Don't you think there are enough...

[amymarley]

Enough UNWANTED pets out there? Please stop your breeding to make a buck, at least until there are no need for animal shelters, humane societies and other rescue groups out there. Disgusting....letting animals "breed" is a very lazy way to make an income! Get off your butt and do it your self. Don't rely on animals having sex to make YOU money. Over 7 million pets get destroyed a year, and yes, you are part to blame, don't think your not. Not ever pup, or kitten get a good home for ever..... Hey, I know I came from another forum, but I have to speak the trouth...freedom of speech and all. Let's see how long this is on here now that I recall a post on "how much did you pay for your dog..." The right answer should have been, about 40.00 from a shelter, not some puppy mill or breeder.
AMY

[Zoom]

That's one way to put it...

Most/many members on here have rescue dogs/cats/horses/whatever, and I do have to say that you are preaching to the choir on this one! :) Welcome to the board, by the way.

[amymarley]

I have to say I am very surprised...to get such a great postive response. But have you read all the threads? You are, so far the "shining star" I have seen so far while I was "trolling" this board. Thank you for the nice welcome.
Amy

[Zoom]

I've read a good deal of them...I haven't dug into the archives, but from what I've garnered in the time I've been here is that while, yes, some of the members do/have bred dogs in the past, it is for all the "right" reasons and not for profit.

[amymarley]

I am not being sarcasitic here, so please help me, what are the RIGHT reasons? The breeders I know will ship a dog/kitten anywhere. I promise you, I have lived it..... all over the country. I have yet to find why some one is doing the RIGHT thing breeding. EXCEPT that they want to keep the litter, because they loved the dog that may have died and wanted to continue his legacy. AND THEY KEPT THEM. Not sold them for profit.

[bubbatd]

Thanks Zoom for support of my past breeding. I did it not for profit, but to extend a wonderful line with health and screening that people were seeking. When Goldens became so popular and I no longer could breed what I did for 30-35 years I quit and rescued and had those who wanted my pups look into rescue too. I know of many golden breeders who breed for show/obedience/or field quality. Don't put down legit breeders....without them there would be more dogs in shelters. Go after the BYBers and the pet stores !

[candy722]

I would only breed if I wanted one from the litter. I don't do it for profit.

[Mordy]

i very much agree with the sentiment that breeding for money is bad. there is no excuse for it at all.

however, i know a handful of good breeders who don't breed for the money (they barely ever break even on a litter anyway), but for the love of the breed and the desire to preserve and improve it. their puppies don't end up at shelters or rescues either.

here in the US pet ownership is very much part of the "throwaway society" in which people seem to think it is ok to dump a pet for whatever reason of convenience and get a new one to replace it.

another fact is that in cases where people don't own a dog just as a pet but are involved in a particular activity, such as for example herding, field trials etc. - you need a dog that's suitable for the job.

in my opinion, educating people about not buying from pet shops or irresponsible breeders would make more of a difference than laying all the blame on the breeders. it all goes back tothe convenience thing tho, a lot of peopel out there just want a dog NOW, and a convenient way to pick it up or have it shipped to them instead of investing s few months into researching a breed, finding a good breeder and getting on the waiting list for a litter.

[Gallien Jacks]

Also who said you make money out of a litter? By the time you pay for the health checks, stud dog, pregnancy checks, extra food, wormer, vaccinations, health checks of the puppy's and the time you spend raising them you will be lucky to break even, and that assuming that all goes well and you don't have to fork out a fortune for a c-section and possibly loose both mum and pups.

[Gempress]

I have yet to find why some one is doing the RIGHT thing breeding. EXCEPT that they want to keep the litter, because they loved the dog that may have died and wanted to continue his legacy. AND THEY KEPT THEM. Not sold them for profit.

Not to be a downer, but most people on this board do not believe in that either. That is considered a form of backyard breeding. I personally know many people who have bred for that reason, and NONE of them have kept all the puppies. One or two, yes. But the whole litter? Never. Especially if it's a large dog who has 8-10 pups. They're just adding to the population. And if their beloved dog eventually has a problem, like hip dysplasia, they've just passed it on through the pups.

I have to say I am very surprised...to get such a great postive response. But have you read all the threads? You are, so far the "shining star" I have seen so far while I was "trolling" this board.

And just from your initial posts and replies, you seem to have come here with a very confrontational attitude. And you seem to be belittling most of the people on this board. No offense, but that's no way to get across an otherwise sound message. I know you've turned me off, as you can tell.

[Fran27]

Well I agree with the original poster to an extent, but I agree with everyone here - there are different kinds of breeders, and they should not be put in the same basket. There are valid reasons to breed purebred dogs, the main one being to improve the breed and make sure it doesn't die because of poor breeding. There are also lots of reasons why some want a purebred puppy from a good breeder, mostly that they have a certain way of life and feel more comfortable with a certain breed, while when you adopt a dog you have no clue what the character will be - even for purebreds, as you can't know if they were bred from good temperament parents or just for money (the latter is probably the case of most of them).

Otherwise, I pretty much agree.

[yuckaduck]

Oh yeah I am big time turned off too! THere are responsible breeders and I see no reason to bash them. Look at bubbtah a responsible breeder who is very respected here.

There would be no reliable SAR dogs or police dogs or thearpy dogs or guide dogs without reliable breeders for that.


I agree if you want just a pet sure go to the shelter, I did and guess what because I have kids they would not even consider me; so I went to a breeder! Go a head complain about it I am very satisfied with my choice and have several friends who have bought from responsible breeders and are very happy too. I would never get a mutt again because I find the purebreds so much nicer. JMO.

[MyDogsLoveMe]

Breeding a dog for profit, well unless you own a very large kennel business and breed non stop there isnt much profit there to be made. Breeding dogs that are not purebread I think is wrong, but breeding to keep a nice line going is not wrong and if done the right way you keep that breed and the blood lines going. A responsible breeder will make sure that the pups that they breed are healthy and in great condition. I own a pure bred papered Siberian whom I am wanting to breed, here is our state siberians are a rare dog as there are not many here. But also when adopting the dogs out there will be a vigours application and screening process. I want to make sure that my babies are going to a very good home and will be treated like mine are with love. I do agree with gem, coming here like that and blasting people isnt the right way to come across and you may find some very offended

[bubbatd]

A was at the vets yesterday and a gal brought in a very cute hyper blond 6 month puppy. She was in because of a fungus under her arm pits ( the dog that is !) She had the coloration of a lab, but had a very narrow head , very light eyes and a lot of pink pigment. I thought she was a mix, but owner said she was pure bred..............a true case of bad breeding !

[RD]

No responsible breeder will ever breed their dogs to make money. Ever.

Puppies bred by unwantedI suggest you learn more about what exactly responsible breeders do before you say that they should stop contributing positively to their breed.

[SummerRiot]

The right answer should have been, about 40.00 from a shelter, not some puppy mill or breeder.


Oh gawd.. I WISH our shelters were that cheap down here.. the price has jacked up to well over $100.. for a dog.. and MORE for a puppy... lol

Before I purchased my puppy, I did look through our shelters tons.. but honeslty anything I saw just wouldn't have suited me.. so i opted for a breeder. I did research on this breed and contacted several breeders, checked out their backgrounds on them and their dogs etc etc.. It took me a few years to finally decide on which breeder and which dogs I'd want puppies from. So My decision wasn't a spur of the moment type thing.

I got my puppy from a reputable breeder and I'm definately not ashamed of it. you can't show a mixed breed dog in a CKC or AKC santioned show and that is what i have wanted to do since its been in the family forever..[showing dogs].

[gaddylovesdogs]

I will never purchase a dog from a breeder. Never. I don't see the point of getting a pet from a breeder. There are plenty of pets in shelters! You don't need to get one from a breeder, just stop at your local shelter and look at all the adorable faces.

But I think that if the breeder is breeding to better the breed, great!! There are some breeders here, and they are responsible.

[yuckaduck]

I will never purchase a dog from a breeder. Never. I don't see the point of getting a pet from a breeder. There are plenty of pets in shelters! You don't need to get one from a breeder, just stop at your local shelter and look at all the adorable faces.

But I think that if the breeder is breeding to better the breed, great!! There are some breeders here, and they are responsible.


If you want just a pet sure why not if you can find something that fits into your family. But if you need something for a purpose not all mutts can and will fulfill that. I was looking for a personal protection dog so I needed something within the breeds to do that. I also have little kids and their safety with a dog to think about. We chose the gsd because we have always loved them and we were and eventually still are hoping to breed, and train dogs for that exact purpose, personal protection. We will not sell puppies, we will train them and then sell them as trained adults, for the love of what we wish to do! Not for the money of it because there is no money in breeding dogs in a responsible manner. I intended to be extremely responsible and very reliable, therefore I am still researching what it means to be a breeder.

