Proper way to stop play biting/nipping??

[Ruckus]

What is the proper way to stop my puppy from play biting/nipping? He doesnt bite hard, but just play biting (which are starting to hurt since his teeth are sharp). He bites whens he's frustrated or too excited.

My trainer says to spray bitter apple on everthing he bites. If he bites me (my clothes), stuff a cotton ball soaked with bitter apple in his mouth and hold it there for like 25 seconds. I tried each and everytime he bites me, but it isnt working. Now whenever he bites, I clamp his jaws shut and claw my fingers into his back/neck (like teeth biting down). Is there a better way to correct his behavior?

[Chithedobe]

Hi Ruckus,

This topic is currently being discussed in another thread :-)

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14488

Maybe some of these ideas will help :-)

Incidentally, my pup views bitter apple much as I view ketchup :-)

[amymarley]

Please don't think I am talking bad about your trainer. I don't know you or your trainer, just what you wrote. I don't like the advice (which you don't have to agree with, but since you posted, I am just giving my 2 cents). First off, puppies are puppies until about 2 years old. Biting and nipping is natural in the pack and puppy play. They are teething and don't understand like a 4 year old dog would. Putting bitter apple on certain things (like furniture, antiques, etc...is acceptable), but not on everything, your pup should have various toys to "teethe" on. When the toys get boring, they will then turn to you to bite on. Much more fun....haha.
What ever else your trainer is telling you, the cotton ball in the mouth with bitter apple is in NO way teaching your puppy not to do what is natural to him/her, which is teething. That is absurd. Sorry. You may want a second opinion from another trainer. (I also am an animal trainer). Bottom line, there is just no constructive, postive reason for the cotton ball thing, I am floored to even hear of that. Good luck to you and your baby.
Amy

[Ruckus]

my trainer is the one from Petsmart , you know the $99 8 week course, so im not expecting much expertise from them. thats why i posted in this forum.

i already stopped with the cotton ball soaked with bitter apple method (suggested by Petsmart trainer), so now he recommends clamping his muzzle shut. what you say makes sense. they are puppies and they are doing what they do naturally. the main thing is i dont want him biting me/people, is there anything i can do to let him know that bitting/teething me/people is wrong, but you can still bite/teeth other things? what would you recommend i do if he bites me/people?

[Chithedobe]

Going by the breed mix you have listed on your Dogster page, I'm thinking that working with Ruckus isn't going to be like working with your average dog. 75% wolf? Have you spoke at length with his breeder? He is a beautiful pup but I really think you have got your hands full and you are going to have to find a quality experienced obedience instructor.
Initially though, to curb the unwanted biting/nipping, my suggestion is to make sure you redirect him every time he bites. He nips you, you say "ouch" pretty loud, hand him one of his toys and praise him for chewing on it.
As pointed out in the other thread, make sure that he doesn't have too many toys. It gets confusing for a young pup to distinguish his toys from your shoes and socks <g>. I would say 2 or 3 toys tops. But make sure they are always available to him. Hope this helps at least some. Good luck finding a trainer...
Here is a link to the American Pet Dog Trainers Association. You can do a search there for a trainer in your area that abides by their regulations...
http://www.apdt.com/

[amymarley]

Again, from another post I HATE PETSMART.... I would love to have the phone number to "this trainer" only to get some aggression off. Keep chew toys, reward when he/she is doing good, expect some nipping/bitting for awhile, it's natural. It's what they do with their litter mates. Yes, it sucks, and can hurt..puppy teeth are sharp.

BUT, then again you signed up for it, so you can take it I am sure. It will stop, I promise.... Keep the good vibes and positive reinforsement going. Take the advice from people here and incorporate it to fit you and your pups needs. Get out of PetSmart and find a real trainer. Those people at PetCo and PetSmart are not real trainers. Maybe they are good for is puppy socializaion, but beyond that, no way. I will help in any way I can. Just email me with specific behaviors, and what you want to accomplish. Take care.

[amymarley]

Also, just want to state, just because your PUPPY is biting now, does NOT mean he is going to be a biter. Get that out your head. He/she is just doing what is natural right now, that is all.

[Lexus]

Can I please reiterate that animalbiz... Just because your puppy is biting now now, does NOT mean he is going to be a biter!! That really isn't directed at you Ruckus, just so many people are told that and it drives me nuts!!

