View Full Version : responsible breeding?
rottiegirl
10-19-2005, 05:12 AM
Do you think breeders should stick to the breed standard, or completely ignore it because they dont like the standard? I recently spoke to a pit bull breeder who produces 90 pound pit bulls, eventhough the standard calls for 60 pound pits. Her dogs also have very bad conformation. I told her that she should take the standard into consideration, and she told me that she does not like the standard. She likes bigger "bullier" pits. Is this right? Isnt she ruining the breed?
I think that anyone who is breeding should not only follow the breed standards, but also make sure that they are making the breed better, be it temprament, drive, or whatever other traits the breed has. People who breed for looks or color or things like that usually ignore other issues like temprament. You need to look at the big picture.
SHADOW_THE_STAFF
10-19-2005, 09:03 AM
Who decides if something is "bettering the breed"?
I know nothing about breeding but if a breeder decided they liked the dogs better heavier, and said that, I dont know that, they lived longer lives because they were bigger (im making this up as i go alone here), couldnt they say they were bettering the breed by making them heavier? What I mean is who decides that two dogs can be bred, its the breeder isnt it?
What Im saying is that if the breeder rottiegirl mentioned thinks that the breed is better being bigger, couldnt she say she's bettering the breed?
Im not saying it should be done or that I agree with it, im just trying to figure out who regulates it.
Who decides what is bettering the breed?
I don't think that breeding dogs outside of the standards that are adopted by the organizations that oversee th breed is bettering it. Breeding a dog to get a particular color, or weight, or height, and not worrying about something as important as temprament is irresponsible IMO. So now you have your perfect color or size, but the dogs are fear biters or not aggressive enough or too aggressive or any other number of personality issues. Is the breed better now?
SHADOW_THE_STAFF
10-19-2005, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE=DanL]I don't think that breeding dogs outside of the standards that are adopted by the organizations that oversee th breed is bettering it. [QUOTE]
So is that who regulates what is "bettering the breed"? I dont know about breeding at all. If there are bodies stating what would be classed as bettering the breed, then no, they shouldnt breed outside of those rules, for a feature that the breeder liked, like eye colour or something.
This woman shouldnt breed her dogs just because she like "bigger bully breeds" she could be damaging them.
Yeah, I don't know about breeding either but I'm pretty sure that the clubs for each breed are who regulates the standard. I imagine most breed standards have been in place for a long time and are maybe modified from time to time.
I agree completely about the woman breeding the way large dogs as they could have other issues that could be detrimental to the breed.
yuckaduck
10-19-2005, 10:34 AM
Breed standards are set for a reason and should be follow as closely as possible with in reason. I would like heavy boned shepherds but I am not interested in giants either. I want them to be as close to the breed standard as possible, including temperment and size. I am looking for a high drive but that is normal for this breed too. I see no need to venture off on your own and ignore breed standards. I also believe that you need to better the breed and produce reliable dogs for the purpose in which you are breeding. I am breedign for working dogs so I am looking for dogs who can reliably work, otherwise it is not a good choice to breed with and should be spayed or neutered.
Gempress
10-19-2005, 10:51 AM
I think breeders should try to stay to the breed standard as closely as possible, no matter what. I can't remember where I read this, but it was an interesting point that has stuck with me. (forgive me if the quote isn't exact!)
"If you have a doberman who loves everybody, has no prey drive, doesn't bark, isn't at all suspicious of strangers or protective, and is a complete couch potato, then you have a good housepet. But you also have a bad doberman, according to the breed standard."
That's where I think people run into problems with the standard. Some breeders try to make the breed into something they personally would like, instead of sticking to what the breed should be. While I would love a couch-potato doberman, I agree that breeders should try to keep the intense, steady, temperament that the breed was developed for.
gaddylovesdogs
10-19-2005, 01:10 PM
I think size is important - I hate it when I see 150 lb. labs. It bugs me sooo much, because they really aren't labs when they're that big - they're mixes. Labs aren't that big. If their four feet tall and over one hundred pounds, they simply aren't purebred labs.
