dogs are winning at the shows. I almost cry when I watch my friends Shepherds trying to amble around the house...and these Shepherds are winning at the shows throughout Canada & the States. It's animal cruelity in the worst state the way they are breeding some dogs....fad breeding, it's criminal.:(

DanL

12-12-2005, 10:26 AM

Interesting thread! Julie your dog is very nice looking! So is yours GSDMom! I don't have any pics of Gunnar in any kind of stack. Here's the closest I could get, by putting his ball up on this chest and getting the pic while he was reaching for it. Of course, his tail is wagging. :) Gunnar is German show lines and was about 7 months old in this pic.

http://home.comcast.net/~danl/sideview.jpg

panzer426

12-12-2005, 11:56 AM

I agree about the extreme angulation, it is bad. The dogs that have the trait when not in a stack I mean. That is bad for their joints from their ankles to their spinal cord.
but in a dog like gsdmoms, you can see the difference...in the first photos she posted the dog "appears" to be extremely over angulated. if he lived like this all the time (walking around the house and yard, chasing a frisbee, herding sheep etc) he would have some health problems as a result. but you can see in her most recent post on page 4 of this thread that his extreme angulation is not his normal posture. My guess is that he is healthy (as far as joints and bones are concerned) and moves very smoothly and efortlessly.
its like the analogy I made about women wearing high heel shoes. if you wear high heel shoes for very long (okay, Im a guy but I am married) your feet get sore and by the time you get home from work, wedding or whatever the occasion was...you cant wait to take them off and rub your feet. if you had them surgically attached to your feet so that you could never take them off then your life would be uncomfortable to say the least, and you would almost certainly develop some health problems in your feet, legs and back. most show gsd's are not in a stack for very long at all.
the only difference I see between gsdmoms american showline dog is that his head is not as heavy/thick/blocky as a european gsd. as for working ability, he almost surely has the same working ability as a german working line (physically), but the big difference (probably) is that european gsd's in general have far higher drive than american gsd's. gsdmom, I'm not saying that your gsd doesnt have enough drive, he very well might, but typically that is true because the european lines (even show) wether bred here or europe are usually bred for ability more than looks.

Rhino

12-12-2005, 02:02 PM

This has been most interesting. Thanx guys!

Jynx

12-12-2005, 06:57 PM

GSDMom just wanted to say your gsd's are gorgeous..Julie, your pooch is gorgeous as well, but I have to disagree that she would be considered a bi-color..A bi color is just that, two colors, a bi color gsd, (and I have one *vbg*) is predominantly black, with usually, a tan/dark brown/red coloring on lower portions of the leg, they also may have small tan/dark brown/red patches on the face to be considered a bi..This is my "Dodge" who is a bicolor http:// www.angelfire.com/ct/jakoda/dodge.html .

I would say yours would be reg'd as either black/tan or if she's more silver than tan, black/silver. She looks alot like my 'czech' girl but she definately has to much color other than black, to be called a bi color.

Happy Holidays
Diane

Jynx

12-12-2005, 06:59 PM

actually I just tried my "link" and it didn't work!
try this and click into Dodge
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/jakoda

Julie

12-12-2005, 09:15 PM

actually I just tried my "link" and it didn't work!
try this and click into Dodge
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/jakoda

Thanks for the input.
I clicked on your link which took me to your site.
But the Dodge link did not work.:(

I would love to see a pic though.:D

Julie.

Zoom

12-12-2005, 09:36 PM

This has been an incredibly interesting thread! I know very, very little about GSD's so thanks to everyone who posted! Looking at all those links has solidified my opinion that I really don't like the current show stance. I like the more natural look from back in the '60's. Also, those first progenators of the GSD lines do look quite different from the modern ones! Maybe it's just that we've bred for specific coat colors and all, but I can't think of any that I've seen that have that mottled "wolf color" looking coat that Horand had.

Did anyone else notice in Horand's pedigree, one of his forebearers was a white GSD? Interesting to me anyway.

Julie

12-12-2005, 10:01 PM

no problem. did I understand you correctly? she is a police dog? Im not doubting you, just curious because you werent sure of her background, said you were told she was german working lines. I thought all of the police departments and federal agencies were importing dogs from germany, czech republic and belgium on their own. where did she come from?
in 1985 when I was only 6 years old my parents had to give up a gsd mix that my dad rescued from a co worker. it was her sons dog and he went off to college (I think, long time since I heard the story) and the dog lived on a chain about 6 feet long under their deck. my dad told her after hearing this that she could give it to him or she could give it to animal control after he called them. truthfully I doubt they would have taken it since it was being fed, had a dog house, had fresh water and was getting regular vet checks. anyway, we had the dog for maybe 6 months and he was perfectly obedient on leash but off leash he would vanish in a second. and to make it worse he could easily hop the fence which was 6 or 7 feet tall. not sure how my dad new him but the guy who adopted him from us was a police officer and he became a k-9 partner for him.
anyway my point was that I didnt think any american police departments did that anymore, thought they all imported them now.