Like Chi said, redirect. That is really the very best course of action, screech OUCH (screeching it really gets their attention, like they had bit another littermate too hard) turn away for about half a minute or so and ignore them(just a very short time for a young pup). Then give then the toy. By doing this, you're teaching your pup that if he nips too hard "....hmmm funtimes over...boring. Ahhh, but the toy is great! Lets bite the toy instead-that only leads to more fun!" Make sure you give Ruckus the toy throughout the day at several times too, not just after he catches your hand. And play with it with him, bring that toy to life for him! Let him shake it and tug away and growl while he's pulling. All totally natural behaviour!

*pretty much everything that Chi said.... opps sorry for sounding like a broken record!*

[Angelique]

Yes indeed, puppies and young dogs tend to use their mouths and teeth a lot! Well, I guess that's what you do, when you don't have hands.

It's okay to let your pup know when you don't like them biting you. I tend not to use the loud "OUCH" or any shrill sounds, when I mean business, though. This is where I tend to differ a bit, from the advice most folks would give. I always keep my vocal tones low and direct, when I want a dog's attention. I would also use a bit of eye contact to get my point across.

A lot of what a dog can understand, depends on their age. Be direct, and then redirect. Many people avoid direct communication with their dog in favor of conditioning. Dogs understand a lot more than they are given credit for.

If your dog is indeed a wolf hybrid, I hope you understand most folks cannot handle these animals, once they reach maturity.

[Chithedobe]

Angelique,
I like how you put that... Be direct, and then redirect. Very concise :-)
I can also understand the reason for keeping your voice low rather than shrill. I think I've always resorted to shrill to get the pups attention immediately. But, then again, how often do I speak with a shrill voice in a public situation when I need her attention? Sort of a catch 22 for the pup, I suppose... Thank you :-)

[Angelique]

Angelique,
I like how you put that... Be direct, and then redirect. Very concise :-)
I can also understand the reason for keeping your voice low rather than shrill. I think I've always resorted to shrill to get the pups attention immediately. But, then again, how often do I speak with a shrill voice in a public situation when I need her attention? Sort of a catch 22 for the pup, I suppose... Thank you :-)

Thanks yourself!:)

Catch 22 is right! Another area I've run into this, is when people move too quickly physically, in dealing with a pup's "mistake". The common belief is that you only have a brief amount of time for a dog to connect their behavior, with some sort of redirection or correction. Moving swiftly, can come off as lack of calm control on our part, in the dog's eyes. Swift movement can also make a dog nervous, or even make them freeze up.

Tricky ground sometimes, dealing with an issue in a timely manner so that your dog connects their behavior with your action, yet appearing calm and in control at the same time!

[Doberluv]

I find that social isolation works wonders. They HATE being ignored and having all the fun end. And you don't have to scold or speak or look at them. They find out what kind of mouthing (gentle, no pressure with their teeth) gets them the good stuff; praise, affection, TREATS and what behavior; ouchie biting... doesn't get them the thing they like best; your attention. It's all over. Weah, weah...A chew toy should be replaced so they have something they can teeth on. But you, their living, breathing world is out of their life for a couple of minutes. LOL.

[Chithedobe]

Thanks yourself!:)

Catch 22 is right! Another area I've run into this, is when people move too quickly physically, in dealing with a pup's "mistake". The common belief is that you only have a brief amount of time for a dog to connect their behavior, with some sort of redirection or correction. Moving swiftly, can come off as lack of calm control on our part, in the dog's eyes. Swift movement can also make a dog nervous, or even make them freeze up.

Tricky ground sometimes, dealing with an issue in a timely manner so that your dog connects their behavior with your action, yet appearing calm and in control at the same time!