But if I were breeding, say, border collies (my favorite breed :D), I would breed them the right size but I'd breed them for what they were bred to do - herd. They weren't meant to be poofy, fluffy, dogs that want to sleep all day, hate walks, and have 0% herding ability.
Stick to the standard. IMO there is no excuse for breeding dogs to be different than the breed standard asks. NO breed standard will call for dogs to be built incorrectly for the work that they were originally supposed to do. It is the breeders and judges who mis-interpret those standards and buy into show-ring trends that leads to people messing up these breeds.
rottiegirl
10-19-2005, 04:41 PM
The breeder also says that she producess "rare" blue eyed pit bulls, but that is a huge fault in the standard. She says that the dogs have great temperments. She also admited that her dogs dont have much of a drive, but pits are supposed to have a really high drive. Her dogs look very fat, their stomachs hang! I dont think it is right to ignore the standard when you are a breeder, even if your dogs have a good temperment. How could a person call their dog a pit bull when it doesnt resemble one at all?
doberkim
10-19-2005, 05:43 PM
i agree with what most have said --
what betters the breed is breeding a TOTAL dog, regardless of what the breed should look like, or what job it performs.
total dogs are healthy, structurally correct, long lived, and have proper temperaments, as well as in some cases, the ability to do work.
if your dog is horribly oversized, it simply will not hold up - its not standard, there are health concerns that come with oversized dogs, and it sure wont be able to work, not long.
most breed standards are describing the ideal of what that dog should be, and like RD said, it wont be a dog that cannot do the breeds original function (if it had one).
if you start taking each dog and breeding purely what you want, what makes it that breed?
say i wanted dobes (since weve already brought that up) - but wanted longer fur, and a taller dog, and wanted heavier bone, and wanted a thicker chest, and a longer nose --
so what in the end would make that a doberman at all?
candy722
10-19-2005, 06:05 PM
blue eyed pit bulls? IS She producing mutts?
rottiegirl
10-19-2005, 06:17 PM
She says that her dogs are pure bred, and that they come from champions.
How is this even a question? Breed standards were put into place for a reason, so the dogs could do what they were intended to do, whether that be herding, hunting or lap dogs. Diverging from breed standards only proves that the person breeding has no business doing so, especially to the extent that they are breeding for recognized faults because they think they "look pretty".
rottiegirl
10-19-2005, 09:45 PM
How is this even a question? Breed standards were put into place for a reason, so the dogs could do what they were intended to do, whether that be herding, hunting or lap dogs. Diverging from breed standards only proves that the person breeding has no business doing so, especially to the extent that they are breeding for recognized faults because they think they "look pretty Yeah, but I have talked to more than just one breeder, and they all say the same thing. They explain to me that a person does not have to fallow the standard if they dont want to. But I thought it was just wrong, so I asked for your opinions.
True, they don't have to follow it if they don't want to, but if they don't like what the breed standard is, then why are they breeding that type of dog?
rottiegirl
10-19-2005, 10:08 PM
True, they don't have to follow it if they don't want to, but if they don't like what the breed standard is, then why are they breeding that type of dog? Exactly!! I told them that if they like bigger dogs, switch to a mastiff, american bull dog, rottie, or an am staff.
Of course, nobody -has- to breed to the standard. They can all make their little deviations and label them as 'rare', that's what makes them irresponsible breeders.
I agree that if someone wants to breed for something so radically different than the breed they have, they probably have the wrong breed. But if they can't appreciate the value of the standard in a breeding program, then IMO they shouldn't be breeding. Period.
bubbatd
10-19-2005, 11:19 PM
I agree to a certain point. When I got my 1st golden in 1949 the standard was different than today's in height and weight. When I started breeding I was in the middle standard ... when I stopped, I was at the high end. None of my Goldens were over the standard, but the show breeds were going shorter legs, lighter in color etc. I went by what the original standard was. Ch.Lorelei's Golden Rip ( my Point's sire) was a great big, dark boy and one of the first to be in the Golden Retriever Hall of fame in both bench , obedience and field work. Today he wouldn't even be recognized I bet.