[gaddylovesdogs]

Mutts are just as good as purebreds - I have two. I guarantee if you met my dogs you'd fall in love. They are simply great dogs. They didn't come from breeders, they're a mixture of breeds. Yet they know a million commands (and respond to them well), they are very healthy, they are great with kids (including small children), they are intelligent, they are sweet, they are adorable, they get along pretty well with other dogs, Tippy has some dog-agression issues we're working on but she's getting MUCH better. What more could you ask for?

I have a purebred dog too, and I love her so much. She is my big baby and she's just an amazing dog. I love her. She's great at all of her commands, very smart, very healthy, she loves little kids (in fact when my ten-month-old neice was here along with her two-year-old brother May let Gabe sit on her and Seneca crawl all over her), she loves other animals. And NO, she didn't come from a breeder. In fact May has a horrible past of abuse and neglect. She was used as a breeding dog and we found her, emaciated, terrified. She had been beaten. It took a little while for us to calm her, and now she loves everybody.

[gaddylovesdogs]

If you want just a pet sure why not if you can find something that fits into your family. But if you need something for a purpose not all mutts can and will fulfill that. I was looking for a personal protection dog so I needed something within the breeds to do that. I also have little kids and their safety with a dog to think about. We chose the gsd because we have always loved them and we were and eventually still are hoping to breed, and train dogs for that exact purpose, personal protection. We will not sell puppies, we will train them and then sell them as trained adults, for the love of what we wish to do! Not for the money of it because there is no money in breeding dogs in a responsible manner. I intended to be extremely responsible and very reliable, therefore I am still researching what it means to be a breeder.
With millions of dogs dying I really just don't see the point of getting a dog from a breeder to use the dog as a pet. If you can't find THE dog in a shelter, ok, maybe then check out some good breeders. But I personally will not buy from a breeder no matter how reputable that breeder is.

Not all purebreds can fulfill the position as a family dog either. It depends on each individual dog, not just the breed.

Any dog will protect it's family willingly. Colby is terrier and canaan dog, yes those breeds are very loyal to their families and great guard dogs, and I know if we ever meant someone dangerous they'd get chewed up bad. May is lab and we always joke she'd invite a burglar in for a cup of tea, but I think she would at least bark at a dangerous person. Tippy is like my body guard.

[yuckaduck]

Well with my experiences with shelters and rescues I will never get an animal from them. Not ever! I will always go with a breeder and I will be much more careful with the next breeder than I was with Yukon's. I am still trying to get my third paid for rescue dog here, no return on my phone calls. Three times paid for and three times so far no dog delivered as promised. This is a purebred too, but for some reason she is not here yet as promised. Still holding out hope but I think I was taken for yet again and I guarantee never again.

My neighbours got four dogs from the shelter, all mutts and they are the nicest, kindest dogs. There is nothing wrong with them. I would not want them simply because they are not able to fulfill the purpose I would need fulfilled. By the way, we are almost ready to start our own all breed rescue and I guarantee it will be run much differently then the shelters here. THe fees will be based on what is spent on the dog, spaying/neutering, dogs that require nothing will be free. I want to see these dog re homed not living in kennels for their lives. I am only going to turn away pitti's and not because of the dogs but because of the stupid ban! Every other breed welcome! We hope by Jan 1 to be fully operational, the kennels need decorating right now, and a few odds and ends but need to wait for the money to come in.

[gaddylovesdogs]

The shelter we got Colby from was great - we went and checked her out, the next day we signed the papers and took her. They did a check to make sure she was happy, found a puppy that was delighted to have a good family, and left. I haven't been to a shelter since a few weeks ago, just to look for an application to volunteer.

Your future rescue sounds great :)! I'm hoping to open up an animal sanctuary some day...the animals will be totally spoiled. My sister Abbie fosters dogs from a rescue. She is very careful to find the perfect home for each dog. A man wanted to adopt her lab mix...she went to talk to him and his wife, never got to talk to his wife because she was pregnant and on bed rest. And he worked ten hours a day. So Abbie talked to the rescue and said she didn't think it was a good idea, the rescue woman was a little annoyed and the man was ticked off, but the dog isn't living a crappy life.

[Zoom]

Yucka, that's awesome! Definitely keep us posted! I want to be a foster home and/or a puppy raiser for the Guide dogs programs, but that has to wait until I own my own home. :( About Dallas, I thought you said you had heard back from the lady finally, she had just been out of the country on a family emergency? Has she not returned your calls since then?

All three of my dogs have been rescues and I can't say that I ever really regretted it. With Meisha, my dobe/lab mix, there were times where I wished we had a 'real' dog. She didn't like to go for walks, be around other dogs (partly our fault, didnt' know about constant socialization back then) wouldn't fetch, play tug of war or even really play at all. She was scared of so many things, but very gentle with people and children. She loved being petted by my mother and that was it. On the other hand, we never had to worry about the house being destroyed when we left her alone. :rolleyes: My current two rescues couldn't be any better if I'd raised them since pups. Except maybe Aubrey wouldn't be pulling on lead so much...

[yuckaduck]

We want to get the rescue up and running before doing any breeding. We have no dogs worth breeding anyway. Yukon is neutered and Dallas if she ever gets here is spayed. They are family dogs! Pets no breeding unless something really strange happens! :D

Marc is going to keep his job because rescuing is not to make money, it is to do right by the dogs. There are so many in this area just dumped in the LaRose Forest and it is so sad, I hope to maybe offer a better place then just dumping them. The animal control keeps them three days if they get them and then they destroy them. I am great buddies with the local dog catcher and she would love for us to offer a place for them to bring the dogs if they are not claimed. Right now they have a couple cages in the township garage. YUCK! So it may be a better choice than that! I hope anyway!

We both need to get ourselves trained before we even consider breeding because we want to be able to train ourselves not have to hire someone. Plus I still have a load of stuff I want to learn about appropriate testing and health issues before I even think about venturing down that road. Right now it would be a disaster; for lack of knowledge.

[yuckaduck]

Yucka, that's awesome! Definitely keep us posted! I want to be a foster home and/or a puppy raiser for the Guide dogs programs, but that has to wait until I own my own home. :( About Dallas, I thought you said you had heard back from the lady finally, she had just been out of the country on a family emergency? Has she not returned your calls since then?


She called on a Mon, then called on a Wed and said that Hurrican Ophelia had devasted her. [SHe was no where near the coast or anywhere that was hit hard] A few people that live in the same town as her asked me what the heck I was talking about devastion, they did not even lose power. HMM LIE

SHe promised to call me on the Fri to give me an exact date of when she was bringing Dallas. That was exactly one week ago and nothing! I have left 5 messages so far this week, one ever night and nothing! I also got my phone bill and interesting, she claims the phone number I have is a cell phone; my phone bill says landline in Plainfield New Jersey. SHe claims to live in North Carolina, moved there from NJ due to work. THat is why Dallas needed re homing because she is in an apartment and Dallas is living in a kennel.

I do not know what to believe but since there has been no phone calls returned and there are to many untruths surrounding this, I can only assume I was lied too and screwed. She promised to have Dallas to me before Oct 1 and that is end of next week, so I will know for sure by then and be able to post with out a doubt. Either post that she is a scammer and post her name and phone number, or post pictures of Dallas because she will be here, by Sat, Oct 1.

[Vega]

I will never purchase a dog from a breeder. Never. I don't see the point of getting a pet from a breeder. There are plenty of pets in shelters! You don't need to get one from a breeder, just stop at your local shelter and look at all the adorable faces.

But I think that if the breeder is breeding to better the breed, great!! There are some breeders here, and they are responsible.

My thoughts exactly.

Other then that, just go to a shelter. My dog cost $25.00

[juliefurry]

In my personal opinion I will probably continue to buy any future dogs from a reputable breeder instead of going to a shelter. We had two rescue dogs and as much as we loved them they just weren't as stable as our Hannah. I will always go and look at shelters first, just in case, but from now on my dogs will come from well researched breeders. From a shelter the dog's background is unknown, any health issues are probably not known, who knows how they were treated or will react to certain situations that the shelter tells you they can handle. When we got Shelby she was a stray and they said she was housebroken and very sweet. Well the whole time we had her she never became housebroken, and was less than sweet to most people on most days. Hannah, who came from a breeder, has had a very stable temperment never gave me any reason to worry about her. I will always check the local shelter first but will probably go to a breeder from now on. My situations from a shelter have always ended up in heartbreak.

[Fran27]

It's true too. I know I'm not very trustful of the shelter here either, because they do no background check whatsoever. There's still a couple dogs I would have got there though.

I trust rescues more, but it's true that it depends a lot on their requirements. I'm really happy with Tips, he is a real sweetheart, the only thing that shows he was in a shelter is that he's shy.

But I agree that I just can't browse petfinder and get a pup from a breeder again after that.

