Please Neuter

[Richie12345]

This thread is for the new members (we old timers know this stuff ;) lol). Please, neuter/spay your dogs. Breeding is very long, complicated, and costs a lot of money. If you are interested in breeding your dog you should have many years of experience with that certain breed. For more info, Read “You think you know it all” by love4pits. She has some real useful info.

Benefits of neutering males: Since testicular cancer is second only to skin cancer as the most common cancer in dogs, castration of the male obviously removes this risk as well as risks associated with testicular torsion and infections. As with human males, non-cancerous enlargement of the prostate is a major problem, involving more than 60 percent of the sexually intact male more than five years of age.


Studies show that as many as 60% of the castrated males show a decline in unprovoked aggression toward other dogs. In addition, one study showed a decrease of 90% in the tendency of neutered dogs to roam. Animal behavior expert Benjamin L. Hart, DVM, PhD, sums up the effects of neutering on pet personality by noting that the procedure causes no basic personality changes except in the cases of roaming and aggression. Activities such as playfulness, activity level, watchful barking and affection-seeking are, in Dr. Hart's opinion, not changed at all by the neutering.


Benefits of spaying females: For the bitch, the most important effect of spaying is protection against mammary cancer, the most common tumor in sexually intact female dogs. The risk to intact bitches of developing this kind of cancer is three to seven times greater than that of neutered bitches. The risk of mammary tumor is lowest for bitches spayed prior to the first heat - a mere 0.5% ; spayed after the first or second season, the risk of mammarycancer rises as high as 26%.

Another benefit of spaying is the prevention of Pyometra, a severe infection of the uterus. Also, risks due to unwanted matings and to pregnancy and whelping are removed.

Many people believe that neutering will cause the dog to gain weight. However, this is not true. If the neutered are in a proper diet with proper excersize (sp?) (daily walks), your dog should be fine.



Early vs. Late Castrating: At Minnesota, Dr. Katherine Salmeri and associates conducted an extensive study of the effects of early neutering/spaying on dogs. There were no problems in neutering/spaying seven-week old puppies; anesthesia was simple and there were no complications in recovery. Surgical time in bitches was considerably reduced due to the lack of abdominal fat. Pups were returned to their litters and were eating within an hour.

Castration before puberty did not affect growth; actually, there was some evidence that early castration increased long-bone length. The neutered dogs were not less active as they went into adulthood, there were no changes in social behavior and the effect of neutering at seven weeks was similar to that of neutering at seven months.

So there you have it, I wanted to make this thread because of Bichon_lover's thread. Sorry if it seems rushed, I was going through it kinda quickly. And yes I did get this info from educational dog websites, lol.

[Richie12345]

Sorry, I guess I used "neuter" incorrectly

[nedim]

Bump.

[Richie12345]

Thanks Nedim, I'm glad someone cares about this thread :)

[nedim]

No prob dude.

A BUMP is worth possibly saving a few lives.

[Mordy]

important topic, richie. :) always good tobe brought up.

i have one thing to add, for those people who have difficulty affording the surgery, there are many programs that can assist.

www.spayusa.org, your local humane society and sometimes also regular animal shelters offer discount programs.

[Richie12345]

Thank you, Mordy. I forgot to add that...

[bubbatd]

I agree !!! My male stud , Rufus, developed cancer at 12 years old... neutered him and he lived to be 17.

[Gallien Jacks]

Barney has just been nutered at 4years he was used as a stud dog for almost two years and I feelt that it was time to do the deed as I want him to have a long and healthy life

[oriondw]

No neutering for my dogs, thank you...

[Gallien Jacks]

No neutering for my dogs, thank you...
May i ask why?

[oriondw]

May i ask why?


Because, I dont see any real reason to do it, other then to buy into American vet hysteria... :rolleyes:

[bridey_01]

How about avoiding the risk of testicular cancer? Decreasing the instances of roaming?
I'm a little divided on the aggression issue though. Saying that unfixed male dogs develop aggression because of too much testosterone kind of implies that neutering is a cure for aggression, which it rarely is. Even "whole" dogs should be taught that aggression that inflicts injury is unacceptable.