I think it depends on the breed in some cases. Scarlette, as we all know, breeds huskies but she breeds them for work, temperment, health... and doesn't believe in the breed standards because they are meant for 'show quality' dogs which sometimes means little more than looking pretty.
Having spoken for her I better get her attention on this thread incase I'm wrong. :p
But the standard had to start somewhere didn't it? I know that racing dogs come in all sorts of colors and patterns that would never make it in the show ring, and they are usually lankier (though that could just be the racing), but the general idea for the Husky show dog had to come from the original working stock, right?
amymarley
10-20-2005, 01:05 AM
Again, I rescued at least 4 huskies (pure) from the humane society.... there is a lot you out there (breeders). They are so great and beautiful...but just for the moment.... do we need more? This is an actul question. We have GREAT breeders, then other breeders, Husky res. org., humane societies, ASPCA's, and others. IF the breed starts to deplete, then maybe we need more so we don't extinct the breed. But for now and others, there are others in such a great need... after all, the most I heard is that there is no money to be made. So, why don't we all sit back, get the other dogs homes, and when necessary, breed your dog again.
Again, I rescued at least 4 huskies (pure) from the humane society.... there is a lot you out there (breeders). They are so great and beautiful...but just for the moment.... do we need more? This is an actul question. We have GREAT breeders, then other breeders, Husky res. org., humane societies, ASPCA's, and others. IF the breed starts to deplete, then maybe we need more so we don't extinct the breed. But for now and others, there are others in such a great need... after all, the most I heard is that there is no money to be made. So, why don't we all sit back, get the other dogs homes, and when necessary, breed your dog again.
This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Why don't you keep the anti-breeding preaching to your own thread?
Love4Pits
10-20-2005, 01:30 AM
I stick to the standard of working dogs. My sibes may not (actually I know they won't) fit CKC or AKC standards at all because I am not breeding for those qualities some of those qualities yes but not all of them. I am sticking to speed, strength, and smarts not so worried about how perfect their proportions are though.
With my Chinooks there is no set standard hence some with upright and some with flop ears. Some are bigger then others and bulkier then others this is not because I try for it you just end up with a mixed litter really. So all doors are open with that breed of dog it is still mainly veiwed as a working breed. That is why I hope they are never recognized by the CKC or AKC it is the sort of breed that would'nt do well with standards. Chinooks are known to be difficult and sometimes viciouse (if not socialized right they can have major problems with other dogs) their just not born to be judged in a ring.
Love4Pits
10-20-2005, 01:31 AM
Again, I rescued at least 4 huskies (pure) from the humane society.... there is a lot you out there (breeders). They are so great and beautiful...but just for the moment.... do we need more? This is an actul question. We have GREAT breeders, then other breeders, Husky res. org., humane societies, ASPCA's, and others. IF the breed starts to deplete, then maybe we need more so we don't extinct the breed. But for now and others, there are others in such a great need... after all, the most I heard is that there is no money to be made. So, why don't we all sit back, get the other dogs homes, and when necessary, breed your dog again.
Please don't judge me you don't even know me or how I breed.
amymarley
10-20-2005, 01:39 AM
sorry RD....
Thought it was a free forum.
Love4Pits
10-20-2005, 01:46 AM
sorry RD....
Thought it was a free forum.
still you need to stay on topic and not go off on your own rant which is pointless.
sorry RD....
Thought it was a free forum.
Oh, yes, I forgot. You're free to be rude by making completely off-topic posts that you -know- will offend the responsible breeders who bust their butts to make their breed the best it can possibly be. (In a thread that you did not create, at that!)
