View Full Version : Dominance Aggression?
wagginwookie
10-30-2005, 10:45 PM
I have a 6 year old pitbull and his behavior changed like someone flipped a light switch. It started a couple days ago when I grabbed his collar to take him to his chain out side and the hair on his back raised and he snarled. I yelled at him and he growled louder. Since then my dogs just been acting strange. The get down command off the (MY!!) bed used to work in a flash now he growls. My dogs constanly looking at me with suspision like he dosent trust me, when pass in a hall way sometimes his tail stops wagging. Its spooky. Another thing I noticed is he can not stay still. He walks all around the house whining room to room he just entered my room for the 5 time whining while laying on the ground staring at me if I dont look at him he will go stare at the wall for a few with his back facing me. The other night I heard him walking around then he howled, thats the first time I heard him howl in 6 years. I aslo think he might be smelling a female in heat and thats why hes doing the roaming the house etc. I dont have a clue. What do you think? Thanks
You might take him to the vet and get him checked out to make sure there isn't a physical reason for his being so antsy. He could be in some sort of pain.
Two things I'm curious about: 1) why isn't he neutered? and 2) why and for how long do you keep him chained outside?
amymarley
10-31-2005, 12:14 AM
i won't even go there
Chithedobe
10-31-2005, 01:05 AM
I'm with Zoom... Why isn't he neutered and how long is he kept chained? Definitely get the dog to the vet soon. There has to be some reason for him to be acting so out of character... I can understand you assuming that a female in heat may be the cause of his aggitation but he's 6 yrs old, has he ever acted like this before? I mean I'm sure that more than one in-season female has been around the area in the past 6 years...
~Tracy
Whitedobelover
10-31-2005, 01:19 AM
you dont have to answer yourself to anyone on why he isnt nuetered... however you should go to the vet see what is going on... if it is agression it may be pain agression nothing more or less... then agian it may be dominance because you may not have been showing him who is boss... however just go to the vet nothing else just go
Doberluv
10-31-2005, 02:42 AM
I agree to have him seen by a vet. He should have a complete blood panel done, including his thyroid. Thyroid imbalances can cause behavioral changes and so can other things, such as brain tumors or other pain.
Keep him off your bed. Do not yell at him if he growls. Motivate him to get off your bed and reward him for getting off with a treat. Make it as fun as possible to obey you. Don't try to dominate him. Do not get into a contest of wills with a dog or put him on the defensive by doing anything which resembles an attack to him. Grabbing his collar may have appeared this way to him since dogs grab eachother by the throat or neck in an attack. Do not interupt the growl-bite sequence. He is giving you a warning and if you punish him for that, he may very well go straight to the bite.
If there is nothing found medically wrong, then I suggest a certified, reputable behaviorist at this point, to observe how you and he interact and to evaluate just what is going on. This sounds too potentially serious to rely on the Internet. You may need some hands on help. In the mean time, impliment NILIF. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm
Chithedobe
10-31-2005, 03:33 AM
you dont have to answer yourself to anyone on why he isnt nuetered...
You're right, nobody has to answer anything here when it comes down to it... Although in this particular thread the request for help provided ambiguous information at best. Answers to certain questions like, why isn't he neutered? It is in your power to have him neutered? Would help those who are more familiar with behavioral problems provide more exact advice. Maybe this person isn't the one who makes the decisions concerning the pet... Maybe the person who owns this dog is for one reason or another against neutering his/her pet and with the information provided by very knowlegable people here will change their opinion and realize it may be in the best interest of the dog and society to have him neutered...
~Tracy
Doberluv
10-31-2005, 03:49 AM
I don't think being intact is the cause of this sudden change in behavior at his nearly ripe age. A visit to the vet is in order and the vet can be consulted about this too.
And not all people agree with automatically neutering their animals. Not all people who have intact animals let them breed indiscriminately or cause other problems. There are health pro's and con's in both neutered and intact dogs. I don't think the poster should be put on the spot on why his dog isn't neutered. That is a personal choice. And as long as his dog isn't running rampant, producing unwanted pups or disturbing people, there's nothing wrong with having an intact dog. If a couple of vets have the opinion that neutering would solve this behavior problem, then that would be recommended. But I seriously doubt that that is the cause of this. Lots of people have intact dogs and they certainly don't have this going on.