[Renee750il]

Decreasing the chances of testicular cancer is a big consideration. Some of that can be mitigated by avoiding the carcinogens found in so much commercial food. Dmitri really isn't an owner who is likely to have a problem with Orion roaming and isn't about to breed Orion indescriminately or irresponsibly. He's really not the owner with unneutered dogs that causes me concern, but he is the minority. As with so much of dog ownership, responsibility is the key.

[bridey_01]

Some of that can be mitigated by avoiding the carcinogens found in so much commercial food. Very true.

[oriondw]

I'm a little divided on the aggression issue though. Saying that unfixed male dogs develop aggression because of too much testosterone kind of implies that neutering is a cure for aggression, which it rarely is. Even "whole" dogs should be taught that aggression that inflicts injury is unacceptable.

One of the points I had in mind. ;)

[Saje]

Irresponsible breeding.... the thousands of puppies and dogs that lose their lives in shelters because of overbreeding... genetic conditions and poor temperment that is passed on with poor breeding...

[Ash47]

I just look at this way... I do plan on having children in the far away future. By having my uterus and ovaries, I of course have a great chance of developing cancer in those areas. I also have to endure the "monthly Hell" that is part of every woman. If I did not want to reproduce, and I had the opportunity to remove my uterus and ovaries, boy would I be in line for that!!! I have no use for them other than childbearing.
Same for dogs. It is ultimately in our hands to take away the reproductive organs that are not going to be used. That is, after we make the wise choice not to breed them. Only top-notch, one of a kind, 100% quality dogs and bitches should be bred. By them having these organs, they have an awesome chance to develop cancer. Also, the bitches don't enjoy their time of the month, so if they are not of breeding quality, take that misery away from them. They will appreciate it.

[Richie12345]

excellent point Pro47

[Richie12345]

This is a bit of topic... but, MY THREAD BECAME A STICKY!! Weee! Awesome! So cool! I feel so important now, lol

[gaddylovesdogs]

All three of my dogs are spayed and all of my future pets will be spayed and neutered also. I have no need for more puppies, the world has no need for more puppies.

The reasons people have for not fixing their pets are often so ridiculous - "I don't want him to lose his manliness," "It'll make her fat," "It will wreck her coat," :rolleyes: "I don't want his personality to change."

[Zoom]

I had the worst time convincing a friend of mine to neuter his dog, because his own masculinity was so tied up in his dog's...silly, silly man.

[juliefurry]

I always get my pets spayed or neutered. I don't like the look of "intact" male dogs, I really don't like looking at their "stuff". Also If when it was "my time of the month" and I had to walk around with a visable diaper wrapped around me wherever I went I would die of humiliation. I know I am no where near experienced enough to breed dogs (probably never will be either) so it's best to get them fixed and then not have to worry about "accidents". Puppies are cute, and cuddly, but I think a WHOLE litter would be just TOO much work for someone like me.

[Renee750il]

This is a bit of topic... but, MY THREAD BECAME A STICKY!! Weee! Awesome! So cool! I feel so important now, lol

ROFLMAO! Glad it made you so happy, Richie. You started a good thread about something very important. ;)

[akemi_hikari]

Dogs who aren't neutred at a young age have more behaviorial problems. They also only think about mounting everything in site including your visitors legs.. which is annoying. And the cancer thing I agree with.

[Mordy]

Because, I dont see any real reason to do it, other then to buy into American vet hysteria

lol, so it's "american vet hysteria" vs. urban legends and old wives tales. interesting concept. :rolleyes:

[RD]

lol, so it's "american vet hysteria" vs. urban legends and old wives tales. interesting concept. :rolleyes:
Yes, I was thinking the same. lol..


If a dog (or its owner! I've seen excellent dogs that are being bred by MORONS!) doesn't have the right stuff for breeding it should be neutered, IMO. Neutering is healthier for the dog. If it isn't going to be used for breeding or shown in conformation, why leave it intact at all? I consider neutering a preventative surgery for testicular cancer.

[amymarley]

Very well said.... better than I did my first, second, third...an on and on try. American Vet. Hype...please. For everyone else, good for you.