Since it's a free forum as you say, I have the right to "suggest" that you stop pushing your agenda randomly in threads that are referring to an entirely different topic. We -all- know you are involved in rescue. Guess what? I am, too. But I am open-minded enough to realize that responsible breeders are NOT the reason that people are having to rescue so many dogs.
fillyone
10-20-2005, 10:44 PM
...*Snip*... I am breedign for working dogs so I am looking for dogs who can reliably work, otherwise it is not a good choice to breed with and should be spayed or neutered.
You're breeding now?
yuckaduck
10-20-2005, 10:50 PM
You're breeding now?
Starting in the spring time. Still have a few course I wish to take first to learn more things.
Why are you going through all my old posts? Sounds familiar to global paws!!!
fillyone
10-20-2005, 10:51 PM
I agree to a certain point. When I got my 1st golden in 1949 the standard was different than today's in height and weight. When I started breeding I was in the middle standard ... when I stopped, I was at the high end. None of my Goldens were over the standard, but the show breeds were going shorter legs, lighter in color etc. I went by what the original standard was. Ch.Lorelei's Golden Rip ( my Point's sire) was a great big, dark boy and one of the first to be in the Golden Retriever Hall of fame in both bench , obedience and field work. Today he wouldn't even be recognized I bet.
I was out with my GSD recently and was stopped by a gentleman that asked if he could say hello to my dog.
Dante is aloof but completely friendly so I said yes (Working on that sit for stranger petting you know!!).
He petted Dante for a bit and then said "I haven't seen a Shepherd like him since I left Germany, what line is he?"
I replied that he was German Showline/DDR/Czech. He smiled broadly and thanked me.
The American's have completely changed the way that line of GSDs look.
fillyone
10-20-2005, 10:53 PM
Starting in the spring time. Still have a few course I wish to take first to learn more things.
Why are you going through all my old posts? Sounds familiar to global paws!!!
Don't know what global paws is, but I'm not going through your old posts.
bubbatd
10-20-2005, 11:59 PM
I agree Filly !! I love the old looks !
rottiegirl
10-21-2005, 11:49 PM
Pit bulls that are bred to the standard are supposed to have a high drive and completely capable of working. The breeder that I talked to, is just a fad breeder. She breeds huge pit bulls, because she thinks that is what people want. That is the only reason why she ignores the standard. She is watering down the breed.
amymarley
10-24-2005, 06:43 PM
Again, without starting a war, I posted above....there ARE great breeders out there. So, if you are not a "bad" breeder or mill, it does not pertain to you. Also, in several posts, I did state that I don't want to see any breed depleted, so it would be up to you GOOD breeders out there to keep the strong lines out there. I understand that. On one of the same posts I also stated my passion.... saving the unwanted ones. I asked in that post if some of you could be understanding and see my point of view, since I had/have to deal with "left overs." Yes, I did get me a bit hardened, but what can you expect. Again, I asked for understanding from my point of view. Some replied that they did get what I was saying.
We (the world) have an over population of unwanted mutts and purebreds out there...that's a fact. I also know that good breeders want to keep a certain line out there, I respect that too.
So, I don't know (RD) why you condem me for stating my views, or should I say, you are allowed to condem them, but telling me to stop stating my opinion, is a whole different game.
Again, I thought this was a free forum. You should be able to preach on the roof tops about your breeding, but I should be able to have my say also, and not be told to stop. Again, if you read my above post, I did say there were good breeders out there, so there is no reason to fight with you. I was just sharing my experience with you... How anyone could give up a husky is beyond me, they are just so beautiful...well, I guess I could say that about all dogs....
Mordy
10-24-2005, 08:00 PM
Again, I thought this was a free forum.
this forum is privately owned and operated, so ultimately it's up to the owner to say what is acceptable and what isn't.
just a reminder, posting here isn't a right, it's a privilege granted by the owner who pays the upkeep for this site.
amymarley
10-24-2005, 08:31 PM
(Hit a button and lost my post...so here goes again).....
I understand that this forum is a privilage and can be taken away. That is not a problem, I respect that.