Chithedobe
10-31-2005, 06:18 AM
Doberluv,
I absolutely agree that the probability of his new found aggressive reactions stemming from him being intact is small - which is why in my original post I asked if he had ever acted like this before. I don't think that anyone is trying to put the original poster on the spot - I know that I certainly am not. I also do not think it is a cardinal sin to have an intact dog. I do however think - and am sure that many people will agree - that several behavioral problems can be helped and or completely averted if an animal is altered.
Let me rephrase my original question. Why is he intact? Is he intact for breeding purposes or for show that would prohibit you from having him altered? If not, you may want to consider the possibility of having him neutered - it may not solve the problems but it certainly won't hurt to try. By all means, like I said in my original post, seek advice from your vet.
oriondw
10-31-2005, 07:18 AM
I also think that might be a dog in heat.
When my guy smells a dog in heat he'll be very uneasy around anyone but me.
oriondw
10-31-2005, 07:20 AM
Doberluv,
I absolutely agree that the probability of his new found aggressive reactions stemming from him being intact is small - which is why in my original post I asked if he had ever acted like this before. I don't think that anyone is trying to put the original poster on the spot - I know that I certainly am not. I also do not think it is a cardinal sin to have an intact dog. I do however think - and am sure that many people will agree - that several behavioral problems can be helped and or completely averted if an animal is altered.
Let me rephrase my original question. Why is he intact? Is he intact for breeding purposes or for show that would prohibit you from having him altered? If not, you may want to consider the possibility of having him neutered - it may not solve the problems but it certainly won't hurt to try. By all means, like I said in my original post, seek advice from your vet.
Beause some people dont like to maul their dogs genitals...
There is also no point in neutering if you are even a little bit responsible.
Yeah, and taking him to a vet for check up wouldnt be a bad idea :D
gaddylovesdogs
10-31-2005, 09:35 AM
There is no reason NOT to fix your dog if you don't plan on breeding it.
I agree with the vet check-up, and I'd also start Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF) - the dog has to work for everything. He has to sit to get a treat, he has to lay down to get his bowl of food, he has to sit for attention.
Athebeau
10-31-2005, 09:55 AM
:) Well said Doberluv, I think if they follow your advise they will see improvement. ;)
I have a 6 year old pitbull and his behavior changed like someone flipped a light switch. It started a couple days ago when I grabbed his collar to take him to his chain out side and the hair on his back raised and he snarled. I yelled at him and he growled louder.
This sounds like that silly Alpha training - train of thought. :rolleyes: You get better results and a dog that trusts you by earning the dogs trust not forcing the dog into submission. I rescued a Rottweiler which was like this when I adopted her, her owner used very bad training techniques by trying to be tough with her. It took me about a year to gain her trust and turn her into the wonderful dog she now is. By using the NIFIL policy and positive training only, I achieved wonderful results with her. Once a dog loses trust in it's owner it takes a lot of positive training to get rid of that distrust. Trust me, if you treated me like that and pushed me around if I were staying at your home, I would take it for so long then I would start reacting to the harsh treatment. Your dog has shown amazing control thus far.
Since then my dogs just been acting strange. The get down command off the (MY!!) bed used to work in a flash now he growls. My dogs constanly looking at me with suspision like he dosent trust me, when pass in a hall way sometimes his tail stops wagging. Its spooky.
It sounds to me as if this dog does not trust you at all. You are unpredictable in your dogs eyes. It sounds like you need to go see an animal behaviorist who can show you how to act around your dog. So far I find your dog has shown amazing control around an unpredictable person. When the tail stops wagging the dog has just become tense, not knowing what mood his owner is now in and what punishment is going to be dealt out. The dog is confused. Of course, I am assuming that you are using dominance to control and train your dog. If not, then I apologize.
As already suggested I would take your dog to the vet to make sure every thing is alright. He may be in some sort of pain (Arthritis etc.).
Second, I would rethink the way you are dealing with this dog. I commend your dog on how well he has tolerated your harsh ways. I have a feeling that you try to dominant your dog by being physically harsh and yelling. If not, then I apologize. Dogs need to be shown proper behavior in a positive manner, dogs respond to happy owners better than harsh owners. Dogs are not born knowing all human rules, and by punishing the dog when they do wrong this can be counterproductive. You show the dog the proper behavior and lure the bad behavior into the proper behavior and reward when done right...not punish when done wrong. :)
As far as having an intact male, I have had a few intact males live with me. My current male Dilon was just neutered this year (he is about 5 years old). He was neutered due to shooting blanks, not due to any behavioral problems. He has the same temperament as before he was neutered, except the only problem I have encountered is now that he is neutered he has a huge interest in food and has started a little bit of food aggression with the other dogs. I am working on this successfully with positive training. So, for him, he couldn't care less if one of the other dogs came over and ate out of his bowl when he was intact....that changed once he was neutered.