[bubbatd]

I trust the rescues too....if a breed rescue, they are usually fostered and evaluated before adopted out, so you see and know what you're getting. I feel sorry for shelter dogs, and would probably look there. A stray might be a wonderful dog.... but I'm afraid I'd really be apprehensive about a turned in dog...

[gunnerzmama]

Have you noticed that AnimalBiz never bothered to respond to any of you on the thread she started? If you have the time, you should really check out all her posts. She seems to have the knack for being confrontational and a little vulgar in her postings with her use of language. She personally attacked me on a site when I was welcoming a new guest to this site.

[Fran27]

True, some people do that.

[yuckaduck]

Do not feed the trolls comes to mind right now.....

[AndrewF]

Enough UNWANTED pets out there? Please stop your breeding to make a buck, at least until there are no need for animal shelters, humane societies and other rescue groups out there. Disgusting....letting animals "breed" is a very lazy way to make an income! Get off your butt and do it your self. Don't rely on animals having sex to make YOU money. Over 7 million pets get destroyed a year, and yes, you are part to blame, don't think your not. Not ever pup, or kitten get a good home for ever..... Hey, I know I came from another forum, but I have to speak the trouth...freedom of speech and all. Let's see how long this is on here now that I recall a post on "how much did you pay for your dog..." The right answer should have been, about 40.00 from a shelter, not some puppy mill or breeder.
AMY
Hi Amy,
1) Welcome to the forum
2) did it not occur to you that it's people who don't take responsibility for their pets that's the reason for 6.99 million of those 7 million deaths....whether it's a BYB, a lazy sob or someone who was ignorant about what dog ownership involved at the time.
3) lumping all breeders into the same category and saying stop...is much like saying 'all the people should stop breeding until world hunger is no more'. At the very least, it comes across as impulsive and poorly thought out. I would much rather see something constructive on the ideals of promoting responsible pet ownership.
4) people like puppies. Shelters don't always have them. Kind of like how people like babies...they don't want to jump into raising a teen-ager - regardless of the fact theres plenty of more settled dogs out there.

Just my thoughts on the matter anyways.

[AndrewF]

i very much agree with the sentiment that breeding for money is bad. there is no excuse for it at all.


I'm not a breeder, and I like mutts so the whole breeding and not making money at it kind of eludes me personally. And while I don't pretend to be a genius, I don't think I'm below the half-way point of general intellect...so - if that logic eludes me, how would the general population (who aren't into a dog community such as this) really be able to distinguish between a legitimate breeder and a BYB. It's sort of like the contracter who's out to take someone's cheque-book for a ride...they talk the talk and a majority of people buy into it. To summarize, for those types of people no excuse is needed when there's a buck to be made - right or wrong.

Unless some sort of regulations come into effect for the breeding of dogs, there will always be BYB's out there and there will always be people who don't know better than to avoid them (EDIT: Including myself at the time I got Jake)

[Mordy]

Unless some sort of regulations come into effect for the breeding of dogs, there will always be BYB's out there and there will always be people who don't know better than to avoid them (EDIT: Including myself at the time I got Jake)

sadly that's true, because the "general public" is too lazy and/or ignorant to make an effort researching what pet is right for them and where to get it - or rather not to get it. i'd even go as far as saying the average person spends more time researching what kind of car, computer or entertainment system to get, but it doesn't occur to them that the same thing might be useful for finding a pet or what to feed it.

i don't see much in the way of regulation going to happen in the US, the "land of the free" where profit is more important than anything else. the pet industry is a huge market and they have a more powerful lobby than people who are concerned about animal welfare. :(

[bubbatd]

I agree Mordy...it's even more important as people are having fewer kids and more pets.

[amymarley]

K! I did go off a "bit" the other night, and I have been corresponding with another member here through email. I think she NOW knows where I coming from. We both "kinda" went off on each other, but came to a common ground. She knows who she is and if she wants to share what I had to say, that's great, but I am not going to go through it again ( although I think I made a new friend.)
First off, I got p*ssed off for another reason and saw some other things that I don't agree with. BUT, I do respect that you also have freedom of speech.

I was angry for one reason, and then went "off" because of other things I saw posted. I first started because I was defending a friend... then other things got me going. I am not saying that I portrayed myself like I normally would, but what you guys/gals don't realize, as I stated in another post.... I have personally rescused over 300 animals for our shows. We had the humane soc., spca's, every other animal rescue group (reptiles and other exotics included, and was inspected by the USDA. I have been through HELL, every animal group was on my a** to rescue their "babies." AND YES, actual rep. breeders would drop off the "unwanted." Dogs/puppies and cats that didn't meet the "show quality" that was wanted. It was very hard on me, and maybe I took it out on here, and if you never did that, than I am more than humble to apologize.

I saw what people did here for a living, well I have been in the animalbiz for a very long time, and though you may love your dog or cat, I had to indure the disgusting things daily that have been done to animals. See, this is a dog forum, I am an animal person across the board...I will play with tarantulas, scropions, mad. hissing cockroaches, dogs, cats, ducks, horses, dogs, cats, zebras, baboons, monkeys, cougars, sloths, and everything else you throw out there. Yes, I was harsh, but again, I live it daily, while most of you just love your dog the best you can, I get calls, emails, faxes daily on so much abuse. Yes, I handled it badly, I will be the first one the say I was wrong at a certain point... but come on, I am not that wrong on some of the things I have said. And, who ever posted that they are "turned off," please note, I never intended to "turn you on." Better things to do...

Anyway, for the others out there, and the "private person" I have been speaking too.... I do (again) apologize for coming off so strong. I am NOT a bad person, or a troll, I am just very dedicated in what I do, not to mention intense... can't help it, I had to live it..... I did tell the member here that I was not going to ever visit this site again, and didn't care, but I do think many of you are good people and really care. Again, I do apologize for going off as much as I did, but I still stand my ground on a lot of topics that I wrote about. One thing about me, I am honest, I will say what I feel (not that you have to agree) but I am always willing to learn more.
Amy

[Zoom]

It's all good...

AND YES, actual rep. breeders would drop off the "unwanted." Dogs/puppies and cats that didn't meet the "show quality" that was wanted

I don't mean to fan any lingering flames from this thread or any other, but the way I (and i'm sure many others here) interpret the definition of "reputable" includes the fact that most of the good breeders have waiting lists for litters that are three or four breedings down the road. I know that one Aussie breeder I was looking at has something like that happening, and this is on top of the fact that they spent a good two or three years researching the breeding before going through with it. If I had settled on this particular kennel, I would have been looking at about three years between putting my name down and actually get a pup. If I ever decide to get a breeder dog, I'm definitely going to go through that one.

I admire what you do, someone has to be out there on the front lines, but to me, it sounds like those breeders who were dropping off the unwanted pups, while probably not puppymills and they didn't exactly count as complete BYB's, still didn't measure up to what most of this board thinks a good rep. breeder should be like.

[bubbatd]

Amy, you have a good cause from your heart .... but I do want to state that any GOOD breeders than produce a pup of none show quality will make sure that the pup is sold with spay/neuter policy. I feel 80% of us here are in your corner... we are against BY breeders and those who sell to pet stores etc. I used to answer many " for Sale" ads and ask them questions as to health screening/ hip/etc etc testing just to make them aware ( or hopefully so) what they are doing. Yes, the shelters will always be full of poor dogs. Some lost, some unwanted, some old and too much trouble. These are where our efforts help.

[amymarley]

I agree.... BUT.... in ANY profession.... there are good and bad, and I have known "rep. breeders" to dump off "unwanted" pups to the shelters. At first the few I heard of and actually recommended to people, because I thought they were great (from interviews and seeing litters etc... and the way they "distribute.") I was very shocked. Human nature is bizare! This was not in just one state, but several.

Again, that's why I was so hostile... NOT ALL breeders are bad, I agree with that. I also believe we don't need to breed for awhile. I doubt any canines are going extinct soon. But again, this is MY life, what I see, what I live... I sickens me. I have to deal with the animal organizations daily... it hurts my heart. Yes, I can come off badly, but maybe now you know why......

Trust me, there are great breeders out there, but I was the one who had to deal with the so called "rep breeders" in about 24 states. My own babysitter, who is awesome with my little girl, has a dad who breeds bassest hounds... he is "golden" to the community, but I know better from her. I already spoke my "say" to her. Look at Child Protective Services.... that is soooo bad and wrong on so many levels and you want me to send love to dog breeders.... I think not.

Amy

[amymarley]

I agree.... BUT.... in ANY profession.... there are good and bad, and I have known "rep. breeders" to dump off "unwanted" pups to the shelters. At first the few I heard of and actually recommended to people, because I thought they were great (from interviews and seeing litters etc... and the way they "distribute.") I was very shocked. Human nature is bizare! This was not in just one state, but several.