Absolutely agree with the "moving swiftly" bit. Had huge problems when I instructed my daughter what do to when Chi was very young and nippy. She's a kid, had no concept that the whiny "Nooooooooooo" and flailing hands were all puppy signals to play and chase the flailing hands LOL. After maybe 5 minutes of having her try to redirect the pup, I buckled down and resolved to step in every time they were playing. Guess I can mark that up to a "live and learn" situation :-)

[amymarley]

I thought you had a domesticated pet, etc... I guess you can't guarantee that the dog will not be a biter...but stats show most won't. Now if this dog is majority wolf, that's a whole different subject...
If you indeed have a 75% wolf on your hands, you REALLY need a good trainer, not one from PetSmart. Sorry if I didn't read all the above, but most pups will nip and bite, but grow out of it. If they don't there are so many factors involved.... breed, temperment, the owners, the dog in general and the behavior modification involved. I just hope most owners aquire a dog that they can handle before they get them, if they do get them, and problems arise, then get really good training and advice.
Amy

[yuckaduck]

75% wolf--- you are dealing with a wild animal not a domisticated dog, not a pet. Time to bring in a good trainer of wolves not just a dog person.

[Ruckus]

75% wolf--- you are dealing with a wild animal not a domisticated dog, not a pet. Time to bring in a good trainer of wolves not just a dog person.

to each his own. :D

my "wild animal" is actually very gentle and people friendly. What an ignorant blatant statement saying he's not a pet :rolleyes: . many fellow wolf dog owners here gave me some wonderful tips, and so far hes responding very well to them :cool: bah, theres no use in explaining myself to anti-wolf dog people, it only feeds the troll :p

[Gempress]

I have to agree with Yuck. No, I'm not being anti-wolfdog. Wolves have very different temperaments than dogs. I personally am telling you this based on my past experience as a wolfdog owner.

Right now, your pup is very young. Young wolves and young dogs have nearly identical temperaments. In fact, most behaviorists agree that dogs were domesticated by encouraging wolves to keep their juvenile traits. But when your wolfdog reaches maturity, given his 75% wolf heritage, it is likely that his temperament will change. And wolves are less like dogs than many people realize.

Please don't call us haters, because we're not. We're just trying to give you advice to the best possible end. All of us on this forum care about dogs, and we want your wolfdog to have a good, happy life. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading in one of your other threads that this is your first dog. If that's the case, you are very much in need of a professional wolf trainer to guide you.

[Ruckus]

if you guys really want to give good advice, please stop reminding me how dangerous and bad he may become (by now, ive already heard them all), and post ways on how i can prevent this from happening. thanks to the people that have posted helpful non biased advice.

i find it quite offensive to say that my dog is "not a pet", even though he may be part wolf, its still wrong to say he is not "pet material". statements like these are uneeded. next time, please just give the advice, and NOT remind me how dangerous he may become.

[Chithedobe]

Ruckus,
If you were a first time dog owner and came here seeking advice with a Dobe, Rott or Pit pup, you would receive similar comments and advice. Nobody is trying to criticise you or hound you by endless reminders that he could become dangerous - it's a fact that some breeds are more pre-disposed to develop aggressive tendencies than others. The advice to seek out a reputable trainer who is experienced in your breed is the best advice I've seen given yet in any of the discussions about Ruckus. He is your first dog, his breed mix gives indication that he may be difficult for anyone much less a novice owner to train.
As far as the "not pet material" comment. Prepare yourself now for a long life of comments like this. As the former owner of a Pit and the current owner of a Dobe, the "aggressive breeds" carry a stigma. It is our job as responsible owners to change that stigma by raising shining examples of our chosen breed. That said, even I who thinks Ruckus is the living end of cute puppies, do not think that many would consider a wolf-dog prime "pet material". Not when we have so many breeds of completely domestic dogs to choose from.

[Ruckus]

actually there are a few people (1 or 2 people) here that are criticizing me and who constantly remind me how dangerous he may become. of course, there are people like you who only want to help and (thank you, i appreciate it!).

i guess ill have to accept that some people will always consider him "not a pet". i just wish people would be more considerate and not rub it in my face. its very discouraging.

[meganw94]

or u could say stop -[not yelling]-then give it a toy

[JennLM]

my trainer is the one from Petsmart , you know the $99 8 week course, so im not expecting much expertise from them. thats why i posted in this forum.

i already stopped with the cotton ball soaked with bitter apple method (suggested by Petsmart trainer), so now he recommends clamping his muzzle shut. what you say makes sense. they are puppies and they are doing what they do naturally. the main thing is i dont want him biting me/people, is there anything i can do to let him know that bitting/teething me/people is wrong, but you can still bite/teeth other things? what would you recommend i do if he bites me/people?