Doberluv
10-31-2005, 01:36 PM
Why is he intact? Is he intact for breeding purposes or for show that would prohibit you from having him altered? If not, you may want to consider the possibility of having him neutered - it may not solve the problems but it certainly won't hurt to try.
Ah-haaa.....I see.
Well, I can tell you, after reading some studies done over the past 30 years from someone who seems pretty reputable, I'd be thinking twice the next time I get a dog about automatically neutering or spaying right off the bat. Osteosarcoma is more prevelent in n/s dogs, as are some other serious health issues. Dobermans already have a high incidence of osteosarcoma. (I'll post that thing which I found on another forum in the health section.) But the bottom line...you're damned if you do and damned if you don't health wise.
Anyhow, back on track here...medical issues aside, there could be some leadership issues. The dog was defensive about having his collar grabbed. Why? Has anything happened to the dog in the past where grabbing at him was associated with punishment? Has the dog been trained with mostly punishment based methods? Or was this strictly an instinctive reaction? Sometimes these things can come back and literally bite you in the butt. Perhaps none of this is the case. I'm just asking to try and get an idea of what transpires between dog and owner...what the dog/owner relationship is based on.
Does the dog have to earn anything? Is he pushy to get his way about things and then given them? How much obedience training does he get? He is allowed on the bed which is not a bad thing in and of itself as long as he knows his place in the family and that his place is that of a working position and not a leadership position. He may have been fine all this time and may have known where he fits in but could there have been any changes in family structure, any backing down on the owner's part as far as continuing the rules and enforcing them, as the dog is aging....but with motivation and reward and not stern, harsh dominance? (sometimes when a dog ages, owners start giving consessions and letting down some of the rules to give the older dog a break... and a dog can develop a new sense of entitlement)
I'd be more focused in on if there were something that might have lead up to this over a period of time, than whether he is intact or neutered. Sure, hormones can play a big role in the way a dog thinks. But with proper handling, this can be managed.
I would definitely talk it over with your vet. And make sure there isn't an illness going on....blood work etc. Best wishes.
Whitedobelover
10-31-2005, 01:55 PM
thank you doberluv... having him intact isnt going to change his personality lol which is basically what they are saying
tracy try to focus on the thread not me please
yuckaduck
10-31-2005, 02:05 PM
I agree neutering will not change any dominance issues. However it can help in some of the sexually related issues, ie. smelling a bitch in heat.
A vet trip is in order to verify no pain or uncomfortable things are physically taking place. If that comes up clean then a behaviouralist is in order and obedience lessons. Even if he has been to lessons, take him again they deal with these kinds of issues.
filarotten
10-31-2005, 02:33 PM
I say a trip to the vet is definately in order. He could be having vision problems, hearing problems, or any number of things wrong. If he is having hearing or vision this could have possibly startled him when you grabbed his collar, if from behind. This could cause him to show aggression, and possibly, why he is not minding as before. As far as neutering, I don't see how this could relate to these problems. I agree though, harsh punishment could only make things worse at this point in time. Try positive reinforcement.
I was more curious than anything when I asked about the dog being intact, not demanding.
Whitedobelover
10-31-2005, 03:10 PM
no, i was just letting her know she has nothing to prove or has any reason to justify her self zoom... not towards you hun... :D hugs i knew the way you were coming off hehehe... and i agree vet is in order...
filarotten
10-31-2005, 03:36 PM
Zoom, I didn't direct my neutering statement towards you. Sorry if you took it that way.(( more hugs))
Lexus
11-01-2005, 06:28 AM
tracy try to focus on the thread not me please
Tracy was focusing on the thread and not you.
While I hear everyone arguements on either side of the neutering issue, I agree with check with a vet, and as for neutering, my insincts and experiences tend towards neutering. I have dealt with higher aggression dogs that doing so has helped their behaviour. But each to his own, and it sounds like more than just being intact is the culprit for a sudden attitude switch like this.
wagginwookie
11-01-2005, 08:43 PM
I should of mentioned this in my first post. Hes been to the vet a day before I made the thread. There is nothing physical wrong with him. When I took him to the vet I had a muzzle on him, as soon as we entered he went nuts. front paws going 100 mph at the muzzle. Blood started gushing from the muzzle in the vets office waiting room. It made a big puddle. He bit his tounge and ripped his lip. They had to sedate him to examine him. Hes not neutured because Im male and it seems the all the women say is Snip and the males say Shoot. Im reading into it and Ill probally nuter him in the future. Recently I wresled with him and he seems to be doing better. Im trusting him again and he seems to notice and seems more at ease and Im trying to be more at ease.. I just want my buddy back.