Again, that's why I was so hostile... NOT ALL breeders are bad, I agree with that. I also believe we don't need to breed for awhile. I doubt any canines are going extinct soon. But again, this is MY life, what I see, what I live... I sickens me. I have to deal with the animal organizations daily... it hurts my heart. Yes, I can come off badly, but maybe now you know why......

By the way, I am a "so called parrot expert," and I belong to an avian organization... a lot of people there "breed" their parrots, and I HATE it. I was a guest lecturer there, and stated so much. It's not just dogs, its snakes, parrots, cats, rats, etc...... Sorry, I just don't believe in it, and I have several parrots here now because they were "bred" and people didn't realize that they have an I.Q. of 85-100 and live about 60 to 80 years... now I have them, which my 2 year old will inherit. The list goes on. The poor things were a "burden" on people. Again, that's why I work with animals and not with people.
Amy

[gunnerzmama]

I'm sure the person you spoke privatley to feels that she too has made a new friend and is very glad to see you back on the site. I feel for in what you see because I too deal with the ugly side of many people in the line of work I do. Like someone said above..."It's all good." Hey at least you are passionate about what you do, which means you are probably very good at it because you are so dedicated. I personally believe that once you get an animal they become your responsibility for the duration of their life unless there is some drastic reason why you couldn't keep them (ie if they were a biter or aggressive towards your children and the problem couldn't be corrected.) Then I still feel it would be the responsibility of the owner to find the animal a proper and good home.

[bubbatd]

You know Amy, you cannot change the world . You have a cause.. which I admire.. but now that you've gotten into parrots ... you've lost me. Maybe you've taken on more than you can handle. God bless !

[amymarley]

I have so not gotten into more than I can handle.... This is my job, my life, my livelyhood. I now have a thriving business, I lecture (and get paid) and do news articles (and get paid).... just to inform, the last lecture I did, I donated my "pay" back into the fund, so I didn't take a dime. I know this is a dog forum, but I am an all around animal person..... I never take on more than I can handle, well actually, I do, but I still come through....

Again,I know this is a dog forum, but my parrots are AWESOME! They have the i.q. of kindergarten (sp?) child. That's what I wrote a book about, so I am blessed.Sorry to say, they were from breeders, that got dropped off at a vet's office.... I incorporated them into my shows.... they had so much fun. The only one I took as a pet is my African Grey which is about 23 years old. My blue and gold bonded so much to me that I now have her as pet.... A thousand pound, per inch of pressure on her beak and she preens my eye lashes. We had about 14 parrots (orig. from breeders), that were "dropped off" at either vet offices or shelters, that came into our shows... after working (very easy work, haha) now have life long homes. And they are loving every minute of it. I kept a few as well as a dog that I started working with in 1995. We would rescue them, train them, give them any meds, great food, monthly vet appt. and exercise their mind. They would do a few minutes in our shows (like bomb sniffing) segment ...not real bombs... and get great treats, love and then after awhile a GREAT LIFE LONG HOME. Our animals had it good, that's why so many animal organizations tried to work with us.

[gunnerzmama]

..... I never take on more than I can handle, well actually, I do, but I still come through....

I tend to do the same thing too. Though I am slowly starting to learn to say "No" to somethings. This is a dog forum but from what I've seen you can discuss any kind of animal here. I know a few people that have horses. I have 2 cats but sorry no parrots. I am really not a big bird person. I think it comes from too many duck, geese, and rooster floggings growing up as a kid...though I think parrots are really pretty and have heard they are really smart. Ok, fine I'll admit it. I Jenn am scared of birds unless there the little ones eating out of my bird feeders. lol

[amymarley]

To Andrew.... (I have a number 5)
(1)Thanks for the warm welcome...
(2) Of course I know it's humans....that cause the most cruelty and death to our pets.. DUH!!! I don't care what the reasons are... if you can't take care of an ant, don't breed other breeds.
(3) Yeah, I will lump breeders, human and pets alike....but for different reasons... humans will breed animals to make a profit....regardless what they say, why else do it?
Humans will breed, and it's mostly impulsive, will have the tax payers pay for the child.... It's an on going process.... China is stopping the breeding... Not that I want to get into politics... But come on, we have 14 year olds having kids and we are paying for it. Parents/kids are repeating the cycle..... we should know better. I for one am sick of paying for some elses welfare and child costs. I "bred" when I was ready, at 30 years old. I have NEVER taken from the system - EVER. I am so tired of paying for someone else. And never mind the money I put into the animal rescue....I love the animals, they don't know any better...
(4). I don't get your number 4..............
Botom line, what are you trying to say.

[amymarley]

Jenn, you are sooo funny! I had pigeons and ducks trained in our shows by the clicker method. As for parrots...YES, (parrots) they are scary since they have so much power. As soon as I publish(I have literary agents that want me), I just have to get off my butt and send it... ) ANY ENGLISH MAJORS HERE>>>> I HAVE THE BOOK, BUT SOOOO DON'T WANT TO DO THE PROPSAL.
But I will send you a signed copy and you will see that parrots are awesome. They are itimidating, but so cool. I am helping other pet sitters at the moment( in my area about parrots) , so they can take in more revenue. I just love my parrots.... horses too.... trained them, nothing like taking a bottle wine, or brandy and going bare back through the woods. It's good for the soul.
Amy

[gunnerzmama]

Yeah I could handle hiding in the woods sometimes. Honey I love to read so you get it published and I would be honored to have a signed copy. I was almost an English major but changed to Criminal Justice and Psych but I am a stickler on grammar and spelling. I got an A on every paper I have ever submitted when I was in college so if you need anything let me know. I'll help any way I can.

[gunnerzmama]

P.S. The only duck I like is the one in the AFLAC commercial. he he Now he cracks me up and doesn't seem to scary.

[yuckaduck]

I am still not convinced but anyway, No Reputable Breeder would dump puppies anywhere, period. If a breeder has dumped puppies in a shelter or on your lap then they had no business breeding in the first place; they were not reputable. I feel for your cause too, I am trying to get the finishing touches set up on my kennels so I can start a rescue here in my area. THere really is nothing except the shelter and of course most people here dump there dogs and puppies in the La Rose Forest. So very sad, I am hoping to offer something better, than that for those poor animals. No questions asked drop off, which will be over run in no time but it is better then the woods. I found a muzzled yellow lab puppy this morning there. Probably around 4 months, no collar, just a muzzle on! Now that is not even giving the dog a chance, people are so inhumane and cruel. She is actually in the house right now, poor scared thing, I am sure she has seen the back of a hand before or a foot.

[bridey_01]

Animalbiz, you trained parrots for shows? I currently do shows with my three dogs and a little goat, and would LOVE to get a parrot in on the act. I'm very familiar with clicker training (I'm a canine behaviourist) and would love to hear your experiences.
Ironically, I'm slightly scared of those big beaks, and I work with super aggressive dogs all day!

[AndrewF]

To Andrew.... (I have a number 5)
(1)Thanks for the warm welcome...
(2) Of course I know it's humans....that cause the most cruelty and death to our pets.. DUH!!! I don't care what the reasons are... if you can't take care of an ant, don't breed other breeds.
(3) Yeah, I will lump breeders, human and pets alike....but for different reasons... humans will breed animals to make a profit....regardless what they say, why else do it?
Humans will breed, and it's mostly impulsive, will have the tax payers pay for the child.... It's an on going process.... China is stopping the breeding... Not that I want to get into politics... But come on, we have 14 year olds having kids and we are paying for it. Parents/kids are repeating the cycle..... we should know better. I for one am sick of paying for some elses welfare and child costs. I "bred" when I was ready, at 30 years old. I have NEVER taken from the system - EVER. I am so tired of paying for someone else. And never mind the money I put into the animal rescue....I love the animals, they don't know any better...
(4). I don't get your number 4..............
Botom line, what are you trying to say.

No problem. A good debate is always welcome. However, spare me the "duh"'s and other school-yard rhetoric. It's impulsive and does nothing to promote intellegent conversation.

Saying 'don't' has never been a useful solution. Look at China, as you made reference to. They're trying to limit the number of children born, to 1 per household and the result is a booming export of the unwanted babies.

You're right about having to pay for other peoples mistakes. However, we do and we don't have a set of realistic consequences for those who make those mistakes - like making them get a job and raise their children. Do that, and teen pregnancy will likely drop.

Point 4 has to do with the fact that although there's lots of animals in shelters, people will bypass a 1 year old dog in the pound for the sake of getting a puppy.....regardless of that animals need - whether it's the politically correct thing to do or not.