Being I AM a Petsmart Trainer, I find your remarks offensive. Not only that, that trainer should _NOT_ be telling you to do any such thing. Period. That person would get written up in an instant if the managers knew.

Secondly, I do wolf/wolfdog rescue. From your pictures, yours is in no way a 75%er, you got ripped. Many breeders tout their offspring as much more % than they are. If yours has any wolf blood in it, it is very little.

If this other person who posted previously is an "experienced" wolfdog owner, had they looked at your dogs pics, they would have seen you have a low to no content. And would have known you train them the same way. I know I do.

You should get ivolved with Husky and Mal lists who deal with Northern Breed Dogs or a trainer who has experience with them.

If you doubt my word I would be happy to send you a private message with a number of lists to join and let them tell you the same thing I have told you.

[Ruckus]

many people here say petsmart trainers arent that great, so im just going by what they say. i think i read somewhere that petsmart trainers only need to take like 1 class to be certified? either way, i still dont expect that much from them, since everything else in petsmart isnt that great....actually, both petsmart trainers recommened i start using negative reinforcement.

i really hope that Ruckus isnt 75%, that would be a big relief, but their really isnt a way to find out. i didnt buy Ruckus because he was part wolf, so i dont consider myself being "ripped off". the "breeder" probably did over exaggerate/ lie about him being part wolf to get a sale. Even if she told me he was just a Husky mix, i still would have bought him :)



Being I AM a Petsmart Trainer, I find your remarks offensive. Not only that, that trainer should _NOT_ be telling you to do any such thing. Period. That person would get written up in an instant if the managers knew.

Secondly, I do wolf/wolfdog rescue. From your pictures, yours is in no way a 75%er, you got ripped. Many breeders tout their offspring as much more % than they are. If yours has any wolf blood in it, it is very little.

If this other person who posted previously is an "experienced" wolfdog owner, had they looked at your dogs pics, they would have seen you have a low to no content. And would have known you train them the same way. I know I do.

You should get ivolved with Husky and Mal lists who deal with Northern Breed Dogs or a trainer who has experience with them.

If you doubt my word I would be happy to send you a private message with a number of lists to join and let them tell you the same thing I have told you.

[Saje]

My thoughts are that Ruckus is gorgeous and you love him. What else do you need! :D

And a good trainer is a good trainer and a bad one is a bad one. Petsmart does not have a good reputation but we don't have one around here so I wouldn't know. I would only use them for socialization anyway. Just my opinion

[Saje]

This is what PetSmart says about their trainers:

http://www.petsmart.com/training/index.shtml

you are not getting that. I'd complain and get a refund

[JennLM]

I went though a lot to get certified. Taught many a classes in front of the area trainer _after_ having books of things we had to study. Body postures, behavior etc etc.

What may have been may not necessarily be the way now but they still have to go through an accreditation which is way more than 1 class.

You may just have a bad trainer who works for our company. I cannot say that is the norm in most states I know there are other trainers. So I would definately complain.

I am glad you love your dog no matter what, that is what is important. I wouldn't worry about it being any part wolf and go about calling it only a Husky/Mal mix since in some cities/counties/states they are illegal or you need a special permit.

Other than letting the dogs be next to each other on a leash we do not do socialization the old way anymore. Liability issues. Now teaching them with distractions, yes a great place to do it and for simple obedience/potty training. Not behavioral issues.

[rottnpagan]

The only thing that two trainers can agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it wrong.

Remember that. :P

Puppies are puppies, and he's testing you to see how far he can get. You need to teach him bite inhibition. The easiest (IMO) way is to calmly say 'Too bad!' in a low voice, tuck your hands under your arms, and turn away, breaking all eye contact and communication. Ignore puppy until he settles down, and then you can go back to him. If he doesn't listen, take it a step further and leave the room, making sure of course, that puppy is safe. When puppy stops nipping, you can re-engage him.

It's far easier and better to stop this NOW than to let it continue and try to stop it in a fully grown dog. NEVER let a pup do what you don't want an adult dog to do.

Best of luck!

[amymarley]

xxxxxxxx
It posted twice, so I am trying to delete the 1st repsonse...