[amymarley]

I see that most if not all of the people here are very passionate about their fids. I know I am brand new to the board and didn't really represent myself as I should have the first few posts, but I wish this whole breeding tread would disappear. It seems that the majority here may have purebreds (I do too, from a shelter). But the whole breeding thing gets my hackles up and I am seeing it's getting others hackles up as well. I understand freedom of speech, and respect that, but from what I can see here, most "animal people" don't respect the concept and are not in favor of it.

I could see having a pure-bred section, (and discussing training, behavior and temperments of certain breeds) but "the breeding ground" sounds like a doggy orgy for profit. Just my 2 cents....
Amy

[Richie12345]

what about improving the breed look and temperament? Not all breeders breed for the money

[oriondw]

Dogs who aren't neutred at a young age have more behaviorial problems. They also only think about mounting everything in site including your visitors legs.. which is annoying. And the cancer thing I agree with.


Neutering your dog will not solve any behavioral issues you may have with him.

[oriondw]

lol, so it's "american vet hysteria" vs. urban legends and old wives tales. interesting concept. :rolleyes:

In my live i've never seen a dog with testicular cancer and I lived in a country where they DONT neuter dogs, period.

Not one.

[oriondw]

Very well said.... better than I did my first, second, third...an on and on try. American Vet. Hype...please. For everyone else, good for you.

Hype, because this started only in past couple of decades. Prior to that no one cared.


You know how much money vets make by neutering dogs?


Then again, Im sure its easier for 99% of people to mutilate their dog rather then keep an eye on it :rolleyes:

[RD]

Then again, Im sure its easier for 99% of people to mutilate their dog rather then keep an eye on it :rolleyes: That's exactly it, and why I'm pro-neutering/vasectomy (sp.) for the pets of that 99%. It would be a disaster if nobody sterilized or neutered their dogs, and then let them run loose. People who do that are morons to begin with, but if they -must- own dogs and not watch them, I think that at least preventing them from reproducing is a good idea. Shelters are full enough as it is. :(

Neutering does nothing as far as the dog's behavior goes, a dominant dog will still be a dominant dog after neutering; a dog that marks in the house will still mark after neutering; a humper will still hump after neutering. Removing or reducing the hormones doesn't eliminate behaviors like that. Most of the trainers, behaviorists and of course vets I have spoken with seem to be convinced that the root of all problems with dogs lies within their testicles. :o I personally have never had a problem keeping my intact dog under control.

[BudgetsDad]

... thinks about getting his testicles chopped off???

It may be convenient, and with its benefits, but it's still mutilation. Don't fool yourselves.

I don't like tail or ear docking or any ridiculous cosmetic procedures. Spaying and neutering is essentially the same. We are mutilating the dogs to compensate for failings of humans.

[~Tucker&Me~]

What about cancer? I cant say I agree with docking or cropping but I personally think that neutering is perfectly fine and preferable. Not ALL people can stay home all day and watch their dogs. Besides, after a month or so chances are that the dog forgets the whole thing anyhow.
~Tucker

[IliamnasQuest]

Ahh, the old "neuter" debate .. *L*

As a vet tech, I saw numerous cases of testicular tumors. Maybe those unneutered dogs in orion's country died before anyone noticed testicular tumors. Who knows? But the reality is that there ARE a lot of testicular tumors and the only one to blame when a dog ends up with that is the owner who didn't get their dog neutered.

Another health problem seen in intact male dogs is prostate enlargement and subsequent urinary problems. First sign is generally that the owner notices the dog is urinating blood. An intact male often has a prostate enlarge because he smells a bitch in heat and is aroused. Why put your dogs in this position, where they are feeling the effects of hormones that they're not allowed to use?

As far as behavioral issues go .. established behaviors may not change with castration. But a dog that is castrated before it learns to roam and search for a mate, or mark his territory in the house, will generally not learn those after neutering. Behaviors that are hormonally based will not happen as the source of the hormones has been removed.