Chithedobe
11-01-2005, 08:58 PM
wookie,
There are several sites and yahoo groups that deal with positive reinforcement and aggressive behaviors in dogs. I really think that positive training will help the both of you bond and help establish his trust in you. It's a sad story to say the least. But one that sounds very familiar to me. My parents had a Springer that just out of the blue snapped when he was about six (my father will tell you that his brain continued to grow causing him pain and to therefore go crazy, but he also thinks that doberman pinschers got their name from the same thing). Patches was neutered too - just goes to show that although I do think that neutering helps with certain behavioral problems, I know it's not a cure-all. Sadly my parents did not want to work with him and turned him into a local no-kill shelter. He was adopted out - even though the staff knew of his "problems" and bit a kid. His new owner then took him out and shot him. Even though this happened 11 years ago, it's still a bone of contention between my parents and I.
Kudos to you for seeking advice and help and for being willing to work your buddy through the problems! Keep us updated on his progress, I'm sure you'll make lots of it :-) Did your vet suggest any medication you could put him on while you work on this? I know that there are certain meds that are like Prozac for dogs... Maybe to take the edge off his reactions until you can work through it?
Almost forgot <g>. Was that the first time he had a muzzle on? You might want to start getting him used to it gradually. You want him to associate the muzzle with good things (like cheese and tiny hotdog pieces), not the vet :-) The muzzle could have very well increased his anxiety while at the vet.
Whitedobelover
11-01-2005, 09:06 PM
that is understandable... and it could have been a freak attitude lol which does happen... i got prince in check today he started acting up and i checked him real quick he is intact and well i think behaviorlist is teh best way to go... before you go nueter him find the nueter thread under health that doberluv posted... it is interesting before you go and nueter him... there are pros and cons :D hugs
I should of mentioned this in my first post. Hes been to the vet a day before I made the thread. There is nothing physical wrong with him. When I took him to the vet I had a muzzle on him, as soon as we entered he went nuts. front paws going 100 mph at the muzzle. Blood started gushing from the muzzle in the vets office waiting room. It made a big puddle. He bit his tounge and ripped his lip. They had to sedate him to examine him. Hes not neutured because Im male and it seems the all the women say is Snip and the males say Shoot. Im reading into it and Ill probally nuter him in the future. Recently I wresled with him and he seems to be doing better. Im trusting him again and he seems to notice and seems more at ease and Im trying to be more at ease.. I just want my buddy back.
wagginwookie
11-01-2005, 09:57 PM
Thanks for replys, here he is. I was hoping for an aligator smile. I didnt get it.
Note: He has brown eyes - Camera made them blue
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5448/10005171ln.jpg
Chithedobe
11-01-2005, 10:18 PM
Very handsome boy :-) Who obviously really like his cookie :-)
I love his coloring! Keep us updated on his behavior, it sounds like you really care for your dog.
amymarley
11-04-2005, 02:56 AM
Very handsome boy! You have a whole lot of "issues" on your hands. I know this forum is great, but you need to seek professional advice from someone who deals with aggressive behavior. No one here is going to be able to finger point the problem, or find the trigger response to your dog. Find a good trainer in your area that deals with aggression. Make sure they are using the food/love/postive reward and response. I don't think you are going to get a "whole" valid response here, the information you provided is to vast. Good luck, and let us know. The money is well worth it with a good trainer.
Amy
rottiegirl
11-04-2005, 04:18 AM
While I hear everyone arguements on either side of the neutering issue, I agree with check with a vet, and as for neutering, my insincts and experiences tend towards neutering. I have dealt with higher aggression dogs that doing so has helped their behaviour. But each to his own, and it sounds like more than just being intact is the culprit for a sudden attitude switch like this. I completely agree with you. Intact dogs become more dominant than neutered dogs, because of the flow of testosterone (sp?). Intact dogs are way more likely to challenge their owners and other dogs. In my opinion, every pet quality dog should be neutered.
rottiegirl
11-04-2005, 04:24 AM
Neutering eliminates testicular cancer and decreases the incidence of prostate disease. It makes them less likely to spray and mark territory and it makes them less likely to bite. Unsterilized animals often exhibit more behavior and temperament problems than do those who have been spayed or neutered. Neutering makes pets less likely to roam the neighborhood, run away, or get into fights. most dog attacks are caused by dogs who were intact.