[amymarley]

Andrew, sorry for the choice of using the word, "duh." I was NOT referring to you, just to the situation and the dumb people out there, not meant to direct that at you at all. Sorry if I worded that wrong.
Anyway, I know saying "don't" will not solve anything, but I am just mad and passionate about it. Referring to this and other theads.... I do know some really good, well-meaning people out there that I have met over the years, that do breed their animals, whether it be dogs, cats, parrots...whatever. My point, that I am so poorly trying to state (because of my fustration)....is that I and many others are the ones to pick up the pieces the best we can. Some examples that got me going was that I my baby sitters good friend had 2 cats... 2 femals, not spayed. First off, I live in Nevada, bad place for out door cats that get eated by coyetes all the time. Both of her cats had litters....even after I "nicely" (for real, nicely) explained to her the importance of getting her cats fixed. NOPE... than one of the same cats had yet another litter. Last week she took both cats and the litters to a shelter. It hurt my heart.

On another post, yes, there are rep. breeders who DO drop off their "unwanted" animals. I actually rescued a boston terrier from a strip club, yes a stip club. The valet manager's wife is supposed to be a respected breeder, kennels, nice set up, from what I was told from my friend who bartends there. She advertises all over... He brought 2 of the dogs that "wouldn't sell" to the valet "shed" everynight for a week and my friend called me and asked if I could incorporate at least one of these dogs in my shows, or he was going to "drop them off" at a shelter. I did go there, spoke with the guy, one dog was already gone and he tried selling her to me for $300.00. I laughed and ended up taking her home for free. God knows where the other one went. She did not end up doing my shows, but I did find her a good home. I can go on and on about so called (NOT ALL) rep. breeders, even if they have their "friend" or brother drop them off at a shelter, it happens.

[amymarley]

Bridey.... I could speak with you personally about training a parrot. It would take to long to post on how to train, but since you train dogs, you would pick it up quick. Anyway, birds love to "show off," and exercise their minds. I clicker trained some, used hand signals for most. BUT, realize that parrots are very attached to one person, and if you do aquire to a guardian of one, please make it a life long companion. They get very much attached. Blue and gold macaws are very smart and very fun.... they make a lot less noise than any type of cockatoo...but cockatoos are very funny and love to show off. They require A LOT more attention than a blue and gold. They want to be with you and out of the cage a lot. What type of show do you do? WHere do you do it and how often. I may be able to give you some ideas on a 3 to 5 minute segment depending on what you want to do. My first advice would be to join an avian group in your area and read up as much as you can. Anyway, would love to discuss this with you so email or call me at any time and I will help where I can. Also, most avain clubs...I belong to one, have an adoption program. Again, they also have breeders there (hate it...) but you will learn a lot.
Amy

[RD]

On another post, yes, there are rep. breeders who DO drop off their "unwanted" animals. I actually rescued a boston terrier from a strip club, yes a stip club. The valet manager's wife is supposed to be a respected breeder, kennels, nice set up, from what I was told from my friend who bartends there. She advertises all over... He brought 2 of the dogs that "wouldn't sell" to the valet "shed" everynight for a week and my friend called me and asked if I could incorporate at least one of these dogs in my shows, or he was going to "drop them off" at a shelter. I did go there, spoke with the guy, one dog was already gone and he tried selling her to me for $300.00. I laughed and ended up taking her home for free. God knows where the other one went. She did not end up doing my shows, but I did find her a good home. I can go on and on about so called (NOT ALL) rep. breeders, even if they have their "friend" or brother drop them off at a shelter, it happens.
I find it unfortunate that you consider that to be a responsible breeder. Again, perhaps you really do need to meet a TRULY responsible breeder before you can understand the way good breeders think.

Zoom put it perfectly on post 38.

[amymarley]

RD, and to the rest, I am not trying to be confrontational.... Yes, I did come off strong at the beginning... but calmed down with the help of some really nice people here. At the beginning, when a person (a very nice person, might I add) thought I was just a troll and said that you should look at all of my posts and see how hostile and/or vulgar I was being....until her and I spoke privetly....)
The reason why I "laid out" my experience and expertise and livelyhood, was not to bragg, show off, or try to impress anyone here, I could really care less... I don't know anyone here, so it would do me no good. I laid out my name, phone number, website, email and everything else so that it showed that I was not "some troll" with no experience or knowledge. I did all that for a reason, I have nothing to hide, willing to share and open to advice. Don't you think with all the posts that I have posted, that I have not "come across several dozen rep. breeders" in all my years of working with animals? Of course I have! Some are great and mean very well.... others have the illusion of being rep. breeders and are awful. Again, don't have enough space here or time to go through them all... but just like anyone, policemen, firemen, bankers, DOCTORS, pilots, there are good and bad, just because they can fit the uniform, does not make them rep. or good by any means. That's all I was trying to say. And because this is my job, I have more information than the average person. No, it does not make me special in any way, and again, I am not trying to throw my experience in your face, but I had to lay down my experience in order for any one to believe my posts (which some still refuse to believe). Again, I was not some anonomous person posting, I laid my whole life out there with all of my contact information, so I have nothing to hide, only hope to help some pets out there. oh, I could also carry on about horse breeding, rabbit breeding, cat breeding, snake breeding and so on... some good, some bad.... still unessesary..... I have/do deal with a lot of it.
Again, I know there are some really great, caring breeders out there...but in truth.... are we in dire straights that we need to keep breeding at the moment.

Is there dogs, and right now I am just speaking of dogs... is there such a short supply of working dogs, or breeds at this time, this moment that we need to breed more? Our we as a people, in such a bind that we need 13,000 new litters this year? Are we in such a short supply? I think this last paragraph says what I want to say.

[bridey_01]

I see what you are saying, animalbiz. People will justify their breeding with great ethics and the claim "it is for the betterment of the breed". Even if they buy their litters collars made of gold and feed them caviar and have every possible health check done, they are still bringing unecessary puppies into existance, still supporting an avenue seperate from saving a very needy shelter dog.

[Renee750il]

Something to consider: if the truly responsible breeders call a moratorium on breeding, only the irresponsible breeders will be left holding the health, physical and mental welfare of dogs in their hands. And responsible breeders are the only ones who would ever honor a moratorium.

And, there are those of us who actually do need our pure-bred working dogs. For example, we raise cattle; the Filas answer exactly the requirements of our farm and our lifestyle in ways that no other breed - or cross - does, including keeping the out of control coyote population at bay! ;)

I've got to agree with RD and the others: anyone who would just "drop off" puppies like those you spoke of is most emphatically NOT a responsible breeder. Assuring that the puppies you are responsible for producing have responsible, loving homes and being adamant that those pups be returned to you in the event they must be re-homed is an integral part of what most of us here consider being a responsible breeder. Anything less falls short of the standard.

[bridey_01]

Ahh I'm divided on the issue. I see the need for some of the purebreds (the ones that havn't been hopelessly inbred to the point of dopiness) yet I can't stop thinking of the shelter dogs. It really is a terrible issue.

[RD]

RD, and to the rest, I am not trying to be confrontational.... Yes, I did come off strong at the beginning... but calmed down with the help of some really nice people here. At the beginning, when a person (a very nice person, might I add) thought I was just a troll and said that you should look at all of my posts and see how hostile and/or vulgar I was being....until her and I spoke privetly....)
The reason why I "laid out" my experience and expertise and livelyhood, was not to bragg, show off, or try to impress anyone here, I could really care less... I don't know anyone here, so it would do me no good. I laid out my name, phone number, website, email and everything else so that it showed that I was not "some troll" with no experience or knowledge. I did all that for a reason, I have nothing to hide, willing to share and open to advice. Don't you think with all the posts that I have posted, that I have not "come across several dozen rep. breeders" in all my years of working with animals? Of course I have! Some are great and mean very well.... others have the illusion of being rep. breeders and are awful. Again, don't have enough space here or time to go through them all... but just like anyone, policemen, firemen, bankers, DOCTORS, pilots, there are good and bad, just because they can fit the uniform, does not make them rep. or good by any means. That's all I was trying to say. And because this is my job, I have more information than the average person. No, it does not make me special in any way, and again, I am not trying to throw my experience in your face, but I had to lay down my experience in order for any one to believe my posts (which some still refuse to believe). Again, I was not some anonomous person posting, I laid my whole life out there with all of my contact information, so I have nothing to hide, only hope to help some pets out there. oh, I could also carry on about horse breeding, rabbit breeding, cat breeding, snake breeding and so on... some good, some bad.... still unessesary..... I have/do deal with a lot of it.
Again, I know there are some really great, caring breeders out there...but in truth.... are we in dire straights that we need to keep breeding at the moment.

Is there dogs, and right now I am just speaking of dogs... is there such a short supply of working dogs, or breeds at this time, this moment that we need to breed more? Our we as a people, in such a bind that we need 13,000 new litters this year? Are we in such a short supply? I think this last paragraph says what I want to say.
Yes, your last paragraph gets your point across clearly.