And anyone worrying about what his dog might think about losing their testicles is projecting WAY too many of their own feelings on the dog! *LOL* One of the reasons dogs bounce back so quickly after most surgeries is that they don't put the emotional attachment on things as we humans do. A bitch with a mammary tumor removed isn't going to mourn the loss of her breast. A dog with an amputated leg is not going to mourn the loss of the leg - they won't think back on how they can't do the same things they used to do. They just adapt and go on, which is a survival technique.

Males don't "miss" their testicles, nor do females miss their ovaries and uterus after surgery. They deal with the discomfort at the time, and life goes on.

Reminds me of the old joke where the woman had one wish, and wished that her dog would be a handsome man. POOF! it happened .. and the man turned to the woman and said "don't you wish now that you hadn't had me neutered??"

It's all wishful thinking to believe that dogs worry about losing testicles or any other part.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[soft pawz]

i got a question

i just red this on another website:

Some 70,000 puppies and kittens are born every day in the U.S.

Between four million and six million pets are euthanized every year because they are homeless.

That means between 11,000 and 16,000 pets are euthanized every day simply because they are homeless.

An animal in a shelter is killed every 1.5 seconds.

Only one animal in 10 born in the U.S. gets a good home that lasts a lifetime


all those poor puppys and dogs that the USA puts to sleep every year because they are homeless......

how many are given up by their owners and how many are puppys that the breeder couldnt get rid of??

does anybody know???

[soft pawz]

and if the majority of puppys have had an owner before (and that would be my guess)......
doesnt that kind of mean that spay& neuter wont really change something about the huge amount of dogs that get PTS every year?

i'll try my best to explain it:
even if puppys can only by purchased from real breeders because every single dog not being used for breeding would be neutered, there would still be the same amount of people who want to buy a dog. and among those people there would still be the same % of bad dogowners who buy a puppy and then surrender it and bring it to a petshelter after only a couple of weeks or months or years.
unless people change (and they never do) the shelters will still be crowded, maybe with more purebred pups but does that matter?

so can anybody tell me how many dogs being PTS are truely without an owner and how many have had an owner before?
because unless the majority of dog in shelters are truely ownerless, spay & neuter wont change THIS problem......

[BudgetsDad]

Ahh, the old "neuter" debate .. *L*

As a vet tech, I saw numerous cases of testicular tumors. Maybe those unneutered dogs in orion's country died before anyone noticed testicular tumors. Who knows? But the reality is that there ARE a lot of testicular tumors and the only one to blame when a dog ends up with that is the owner who didn't get their dog neutered.

Another health problem seen in intact male dogs is prostate enlargement and subsequent urinary problems. First sign is generally that the owner notices the dog is urinating blood. An intact male often has a prostate enlarge because he smells a bitch in heat and is aroused. Why put your dogs in this position, where they are feeling the effects of hormones that they're not allowed to use?

As far as behavioral issues go .. established behaviors may not change with castration. But a dog that is castrated before it learns to roam and search for a mate, or mark his territory in the house, will generally not learn those after neutering. Behaviors that are hormonally based will not happen as the source of the hormones has been removed.

And anyone worrying about what his dog might think about losing their testicles is projecting WAY too many of their own feelings on the dog! *LOL* One of the reasons dogs bounce back so quickly after most surgeries is that they don't put the emotional attachment on things as we humans do. A bitch with a mammary tumor removed isn't going to mourn the loss of her breast. A dog with an amputated leg is not going to mourn the loss of the leg - they won't think back on how they can't do the same things they used to do. They just adapt and go on, which is a survival technique.

Males don't "miss" their testicles, nor do females miss their ovaries and uterus after surgery. They deal with the discomfort at the time, and life goes on.

Reminds me of the old joke where the woman had one wish, and wished that her dog would be a handsome man. POOF! it happened .. and the man turned to the woman and said "don't you wish now that you hadn't had me neutered??"

It's all wishful thinking to believe that dogs worry about losing testicles or any other part.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


According to your logic, there would be nothing wrong with amputating a dog's legs for fun because they would soon get over it. Whether or not there is any "projecting" going on is irrelevant.