As for my above post, it was clearly meant to mend fences...(which is why I said I didn't want to start a war, and/or fight). Actually, I was agreeing with most, just stated my experiences. If I can learn different from an educated, good breeder, than I am all ears. AGAIN, I believe there are a lot of good breeders out there and I don't want to see breeds disappear.
As for being a "free forum," I was speaking of others who posted and stated their opinion which was o.k., until someone else disagreed. We should all agree to disagree, there is no harm in that, esp. if we learn something from it and make it a learning experience.
The thing I hate (like above) is when I try to be nice, and/or agree or even compromise, some people may take that as a weakness and ride with it. The above comment had nothing (really) to do with my above post. I was trying to get RD's point of view, which I did and understand a little better. I have no war with her. I never called her a bad breeder, and wouldn't do so. I don't even know her...
So instead of trying to encourage knowledge, peace of this thread, and several views, I get the above. I don't understand, didn't I just say something in the last above post that would in any way make these threads productive?
FYI, I am not a breeder, just a fancier. (Er. Fanatic.) I do plan on breeding in the future, however.
Animalbiz, if I recall correctly, I am not the one who barged into someone else's thread and posted something offensive and off-topic in it. I am not the instigator of these arguments, you are. You go into a thread about responsible breeding and bash breeders, and then act like I am the one picking the fight when I defend the breeders who deserve credit as GOOD people who help to -improve- breeds.
As for me telling you to stop stating your opinion, I never implied that you did not have the right to. I merely suggested that you not make offensive and off-topic posts in threads that aren't yours. That's one of the main "unwritten rules" of forum etiquette. :) It was my intention to simply point that out, not to say that you have no right to your opinion.
Of course I understand why you think the way you do, and I understand your passion for helping unwanted animals. It's a GREAT thing that you do. However, I also think that it is a marvelous thing that responsible breeders do, and I can't stand them being bashed out of ignorance. I know, you weren't bashing the responsible breeders directly, but in bashing breeding in general, you are including the responsible breeders. That's where my whole problem lies. It's not with you, but rather with your strong opposition of something you admit you don't know much about.
While I may not agree with your opinion, I respect it and your right to have it. I don't want to fight with you, I just thought that what you were saying was unfair and the fact that you posted it in this thread just irked me. I'm really not as mean as you think I am, just rather blunt and highly opinionated. You are the same way, from what I've read, so I think you could understand that. :)
/thread hijack (Sorry Rottiegirl!)
amymarley
10-24-2005, 09:18 PM
If anything, I repect you more for that. I will agree that my posts are not always written out the way I intend in my mind, but if you will check a lot of my posts, I apologized for that over and over.
Again, I don't like it when I try to be nice, and apologize or try to re-state what I was originally trying to say, just to be slapped with a newspaper (used that before), I am very open in the way I speak and I never want to lose that, but I do realize that I can come off harsh.
I am not mean, I never thought you were...I am just speaking from MY experience.... again, have seen horrors. To be quite honest, the love of my life, my dog Chase, a boxer....is getting on in years. I had him neutered early because I think if I ever want another companion, I would, as always go to a shelter. In my heart of hearts, I would love to have a pup from him, a piece of him. I will be destroyed when he is gone. But, again, I will find another that needs help and almost at the point of getting put down. Yes, I love rescue, but hey, honestly....I would have loved to have a piece of him to live on. So don't think of me as heartless, I just do what I do (no one has to respect that) and you (all) do what you think it's right. I just don't believe that I needed the comment above, when I was pretty much speaking to you. Then again, I don't wan't any wars with Mordy either....
The breeders I bash, I don't know who they are, just picked up their left overs. NO I AM NOT saying they were any of you, but again, at least kinda understand where I come from. There can be 99% great breeders out there, but I will still bash the 1%.