If I ever want a dog, just for the purpose of being a companion, I'll be first in line at the local shelter. I am not ignoring the fact that there are MANY wonderful pets that desperately need homes. I volunteer regularly at the shelter here, I have experience with what you are speaking of as well. I understand your point, but in three years of volunteering and working with nearly each and every dog there, I have yet to see one come through the shelter doors that would suit what I need.
However, in regards to your comment on 'short supply'.. I think that healthy, temperamentally sound dogs with good working ability and no major behavioral issues -are- in short supply. This is why people go to reputable breeders, to buy a puppy from them.

I see your point very clearly, but what I'm arguing is that what you are describing are not reputable, responsible breeders. I don't doubt that you have met many breeders, but I don't think you have met the 'best of the best', the ones that I think of when I think of a good breeder. They don't breed just to get puppies out there, or just for fun - they breed to improve and preserve their breed of choice. Responsible breeding is done out of a love for the breed, not out of greed or selfishness.

On a final note, a responsible breeder will take back any dog they bred - at any age. A close friend of mine bred Aussies for years, she wound up taking back a 10-year-old dog once. The owners were jerks to just abandon the dog, but no way would the breeder have ever let him go to a shelter. THAT is what it's about - taking responsibility for the dogs that you help bring into the world. How can you say that breeders like that are bad? Hardly ANY dogs from truly responsible breeders wind up abandoned. (Mind you I said TRULY RESPONSIBLE breeders, not these "rep. breeders" that you speak of who would just dump their puppies off at the shelter.)
Instead of targeting responsible breeders to yell at them about overpopulation, please target the backyard breeders and puppymills, who are the ones contributing to 99.9% of the unwanted dog population.

I feel terrible about the problem with homeless pets, and I do all I can on my limited time to help shelters out. However, I felt I had to stick up for the excellent breeders who you failed to represent in your posts.

I still doubt that you have met breeders who are breeding for the right reasons, because what you describe just doesn't fit the standards for a responsible, ethical breeder. :)

[RD]

Something to consider: if the truly responsible breeders call a moratorium on breeding, only the irresponsible breeders will be left holding the health, physical and mental welfare of dogs in their hands. And responsible breeders are the only ones who would ever honor a moratorium.
A frightening thought, indeed. :(

[Mordy]

Is there dogs, and right now I am just speaking of dogs... is there such a short supply of working dogs, or breeds at this time, this moment that we need to breed more? Our we as a people, in such a bind that we need 13,000 new litters this year? Are we in such a short supply? I think this last paragraph says what I want to say.

it's not that there aren't "enough", but all the breeders i know personally mainly breed to preserve their bloodline and improve the breed. they do not mass produce litter after litter after litter indiscriminately, they breed once a year, or maybe even just once every other year and carefully plan which dog they want to breed to which. often they keep at least one of the puppies for their own breeding program.

you can't lump these people into the same category as large scale commercial kennels like for example the idiots at kimbertal http://kimbertal.com/ken.jpg.

as long as people want dogs and want convenience, the puppy mills/commercial kennels are going to thrive and contribute to the overpopulation problem, that issue is not on the shoulders of the responsible, reputable breeders.

[amymarley]

I guess I have to say that I have been standing on one side of the fence. Again, I, along with others have been saving mutts and purebreeds for years. I can't speak and won't about breeds on a whole....example...I am not in the breeding community, and say if I was, I would prob. know the good and bad breeders of say, German Shepards. Since, I don't I can't pin point a certain breeder. I was/am just VERY passionate about what I have had to do in the past. I wrote a while back about some customs dogs, these 3 dogs came from 3 different breeders, the breeders then "sold" them or whatever to U.S. Customs, or whoever Customs has on contract at that time. The trainer then saw they were not "fit" and left them for the Humane SOciety to find homes for. As far as I am concerned, shame on customs too. All 3 dogs were sooooo trainable. I can agree that they were maybe not "top notch" for them, but would have been great sniffers. I was lucky enough to work with the Atlanta Police K-9 unit for a bit to learn how to train bomb/drug sniffers and incorporate that into my shows. These dogs did great, but again, I am getting off the subject.

I would hate to any breed extinct... Like I said, I just get passionate... Show horses can be worth hundreds, thousands and even millions, and I am sure you have heard about so much abuse and neglect with them. It's not always the breeders, of course, it's the people. Then again, look around us and see some of the people breeding children that don't need to be. That's another story...

Basically, I don't know the whole community of breeders, I have just seen the outcome on my side. I hope I came across a bit better and some of you may at least have a small or better understanding of my fustration.
Amy

[Mordy]

amy, i definitely understand your point of view.

i'm originally from germany, where the control parent breed clubs exert over breeders is much stricter and there is much less indiscriminate breeding. i was totally shocked and horrified when i moved to the US and found out that (a) dogs in american shelters (animal control, not rescues etc.) are routinely killed off to make room for more and (b) the numbers of animals killed for that eason every year are in the millions.

there are puppy mill style operations in germany (and other european countries) as well, but not on the same scale as in the US.

[amymarley]

Hey Mordy, I lived in Germany for 3 years, went to school in Munich and lived in Bad Tolz... I love Germany. My fathers wife of 2 years and her 2 kids (love them) are from Germany too. I know how the German treat their dogs, shoot, our dogs were servered water bowls before they even took our drink order. haha
amy

[amymarley]

Have to repeat... in the thread above/or below.... ? for Granny or Manchester.... they stopped breeding because they felt no more need. There were too many pups in shelters at the moment and stopped the line. I so feel for them, and have so much respect for them. Even though I am "cool" now, I would love to know why I was bashed about breeding when I first came on. These are seasoned breeders knowing when to stop, and make a better world for animals... still don't get it. But at least I now know where it was coming from. ....Just more of my passion...Just never saw this post, I mean the question to Granny and Manchester. Gotta luv them.

[Love4Pits]

Enough UNWANTED pets out there? Please stop your breeding to make a buck, at least until there are no need for animal shelters, humane societies and other rescue groups out there. Disgusting....letting animals "breed" is a very lazy way to make an income! Get off your butt and do it your self. Don't rely on animals having sex to make YOU money. Over 7 million pets get destroyed a year, and yes, you are part to blame, don't think your not. Not ever pup, or kitten get a good home for ever..... Hey, I know I came from another forum, but I have to speak the trouth...freedom of speech and all. Let's see how long this is on here now that I recall a post on "how much did you pay for your dog..." The right answer should have been, about 40.00 from a shelter, not some puppy mill or breeder.
AMY

Its not righ of you to assume we are all out to make a buck. Breeding dogs the right way is extremly expensive you you do it the correct way. In the end i have never made back from a litter of puppies what i spent preparing for the puppies all the health tests and vet visits an supplies. I breed for better and healthier working dogs I breed to help the breeds. I rescue as well infact 9 of my dogs ARE rescues. So don't go about assuming things about people it is wrong.

[sylvia liebrechts]

you are right! i do breed for 35 years! we have strict rules regarding health, age for breeding, how many litters etc. they are checked in every way before" licensed to breed from! at least we do have that in France, in holland, germany: most of european countries anyway: very strict breedingrules! more then 20 pups a year ( i never get to that having one litter a year or even not one at all!) you have to pay tax! as breeding is checked and registered!
and i do have a rescue as well for all retrievers! strange(?) most of them are the mixed ones! we are so afraid what comes after the hype of the lab, golden etc doodles! they will end in the rescues as well..... think twice ... better go to good breeders, if any problems, they do! take their dogs back ... help finding a solution for any problem ... as they DO feel responsable for their breed! if one has gone to all test, all healthchecks, all shows to get the "qualifications" for breeding ... do you reallu think they make lots of money?
maybe the puppyfarmers who have many dogs ... check if the breeder has her old girls around ? are the dogs in the house ... or all day in crates, kennels etc ... puppies born in the house ...
believe me a good breeder like to see the pups grow ... spends all his time with them ... wants them to grow up as a social, happy dog ...; as mostly he/she is the one who decide what pup is going where ... so she needs to know about his behaviour : only known when spending lots of time with the pups .... that is what good breeders do!
so dont mix up puppyfarms with breeders with good intentions ...
strange(?) that most rescue volunteers are BREEDERS !? NO , they have taken rresponsability going further then the front door ! Just go and look around... better spending bit more time with visiting breeders to find the good one ...

[Whitedobelover]

Amy I see your point however... there is a need for purebred pups that can be shown... You cant show a purebreed from a shelter now can you.. It isnt always for income. And you should realize that. I mean I think you are correct in many of your statements but you have to look from another point of view

Where did you get your dog from? a breeder or shelter?