If people want to fix their dogs, fine. Mine are fixed also. But it is insane to flame people who don't share the same viewpoint, because frankly, they have some very good arguments. Dogs enjoy sex like people do, this is not projecting human emotions onto animals. Anyone who denies this just doesn't pay attention to their dogs. We are taking that away, health benefits or not.

[Miss_Miyasa]

I have just a couple of things to say.

Just becouse an animal is netured doesn't mean they don't have the pleasure, I have seen many of my male cats enjoy themselves on a pillow(as disjusting as it is, and I have always felt sorry for the poor pillow) But as for girl dogs, I am sure that is they knew, they would kinda be thankful. What woman wouln't like to get rid of that monthly vistor?

I cant consider fixing and animal as mutliation. If my parents had my tonsils removed at a young age(as some be do) to prevent illness later on, would they be mutilating me? Sure, there is nothing wrong with them at the time, but why take the risk? It isnt like you are cutting off a leg, the dog will relise something is wrong. Fluffy isn't going to lie awake at night listening to her biological clock and seeing dancing puppies.

Another thing is the sexist arugement, "boys don't have puppies, why should they be fixed" just like the teenage girls get the rap for having the babies. having and unfixed male, cause accidents can happen, you never know. Personality, I wouldn't want the responsiblity of knowing I could have been at fault for puppies dieing....


But...as bad as it sounds...and as hard as it is to explain, I think something would kinda be missed in a world of only the top 1% of dogs being breed. Everyone would have a breed. I love muts, they are so unique, I mean, my adult is 5 years old, 110 pound burly long haired dalimation like ball of fuzz, sheds like a blizzard, but has spots. wonderful dog, and I have never seen another one like her. We were told my puppy is st bernard boxer, but I don't know, I just know is adorable and the she is going to be big. I love her. I guess what I am getting as, sometimes, I i like the supize of a mutt litter. When I was younger, my mother worked for a vet, and they woul get pregenant animals brought is to be euthnized all the time....She would bring them home, we would raise the litter and the give them away to friends and family(and keep one or so~.^) It was always kinda exciting, cause you just never knew what would get....

[rottiegirl]

I actually think its cruel in a way for NOT neutering males. They can become very sexually frustrated. I have seen a frustrated dog, and it doesnt look nice. They look horrible.

Imagine not being able to have sex your entire life!

[Dobiegurl]

I had Chico neutered as soon as I could. I have a question though. When I grow up I do plan on breeding (a LONG time from know) but I plan on showing dogs first and be able to spend time with Dobermans. I plan on getting a male Doberman to show but I cannot neuter him to participate in conformation. So what do I do then? (not being sarcastic just curios).

Evetually I will breed but after I spend many years in the "dog" world and around my favorite breed. I think its a very dificult position when you do not plan on breeding your show dog (at that time in your life) but you cannot nueter/spay your dog.

[BudgetsDad]

I actually think its cruel in a way for NOT neutering males. They can become very sexually frustrated. I have seen a frustrated dog, and it doesnt look nice. They look horrible.

Imagine not being able to have sex your entire life!

Perharps you are right. My point is just that this is not a black and white issue. And if some people believe in not neutering and spaying, then great.

[Dobiegurl]

Just a thought
People on the other thread were saying if a dog was meant to have no tail then it would have been born like that. I do believe in neutering but many people may feel that you are messing with nature because they were born like that.

[soft pawz]

I actually think its cruel in a way for NOT neutering males. They can become very sexually frustrated. I have seen a frustrated dog, and it doesnt look nice. They look horrible.

Imagine not being able to have sex your entire life!

i dissagree. they CAN become frustrated?.....they look horrible?........ok if you say so.....
i personally havent seen a frustrated not neutered male or one that looked horrible.
if you say that exsists then i believe you but that doesnt mean that every dog is gonna be sexually frustrated. so why neuter every dog and not just the ones that seem to suffer.....

but i dont really belive in the suffering actually.
in a dog pack only the alpha dog has the right to have sex, so are all the other dogs in the pack automatically frustrated??
having sex is the highest privilege in the dog world, way higher then "who is the first on the foodbowl".
with that said i think it is totally natural for a dog to be not neutered and not have sex because your dog shouldnt be the alpha.

experts even say that you should let your dog watch YOU having sex, specially if you got trouble with your leadership so he knows who has the right to mate and who is alpha.....

sorry, neutering doesnt make much sense to me. if a bodypart is healthy you shouldnt cut an animal open and rip it out......
just my opinion.