Well I guess all Police Dept's are not importing directly from where you mentioned. As a matter of fact I know a couple narcotic only dogs that are pound rescues. And trained after rescue. And another certified patrol dog that has no background at all.

The breeder (I think I said trainer before, but it was the breeder that told me this, oops). The breeder said her father was a police k-9 coming directly from Germany working lines. I am not sure about the mother. So more than likely she has some German working bloodlines but then mixed with American or something else. I am just really not educated enough to even talk about this in general.

When we got her my husband and son (5 years at the time) met with breeder and trainer together. Our main concern was her reactions to our children. She passed with flying colors. The breeder gave the trainer the Akc papers and he handed them to my husband and said he had no use for those, I guess he believes in an individual dogs ability not putting importance on
where they came from.

But Rocket passed her tests for drive and working capability.

So I still have her puppy registration papers for Akc, I don't have her pedigree yet, but when I send them in I will have more information.

Actually she was training with my husband(after months of training with the trainer) for only one week and they had to cert to be able to work on the streets and they passed with lots of great comments referring to them working so great together.

She was certified in narcotics, tracking, apprehension, and protection, which qualifies her as a patrol dog. So, because she fits in so great with our family, and does her job equally well, I just am not so concerned about her physical attributes, although it is very interesting, thats why I asked.

And again to answer your question, not all law enforcement agencies have their dogs imported. But I live in WV, I do not know what other states do. But I would be inclined to believe it is up to the individual departments to buy what they want and from where.

Thanks for your help,
Julie.

panzer426

12-12-2005, 11:24 PM

thats really interesting, I wasnt doubting you just wanted to know. I had never talked to anyone in the police departments who said all departments were importing...just seemed that way so I assumed that was how every department was aquiring their german shepherds. thats really interesting.
as for the color disagreement, it all depends on perspective. the difference between a black and tan and a bi color is cloudy. some would say she is a bi color, others would say black and tan/silver. I'm not a judge but I have seen a lot of dogs judged and from what I have seen I would expect an american judge to consider her a bi color. I actually even saw a disagreement between a judge and a breeder/handler about the color of a certain dog (not at a real show). the judge was very certain that this particular dog was nothing other than a black and tan and would not admit she was wrong...the dog was inarguably a red sable. the coat was darker around the back as a saddle but he was a sable dog. after another judge who apparently had a little more experience the original judge finally stopped arguing but you could tell she was not happy and didnt agree. this was at a schutzhund club meeting and two judges just happened to be members of the club. they werent showing or judging the dog on this day.
like I said earlier, you can pretty much call her almost anything. black and tan, black and silver, bi color...akc wont know and no matter which you choose some will agree with you and some will disagree. I do know that if you really want to know for sure what akc's opinion is you can look at www.akc.com and find a gsd club in your area or atleast in your state, contact someone in that club (president/director) and they might allow you to email them a picture of her and then they could tell you their opinion.
sables are actually quite common (horands coloring), but not as desirable among american showline gsd's. you see them most in german and czech working lines. here are a few photos... http://community.webshots.com/album/63484797SsreaU (a black sable)

http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html (this one is a pretty good page as far as examples of the various colors, scroll half way down to see the sables)

http://www.nwk9.com/type_comparison.htm (this page has a couple of sables)

if I ever get a scanner I will post a few pics of my last gsd, he was a red sable.

Zoom

12-13-2005, 12:20 AM

Great links panzer, i put that one right next to the page detailing different colors in border collies.

12-13-2005, 01:54 AM

I see a lot of Shepherds and dogs with even the steepest croups still get around. Their backs are part of what give them the reach and drive in their gait, which is crucial to the breed. (Not only for the show ring, but for their job as well. A herding dog should move smoothly, effortlessly and cover a lot of ground in a single stride.)

I credit the extremely steep slope to the toplines of some of these dogs, to the way they are handled. A GSD will not free-stack to such an extreme pose without extensive training. "Overstacking" is apparently just the way GSDs are presented for show, I don't exactly know why.

Julie, I'm not an expert on shepherd conformation and couldn't give you an 'expert opinion' on your pretty girl but I had to comment on Rocket's pasterns and feet... They look fabulous! Good feet/pasterns are -so- rare in the breed.

Julie

12-13-2005, 08:13 AM

Thanks everyone, this has been a fun thread.
Julie.