Enough UNWANTED pets out there? Please stop your breeding to make a buck, at least until there are no need for animal shelters, humane societies and other rescue groups out there. Disgusting....letting animals "breed" is a very lazy way to make an income! Get off your butt and do it your self. Don't rely on animals having sex to make YOU money. Over 7 million pets get destroyed a year, and yes, you are part to blame, don't think your not. Not ever pup, or kitten get a good home for ever..... Hey, I know I came from another forum, but I have to speak the trouth...freedom of speech and all. Let's see how long this is on here now that I recall a post on "how much did you pay for your dog..." The right answer should have been, about 40.00 from a shelter, not some puppy mill or breeder.
AMY

[amymarley]

I got my boxer from a shelter.... As for showing dogs, A LOT OF YOU WILL HATE ME... I don't see the point. Sorry, I have taken in over 300 animals that were not "above par" that would still kick the butt in training and a pet/best friend over all. That's just my 2 cents... you don't have to agree. I would never "alter" my best friend that is supposed to be like my family to make "ME" happy. I love'm the way they come. I hope I answered your question...
Again,, WHite dove... I rescused over 300 animals from shelters, never got ONE from a breeder.....

[Mordy]

you may not see the point, but it doesn't change the fac that we do need responsible, conscientious breeders who will continue preserving the breed. otherwise it won't be all that long until breeds that have been around for hundreds of years will simply vanish.

yeah, as a pet pretty much any dog will be fine, but if you are interested in more than "just" a pet dog, a mixed breed or rescue simply won't do, as many dog sport activities are cenered around the tasks that certain dog breeds were historically bred to perform.

to perform well, these purebred dogs must conform to a specific standard that ensures they have the proper shape for their job, and the best breeding stock is determined by correct conformation and working ability/temperament. don't you agree that it is better to narrow down thebreeding stock to the best examples of the breed rather than just breed indiscriminately?

it isn't all black and white. you can't throw all breeders in the same pot, maybe you should direct your anger more specifically against those breeders who produce the dogs that end up in pet stores, shelters and rescues - because a good breeder will take back any dog from their breeding program no questions asked when the new owner can't keep it anymore for whatever reasons. those dogs don't end up in shelters.

[Whitedobelover]

i absolutely agree with mordy one hundred percent

[Mordy]

thanks. :)

ugh i just re-read my post again, i have some atrocious typing going tonight. lol

[Whitedobelover]

anytime mordy one thing i will say is you can word things well and still make it simple for others to understand an you are very smart and experienced which is awesome...and i enjoy asking you things because i know that if you answer you normally have the right answer that is grea :D

[RD]

Mordy put it perfectly.

Animalbiz, you're pretty much preaching to the choir when it comes to backyard breeders. We know they suck. Believe me, I've been involved with helping to place homeless dogs too. I know how big of a problem there is with overpopulation but I can guarantee you that the dogs from truly responsible breeders are not the ones that you're going to find wasting away in shelters - EVER.

[hsnepp]

well there are rescue organizations, that are not breeders, but "shelter" certain purebreds, would you think of gong there and saving them?

[Whitedobelover]

Rd i think animal biz left us yesterday...

[BlackDog]

Oh gawd.. I WISH our shelters were that cheap down here.. the price has jacked up to well over $100.. for a dog.. and MORE for a puppy... lol

Before I purchased my puppy, I did look through our shelters tons.. but honeslty anything I saw just wouldn't have suited me.. so i opted for a breeder. I did research on this breed and contacted several breeders, checked out their backgrounds on them and their dogs etc etc.. It took me a few years to finally decide on which breeder and which dogs I'd want puppies from. So My decision wasn't a spur of the moment type thing.

I got my puppy from a reputable breeder and I'm definately not ashamed of it. you can't show a mixed breed dog in a CKC or AKC santioned show and that is what i have wanted to do since its been in the family forever..[showing dogs].

Agreed. Where I live its 120 for a adult cat. More for kittens. Even more a adult dog and more than that for a puppy. But on the other hand the price of pet shop dogs mutts has increased to several hundred and not uncommonly over 2 thousand. So if nothing else no body is going to make the excuse of getting a pet store dog because its cheaper. But I agree it still should be lower to make the offer more enticing to potential dog owners rather than making the mistake of getting a pet store dog.

[Mordy]

Agreed. Where I live its 120 for a adult cat. More for kittens. Even more a adult dog and more than that for a puppy. But on the other hand the price of pet shop dogs mutts has increased to several hundred and not uncommonly over 2 thousand. So if nothing else no body is going to make the excuse of getting a pet store dog because its cheaper. But I agree it still should be lower to make the offer more enticing to potential dog owners rather than making the mistake of getting a pet store dog.

unfortunately that's not always possible. rescues are generally non-profit, but they do have costs to cover for food, supplies, vet care, spay/neuter, housing pets and so on. their only source of money for these things are adoption fees, donations and fundraising events.

in most cases what you pay for a rescue animal is still less than what you would have to pay if you got the animal for free but have to take care of all associated costs yourself. spay surgery for dogs and cats is often around or over $50 already, a lot more if you don't get any sort of discount. i paid $180 to have my oldest cat spayed, the 4 young ones went through a city-sponsored spay and neuter clinic that cost around $25 for the boys and $45 for the girls.

[EliNHunter]

Good Lord, this thread is long :rolleyes: . Back to the "original" debate. The way I look at it? There does need to be responsible breeders that are furthering the breed, although I've had my doubts that that's what they've been doing (medium-sized, squat little blonde goldens come to mind). Then there's your BYBer's... who drop their puppies off at a shelter when they're not up to par. There is NO money-making in it unless you're a puppymill... which brings to mind, we must lobby to shut down pet stores!!!!! Why in God's name, if someone wants to get a purebred, would they not go through rescue? They're already in foster (or a shelter), getting evaluated, you know what you get (kind of... I realize... but there's no guarantee with puppies, either). If you feel like your shelter isn't taking care of the dog to evaluate it... take him/her out yourself and evaluate! Just know, you're not going to get the most perfect pet first off the bat in most cases. But if you want that, your expectations are a bit too high and I would suggest a goldfish...

[hsnepp]

i have read several messages. so correct me if i am wrong... #1: there are needs for certain breeds. #2: there are bad breeders out there, #3: there are very good breeders out there. #4: we want to keep bloodlines out there for an obvious reasons.
from reading so many posts, a lot that I do agree with, some i dont. because i am not a breeder, what can us "simple" people do to stop bad breeding. how about getting a dog from a certain breed shelter? I also know for a fact from above, that certain breeders do drop off their "unwanted" litters to shelters. i used to vol. at a shelter and it happens so much. I live in georgia, and i see it happen, so it must happen other places.

[Mordy]

hsnepp, my personal opinion is that the best course of action is to educate the public why it is so important to not buy puppies from

1. pet shops
2. large scale commercial breeders where puppies are mass produced and grow up in kennels instead of integrated with the family and lots of human contact
3. websites on the internet, sight unseen, shipped "conveniently" to the new owner, without ever meeting the breeder and seeing where the dog came from

yes, it is a fact that some breeders "get rid" of puppies by dumping them at shelters and other unethical methods, but these are not what is commonly referred to as a responsible breeder. responsible breeders will not sell you a puppy without a contract, and no responsible breeder will draw up a contract without a clause that if the new owner can't keep the dog for any reason whatsoever they will take it back. again - dogs from truly ethical, responsible breeders do not end up dumped at shelters, for this very reason.

for those people who don't mind taking in a rescue dog, any shelter or rescue is fine. dogs in need come from so many different places and they all deserve a second chance. someone who is not an experienced dog owner should stick with rescues rather than adopting from a shelter, simply for the fact that most rescues keep dogs in foster homes and these people know what the individual dogs are like.

if you adopt from a city shelter, you won't get much support in that direction, since the dogs live in kennels and often are at the shelter for only relatively short periods of time.

[Rubylove]

All of my cats I got from shelters. We got our dog from a breeder.

This was because we are people who work full time and have a certain type of lifestyle. Dogs need a lot of time and attention, and we wanted to make sure we were getting the best breed of dog for our lives - to ensure that we were able to cater for it and give it the best life possible.

You might think that is selfish, but it is true that everyone lives their lives in a certain way, and we were thinking only of the dog that we were going to get. What would be the point of getting a dog from a shelter, only to find that we got the totally wrong dog for us that would end up miserable and unhappy?

We put a lot of time, thought and effort into choosing the right dog - that would make us happy and most importantly, we could make happy in return. We feel that we made the right choice with Ruby, and would go for the same breed again when we get another dog.

However, having said that, I do agree that breeding any animal seems a bit excessive when there are so many unwanted, unloved animals in the world.

I, too, work in animal rescue and know where you're coming from, Amy. That is why it was so important to us to get the right dog for our situation, which we could only be sure of with a purebred - as much as you can be sure of anything with animals!

[Mikey27X834]

I'm getting my dog from a breeder, and I make zero apologies for that. It's not my fault there are loads of unwanted dogs without homes.