[amymarley]

Lexus,
I don't understand why you quoted me on that? He may or may not be a biter in coming years. That is something neither of us can know.... In most cases, it holds true. There are several factors that can come into play... the dog himself, the owner, the way the owner is training the pup, the reaction, the reinforcement and several other factors as well. I hate given "proven" advice over the internet, because I am not there to see the dog, test the dog, train the dog, find the triggers that may make him/her a "biter." I always suggest that the owner find a rep. trainer in their area, that you trust and work with them. I also encourage people not to aquire a certain breed, unless they have done tons of research and know how to "handle" that pet. I don't think anything I posted above was wrong. You, nor I know for a fact that this dog will be a biter.... For the owners sake, I hope not. To the owner, just find as much as you can, and do what is right for both you and your pup. Hopefully you both will find common ground.

Take care, Amy

[Chithedobe]

Amy,
I think Lexus was agreeing with you :-) Many people believe that a mouthy puppy is going to grow into a viscious dog. Lex -and me and you too - assert that mouthy puppy doesn't always equal aggressive dog.

[amymarley]

Amy,
I think Lexus was agreeing with you :-) Many people believe that a mouthy puppy is going to grow into a viscious dog. Lex -and me and you too - assert that mouthy puppy doesn't always equal aggressive dog.

Depending on "how mouthy" the dog is.... which can be good (or bad) training and can be postitive when used correctly. I may have mis-uderstood Lexus... Sorry if I did. I my own experience.... with our animal shows, we rescused the "mouthy, ball aggressive, etc..." dogs. They were the types that were great for our shows, and loved to work. As for pets, I have relatives that have part (a lot part) wolves... I have worked with wolves in the past also. They are awesome, but not for everyone. They do have a different "presence" then a lot of domesticated pets, but then again, so do a lot of purebreds... Wolves, bless their heart, just have their own "personalities." It's a lot of work, and a lot of patience...but I would go for a really experienced trainer and work with him or her to get the most postive results.
Amy

[PFC1]

The only thing that two trainers can agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it wrong.

Remember that. :P

Best of luck!

HA HA HA!!! Very funny, and too true.

[b]
It's far easier and better to stop this NOW than to let it continue and try to stop it in a fully grown dog. NEVER let a pup do what you don't want an adult dog to do.


I couldn't agree more. Just remember, there is no magic bullet. Nothing works immediately. It takes lots of repetition to see the positive results.

[amymarley]

HA HA HA!!! Very funny, and too true.



I couldn't agree more. Just remember, there is no magic bullet. Nothing works immediately. It takes lots of repetition to see the positive results.

So wrong, I respect and refer a lot of other trainers....but I guess you could say that about a lot of professions.

I will call out someone (trainer) when I feel they are way off base, but there are some great ones out there. The one post where a PetSmart trainer had a member here put a cotton ball of bitter apple and hold it in the dogs mouth, yes, I spoke up... That's bad. But don't think that I think I am the only good trainer out there. And I can think of more than 3 animal trainers out there that will AGREE....

I have spoken here many times when members have had problems and asked them to consult a good trainer. To me, that statement was uncalled for, but are allowed to speak your mind, but if you are not in the profession, then your words don't speak much, unless you just met a lot of bad trainers out there.

And yes, there is a magic bullet out there...you just havet to know what your doing...if not, it's very easy to poke fun out of someones profession.

[amymarley]

Also, just because you can't "train" your dog yourself (which is o-kay) don't bash trainers out there who don't have problems with their dogs. Don't bash people just because you don't know how to handle your dog correctley.
I know MANY people who love their dogs and just don't know how to do it right.

[Lexus]

Depending on "how mouthy" the dog is.... which can be good (or bad) training and can be postitive when used correctly. I may have mis-uderstood Lexus...

No problem! I was just agreeing with you (and 110% at that!) *thanks Chi!*

[madeydog]

I know this will sound crude and weird but when madey was a puppy and she would bite my wife would put her hand back in madey's mouth then clamp her jaw shut and bit her on the ear not real hard just enouph for her to know it hurts and she stoped bitting after like three times she even takes scooby snacks from your mouth very gently and she is a very hyper dog she did the same thing to bandit when we got him and he would put his mouth on your arm to play and he stopped real quick I think they understand it ya know they are smart he also now takes treats from our mouth gently.
Valerie