Jynx

12-13-2005, 06:23 PM

I'll try to post a pic,,,but bear with me I'm pretty computer illiterate LOL
diane

Jynx

12-15-2005, 06:13 PM

well seems my website is kaput..here's a pic of my black bi, tho not a good one, but you get the gist,,he's totally black, with all feet looking like the one sticking over the fence..
http://forums.doghobbyist.com/view.php?id=108326,108326

Hope it works
diane

panzer426

12-15-2005, 07:29 PM

hey, I just talked to my old trainer who was also the breeder of my first gsd, leader of my first schutzhund club, and my mentor for many years. she said that the defining line between a black and tan and a bi-color is this... if the tan on the feet extends up too 3 inches above the arm pit onto the dogs shoulder it is a bi-color...if the tan/silver etc extends more than 3 inches onto the shoulder/above the arm pit it is a black and tan.
oh yeah...Jynx, gorgeous dog. his face looks a little too happy to beleive the sign though. where did you get that sign? dont know if I would put it on my gate but would deffinetly be a wall hanger at least, I love it.

DanL

12-15-2005, 07:40 PM

Panzer, the would you consider this a black and tan or a bi color?

http://home.comcast.net/~danl/9months1.jpg

panzer426

12-15-2005, 07:46 PM

from what she told me I would say bi-color. her ex husband when we lived in the same states and I got into gsd's through her, was a akc judge. from my experience there seems to be descrepency even amongst akc judges on where the line is drawn. seems I remember something about tan markings on the face making a difference too but I dont know. I will ask her and see what she says.

sheps4me

12-15-2005, 08:27 PM

Panzer, the would you consider this a black and tan or a bi color?

http://home.comcast.net/~danl/9months1.jpg

Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I'd definitely say black and tan ;) He's very handsome. Looks very similar to my guy.

yuckaduck

12-15-2005, 08:34 PM

Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I'd definitely say black and tan ;) He's very handsome. Looks very similar to my guy.
He kinda has the same markings a yuck and he is registered black and tan.

Julie

12-15-2005, 08:40 PM

Here are are some more pics. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I too find all this very interesting.
Comments appreiciated.

Julie.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/dogs.jpg

Here are some more pictures....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/side3.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/side1.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/jul_leee/HorseDog2.jpg

I have some more pictures too, but I have to load them to my PhotoBucket before I can post them. There is also one of her in my signature below.

Julie.

Anyone else have an opinion? bi-color or black & tan?
Not that I didn't believe any certain person, but again I have a couple different opinions.
Just trying to get a majority to agree. lol

This just all seems too broad, are there certain rules on identfiying a color?

Thanks again,
and I did appriciate all those that helped me.

Julie.

Chynabell

12-16-2005, 02:49 PM

A bi-colour is essentially a black dog with tan markings on the feet and under the base of the tail. Sometimes you'll see just a touch of tan on the chest and, cheeks and eyebrows. The belly and underchest hair will be black. Some dogs will have more tan up the legs, or larger or smaller chest and face splashes. Bi-colour is actually a pattern, seen in other dogs, such as Dobermans and Rotties.

panzer426

12-16-2005, 02:56 PM

I just checked my first gsd's papers (had to find them in the back of the filing cabinet). I got him when he was 9 months old and he was registered as a bi-color, looked somewhere between your dog Julie and DanL's dog. I am not arguing with anyone, just going by what I have been told by people I respect who could be wrong. I can say that my first gsd was in a couple of shows but they were not akc shows, they were fun shows at schutzhund events (the judges were akc judges and akc show handlers) and there was never any arguments or questions about his registration/color.
like I said, contact a AKC representative and email them a picture and ask what they would call him/her. if you ask 4 of them you will probably get atleast 2 different answers...atleast thats how it seems to me from everything I have ever been told in my 15 years in GSD's.

DanL

12-16-2005, 03:49 PM

It seems logical that a bi-color would have only 2 colors, hence the name, bi-color. :) Black and tan is probably more generic and covers a dog like mine who is mostly black and tan but has the silvery hair on his chest and belly and inside of his legs. I'm pretty sure mine is marked as black and tan on his papers.

Chynabell

12-16-2005, 04:58 PM

Bi-Colour is a pattern in which the 'saddle' covers most of the body, leaving markings only on feet and sometimes face. Here's a couple of pictures of bi-colour GSDs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/khurley/Ron3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/khurley/120jedda202f.jpg

Jynx

12-16-2005, 07:46 PM

Chynabell has described a bi perfectly,,and the pic above is a bi color..(and pretty handsome dude! *vbg)...

I still stand behind julie's dog being a black & probably silver...the other dog posted,,I would not say a bicolor, but would say a black & tan/red (also gorgeous I might add)

Panzer,,the sign in that pic gosh can't remember where I picked it up,,and yes, Dodge, in it, is rather a joke, since he wouldn't hurt a bug LOL..Dodge is a cross between ddr lines, (grandsire is zorro/sire klockow's wasdy import), and mom was an american show line.

I showed him for awhile in the akc conformation ring , he was my "reserve" king *vbg*..At 3, I decided I wanted to put his brains back where they should be and neutered him..He is my first bi color, and while I've always gone towards the black/red dogs,,I must say he is striking and I love the coloring of the bi's..
Diane