Amy
Mordy
10-27-2005, 12:06 AM
i made the above comment in reply to your insinuation that not everyone is allowed to speak their opinion here on chazhound, which clearly isn't true. however, it is important how you present your argument, and as a moderator i do feel i'm justified to comment on such issues.
amymarley
10-27-2005, 12:21 AM
Again, Mordy... I don't want problems, but I am one to speak my mind. The above statement does not hold true.....just read some threads, even from Rottie(I do love her, but she does start debates.) There has been people who didn't agree, and who were rude, and started crap with her. Just to name one..... So as a moderatator, feel justified in anyway you wish, but don't state that people are "allowed" to speak their mind, and then when they do, bash them, which is what has happened to me (granted, I deserved some of it) but not always, and the others who have spoken and also have been bashed.
Mordy
10-27-2005, 12:57 AM
what do you define as "bashing someone"? people disagreeing? having a different opinion than yours? getting annoyed over rudeness?
amymarley
10-27-2005, 02:46 AM
you now bore me. I did not know you were a mod. until a bit ago....Know I know, and now I know why you are being like you are.
Mordy
10-27-2005, 04:01 AM
so i bore you huh? but apparently you weren't able to answer my questions honestly. not that i expected it, unlike you taking yet another pot shot at me. whatever.
yuckaduck
10-27-2005, 11:01 AM
so i bore you huh? but apparently you weren't able to answer my questions honestly. not that i expected it, unlike you taking yet another pot shot at me. whatever.
You never bore me Mordy! :D I like to read your posts and learn great things that I had no clue about. Sure we do not always agree but hey the world would be a pretty dull boring place if everyone always agreed with each other. I think chazhound is a big enough place to handle all kinds of opinions without bashing, name calling and attacking. Disagreeing is not bashing, at least not in my mind anyway. I have been called crazy on ocassion for my beliefs though so maybe I am out in left field here too. :p
Lexus
10-27-2005, 12:13 PM
I feel that the standards are in place for a reason and some standards, like the dobe since it was brought up already, as been in place for quite some time. I back up 100% if you want a doberman that is bigger, a different color, wider chest, etc... then you don't want a doberman at all. You need to search for a different breed.
As for the breeders (greeders) that breed for these "rare" and "unusual" traits, they ONLY do so to cash in on unsuspecting victims and make a buck. That's the case with the pit greeder mentioned in the start of this thread, she's only after money. She has no regard for what she's doing to the animals. She's going for BIG and different color (eyes etc), does she even stop for a moment to consider the health down the road of the animal, or the temperment? Nope. $$$$
yuckaduck
10-27-2005, 01:12 PM
I feel that the standards are in place for a reason and some standards, like the dobe since it was brought up already, as been in place for quite some time. I back up 100% if you want a doberman that is bigger, a different color, wider chest, etc... then you don't want a doberman at all. You need to search for a different breed.
As for the breeders (greeders) that breed for these "rare" and "unusual" traits, they ONLY do so to cash in on unsuspecting victims and make a buck. That's the case with the pit greeder mentioned in the start of this thread, she's only after money. She has no regard for what she's doing to the animals. She's going for BIG and different color (eyes etc), does she even stop for a moment to consider the health down the road of the animal, or the temperment? Nope. $$$$
Very good post and I agree 100%
Manchesters
11-02-2005, 08:30 PM
The idea is to IMPROVE the breed. Not make it better. There is a difference. For instance.........a great majority of breeds call for layback of shoulder, rear angulation, and for a dog to be "let down on hock". The majority of these breeds today are horribly straight in the front, meaning that when you look at the dog from the side, the front legs are not set under the body as they should be. And there is absolutely no turn of stifle at all. When the dogs move, their legs do not extend out from under their body because of the crummy fronts and rears.
People have enough to do without breeding for fads or for money! And it isn't even improving or bettering the breed-----it is just trying to get the dogs to look like they are supposed to look like!!!!!!!! Trying to bring those breeds back up to par!!!!!!
There are consequences for bad fronts and rears........arthritis, excessive wear on joints, etc. The breed standard is not just for esthetics......it is so the dog can do what it is bred to do, and live a long healthy, hopefully pain free life.