Bowowee
11-05-2005, 04:03 AM
Thanks for replys, here he is. I was hoping for an aligator smile. I didnt get it.
Note: He has brown eyes - Camera made them blue
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5448/10005171ln.jpg
Poor dog. I wish we could know what your real problem is...
wagginwookie
11-06-2005, 09:42 PM
It dosent matter, he died today.. He was a great dog.
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 09:46 PM
It dosent matter, he died today.. He was a great dog.
uuhm okey...
this makes me sick..
not even a little funny.:mad:
Doberluv
11-06-2005, 09:56 PM
A-w-w Wagginwookie, what happened? Did he get put down? Are you a youngster and this was your parents' decision? If so, I'm sure they did that to keep you and others safe. There was something wrong. It could have been something physical that your vet couldn't see...a brain tumor, something....to have this sudden change. He wasn't a safe dog and sometimes these things have to happen. You can't have a dangerous dog who you just never know what may happen at any time. I'm so sorry for your loss though. I know how you'll miss him. But when you feel a little better, after some time, perhaps you can get another dog, maybe an easier breed next time. I'm so sorry for how you're feeling now. But you won't always feel this awful. The pain will lighten up after a while. Trust me. We're here if you want to talk, K?
wagginwookie
11-06-2005, 10:00 PM
It had to be something in the brain. Everyting else checked out ok at the vet. He had seizure symptoms for an hour, I thought it was over. He was breathing normal and sleeping. His breathing slowed down till he died..
Gempress
11-06-2005, 10:02 PM
Oh, poor thing. But at the same time, at least you know that it was nothing you did. He just wasn't in control of himself. I'm so sorry for your loss.
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 10:04 PM
A-w-w Wagginwookie, what happened? Did he get put down? Are you a youngster and this was your parents' decision? If so, I'm sure they did that to keep you and others safe. There was something wrong. It could have been something physical that your vet couldn't see...a brain tumor, something....to have this sudden change. He wasn't a safe dog and sometimes these things have to happen. You can't have a dangerous dog who you just never know what may happen at any time. I'm so sorry for your loss though. I know how you'll miss him. But when you feel a little better, after some time, perhaps you can get another dog, maybe an easier breed next time. I'm so sorry for how you're feeling now. But you won't always feel this awful. The pain will lighten up after a while. Trust me. We're here if you want to talk, K?
OMG are you actually buying this ?
one second he is taking the dogs pic and the next .. oops he´s dead, he was great..
Some kind of twisted.
some bored, sad person sitting here trying to get ppl P offed
wagginwookie
11-06-2005, 10:05 PM
Heres a pic of him happy and healthy... This sucks
http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/6305/duker1hi.jpg
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 10:08 PM
i dont think the dog is dead but i do think the owners need to hire a cleaner cuz they seem to have trouble keeping the house clean and it lookes like the dog has been destroying the wallpaper.
so take the poor dog to obe.class.
wagginwookie
11-06-2005, 10:08 PM
****ing *****, Ill take a pic of the grave and post it. I guess I made this **** up too.
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 10:11 PM
yup thats what i think.
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 10:16 PM
okey let me se if i got this .. you took him to the vet so you know he´s not sick, then he is having an attack of some kind that lasted for an hour ( keep in mind you are sitting here saying he is fine ) then he dies while you are sitting here still posting ?? wow you must be one cold fish.
wagginwookie
11-06-2005, 10:20 PM
I noticed something different about him for awhile now. Look at the date I made the thread.. I guess this is fake too you dumb broad..
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4194/grave2ej.jpg
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 10:22 PM
no you ´ve been sitting here posting for atleast 30 min.
the he dies and here you sit.
not gonna feed you anymore as i suspect you enjoy it.
wagginwookie
11-06-2005, 10:29 PM
He died this morning... Someone asked to keep an update and I did. This threads over.
Thanks to the ones who tried to help
rocco&quiras mama
11-06-2005, 10:39 PM
I f up big time
Sorry
I have sent you a private mess.
Is everything ok between you two now?
Doberluv
11-07-2005, 12:12 AM
Wagginwookie, what's that a picture of? I can only make out a chain link fence. Otherwise it's not clear.
Are you OK?
Chithedobe
11-07-2005, 07:57 AM
Wagginwookie,
I am so sorry for your loss. It's obvious you cared for him a great deal. We're all here if you want/need to "talk"...
Lexus
11-07-2005, 09:36 AM
My apologies for your loss, take care.