[Gallien Jacks]

I'm getting my dog from a breeder, and I make zero apologies for that. It's not my fault there are loads of unwanted dogs without homes.
No one is saying it is your fault, but a lot of people think that if you dont plan on showing or breeding then its best to give a rescue dog a home

[Mikey27X834]

I agree, to a certain degree, and I've actually tried to find a rescue dog to adopt. But if someone like me, who has never owned a dog before, who doesn't have experience with dogs, then maybe a rescue might not be the best idea due to possible behavioral problems.

[Gallien Jacks]

I agree, to a certain degree, and I've actually tried to find a rescue dog to adopt. But if someone like me, who has never owned a dog before, who doesn't have experience with dogs, then maybe a rescue might not be the best idea due to possible behavioral problems.

Thats true unless you can get a puppy

[taratippy]

Sorry but do you honestly believe that all rescue dogs come with problems? Its just not true! Many are in rescue for a miriade of other reasone, in fact the most common reason dogs are in rescue in the UK is due to family break down, nothing to do with the dogs having problems.

[Mikey27X834]

I never said all dogs in rescues have behavioral problems, nor did I imply that either.

[EliNHunter]

I'm not even able to go through all the postings here. This is entirely looong... and I'm not pointing fingers. But whoever said they were staying clear of rescues because those dogs have behavioral issues is COMPLETELY WRONG!!!! Yes, perhaps some do, and some may "seem" to have them. My two rescues, case in point. They were both strays. TOTALLY untrained and absolute ROGUES. But I knew their heart and soul (I know not all can "connect" that way, but I can) and knew their potential with hard work from both of us. And they both are/was the best dogs I could ask for. Now, maybe that means for you... "I don't want to put time and energy into my dog... I want him/her perfect from the start". Well, they actually have those, too (just to note "perfect" is not going to happen with ANY pet). There are many well adjusted, trained, "good dogs" put into rescue because of the love their owners have for their pets to find the right connection with the right person/family. Some owners are deceased, getting divorced, family members have allergies, etc. etc. etc. Please, think again...

[Mordy]

personally i think that the potential for behavioral problems is just as high for a puppymill dog sold at a petstore as for one from a shelter/rescue. so unless someone really makes the effort to find a responsible breeder, it doesn't make much of a difference.

a purebred rescue dog might in fact be the better option since it has been evaluated by people who are familiar with the breed for other reasons than just producing hundreds of puppies a year. :)

[apmnally]

Enough UNWANTED pets out there? Please stop your breeding to make a buck, at least until there are no need for animal shelters, humane societies and other rescue groups out there. Disgusting....letting animals "breed" is a very lazy way to make an income! Get off your butt and do it your self. Don't rely on animals having sex to make YOU money. Over 7 million pets get destroyed a year, and yes, you are part to blame, don't think your not. Not ever pup, or kitten get a good home for ever..... Hey, I know I came from another forum, but I have to speak the trouth...freedom of speech and all. Let's see how long this is on here now that I recall a post on "how much did you pay for your dog..." The right answer should have been, about 40.00 from a shelter, not some puppy mill or breeder.
AMY

what we need is a foolproof screening process its not hard to have a partner apply for a dog/cat or whatever instead of yourself if you have previously had trouble with animal welfare groups i work at a shelter and it happens quite alot and theres not much that can be done about it as for stopping breeders. breeders dont make money considering the cost it takes to bring a healthy femal/male into a state where the will have healthy puppies is not cheap alot of breeders do it to better the breed and not to make a quick buck the ones who make a quick buck are the puppy farmers the welfare groups have no problem with purebred breeding its the puppy farms and backyard breeders that cause all the trouble pets need to be desexed not breeding dogs bred by reputable breeders

[Muttlies3]

I personally have a love/hate relationship with breeders. There are breeders who are responsible, reputable, and do it to better the breed. However, seeing the everyday joe breed their pet dog angers me to no end.

I got all three of my dogs from the Humane Society and will never ever have it any other way as long as there's a need for shelters and rescues. There's nothing wrong with these dogs. They are far better behaved than my neighbor's purebred who they spent thousands on. They've had her for 3 years and spent hours trying to train her.

I've had my dog, Kiara, for a year and a few months now - i'm trying to find new tricks to train because she's getting bored from her current ones! She was found abandoned on the side of a busy road, flea bitten.

Simba was found at 4 months as a stray, lived in the shelter for 4 months and was to be killed within the next few days. He is one of the most well-behaved dogs I know.

Nala was abandoned in a box with her littermates. Malnourished, kennel cough, flea bitten. Now she weighs 70 lbs and is one of the most gentle sweetest dogs.

All three from the shelter. All three are truely special, and not just because i'm biased but anyone who meets them sees it as well.

Shelter dogs are just as good if not better than any papered pedigree.

[BlackDog]

Shelter dogs are just as good if not better than any papered pedigree.

Better in what way? It's common for some people to say that mutts are better health and temperament wise when there are so many terrible purebred breeders out there ruining the name of the purebred dog. That isn't to say that mutts automatically are better. That's like saying their is no such thing as a good purebred dog and mutts are better.

Just because your next door neighbor spent thousands on his purebred dogs and they turned out to be less than adaquate (health, temperament, or structual wise) and your mix breeds are some of the best you have met doesn't mean all mutts are great and all purebreds are bad. Good breeders have dogs wonderful dogs and nothing less. You have to look beyond you own personal experience.

I always encourage people to read these books because they are wonderful reads and they explain A TON of things people over look about dogs.

''Dog Showing For Beginners'' by Lynn Hall
''Breeding A Litter'' by Beth J. Finder Harris

You would think reading books about breeding a litter and dog showing isn't necessary because you have no intention to breed or show but you really need to dig into the roots of what good breeders do. That involves breeding and showing. I think you faith in purebreds will be restores after reading these.

[keyodie]

I think that if you want a dog, you should go to the shelter and save a life. There are MANY dogs in shelters that are about to be killed, and the shelter I went to to get Charlie was horrible. I went there, got the adorable pup for 5 dollars, and took him home. There are dogs in shelters that are as "good" and "cute" as the dogs from breeders.

[BlackDog]

I think that if you want a dog, you should go to the shelter and save a life. There are MANY dogs in shelters that are about to be killed, and the shelter I went to to get Charlie was horrible. I went there, got the adorable pup for 5 dollars, and took him home. There are dogs in shelters that are as "good" and "cute" as the dogs from breeders.

I'm not saying don't buy a shelter dog. I think anyone who buys a shelter dog has a wonderful heart. I'm just saying don't put down purebreds.

[Muttlies3]

I never said all mutts are great or all purebreds are bad. NEVER.

[gaddylovesdogs]

I have two mutts (Colby is Canaan Dog and JRT, Tippy is border collie and German Shepherd), and one purebred (Mayberry, chocolate lab). I love them all equally, and find them all to be incredibly smart, sweet, and beautiful dogs. I don't prefer one of my mutts over my purebred, or my purebred over my mutts. I love them all because they've all got awesome personalities.

But I think if you're looking for a family pet, why not drop by a few local shelters? There are a ton of dogs that need homes - about five million dogs are euthanized in American shelters every year. 750,000 dogs and cats are gassed to death in Lousiana annually. A lot of these dogs are purebreds.

[bubbatd]

As a past breeder of Goldens , I must say that back then we chose purebred papered dogs because we knew what we were looking for. Things have changed. There are so many unwanted dogs now , I would go rescue or shelters. I do prefer rescue as the dogs are evaluated so much better. I feel sorry for the shelters and Humane societies as most of their dogs may have " issues" . A good dog can be any breed or mixture. I do wish there were fees placed on litters. Those who breed for a reason would be more than willing to pay the price ... hopefully the BYBs would have to pay through the nose if they don't report.

[BlackDog]

Shelter dogs are just as good if not better than any papered pedigree.

One could imagine by this statement that that's what you meant. If it wasn't, I'm sorry. My mistake.

[Muttlies3]

That is not what I meant, however, it seems as if a majority of people think it to be the exact opposite. I love all dogs equally.

[amymarley]

I have two mutts (Colby is Canaan Dog and JRT, Tippy is border collie and German Shepherd), and one purebred (Mayberry, chocolate lab). I love them all equally, and find them all to be incredibly smart, sweet, and beautiful dogs. I don't prefer one of my mutts over my purebred, or my purebred over my mutts. I love them all because they've all got awesome personalities.

But I think if you're looking for a family pet, why not drop by a few local shelters? There are a ton of dogs that need homes - about five million dogs are euthanized in American shelters every year. 750,000 dogs and cats are gassed to death in Lousiana annually. A lot of these dogs are purebreds.

I like your point... over 7 million are put down in the U.S. a year alone. Again, I am not going to bash the good breeders here, only the bad ones who obviously don't visit this site. But, I agree, enough is enough..my thoughts....until there are no shelters needed, or at least decreased by 50%, and yes, a lot are purebreds but alot of mutts also.