[Miss_Miyasa]

What doesn't make since? Let's say you have and unneutured male dog...

You are careful, you keep you dog under lock and key. But dogs can excape, get lost if you are not going to breed it, why take the risk you dog will continue the problem of strays? Or even if you dog never leave the yard, another dog might get in. You have the male, so you may never hear about the stray who had the ten puppies.

As for the health, by the time it IS unhealthly, it is most likely alittle to late, why take the chance? Humans are differnt from dogs, they have a social need to continue their line. Once the puppies are out of the house, the mother dogs will never even think about it again, and the male might never even see them, in the first place.

As for "mutliation", what about boys who are circusised? Babies who have their tonsils removed? Is this mutilation? Then why is it mutilation to have a dogs reproductive organs removed for health reasons. Most females would have theirs out if they didn't at one time want to have kids I bet, no cancer and no period. Men are just to wrapped up in their own $*#! to get rid of them....


Lastly, the problem isn't usually the people who OWN unfixed dogs, they are the unfixed dogs that are strays, if they come in contact, the worst can happen. Personally I beleive all stays should be fixed and realeased in the wild. Until all stays are off the street leaveing a dog or cat unfixed is either taking on a HUGE resonsibility, or irresonsible, depending on the person.

[soft pawz]

What doesn't make since? Let's say you have and unneutured male dog...

You are careful, you keep you dog under lock and key. But dogs can excape, get lost if you are not going to breed it, why take the risk you dog will continue the problem of strays? Or even if you dog never leave the yard, another dog might get in. You have the male, so you may never hear about the stray who had the ten puppies.

there is no 100% security but 99.9%. outside my male is on a leash and i would never leave my dog in the yard without supervision and in that case,
sorry but i think i would realize if a dog would be ontop of mine or the other way round.
another thing is that males simply dont get pregnant. now dont call me ignorant. thats simply true. its the female that ends up with the puppys therfore its the owner of the bitch that needs to supervise. if you think thats to much work then dont get a female. it might not sound fair but who ends up with the puppys?
of course that doesnt mean that all male dogs should run at large or anything, no dogowner should let his dog run around free and without supervision.

while you think spaying is the quick fix for the stray puppy problem i simply call it animal cruelty.
then you might as well fix humans, after all there are more then enaugh orphans in this world......let alone the overpopulation of this world.
with humans nobody would think about it but everybody thinks doing it to dogs is ok......




As for "mutliation", what about boys who are circusised? Babies who have their tonsils removed? Is this mutilation? Then why is it mutilation to have a dogs reproductive organs removed for health reasons. .

god, you cant compare apples with pairs.........seriously


Most females would have theirs out if they didn't at one time want to have kids I bet, no cancer and no period. Men are just to wrapped up in their own $*#! to get rid of them.....

please tell me you are kidding.........i am a female and this has nothing to do with "male-pissing-contest-thinking". do you know how many problems a complete removal means for the person??? do you know how many medication you will have to take for the rest of your life, how many complications.....

that statement is rediculous, and i am tired of hearing it. you got a problem with your period, well guess what, some dont! and just trust me on this, you DONT wanna go through that surgery.

besides that i am convinced that spaying every single stray is not gonna help with the "abandoned puppy ending up in shelter and getting killed issue"

its the people who are the problem, not the dogs.

[Mordy]

in a dog pack only the alpha dog has the right to have sex, so are all the other dogs in the pack automatically frustrated??

You are mixing up dog and wolf characteristics here that don't have anything to do with each other. Dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Especially since you brought up comparing "apples and pears", if you need a little help with the differences, check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226115631/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prod_11/103-3150217-5297439?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

[soft pawz]

You are mixing up dog and wolf characteristics here that don't have anything to do with each other. Dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Especially since you brought up comparing "apples and pears", if you need a little help with the differences, check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226115631/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prod_11/103-3150217-5297439?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

the behaviour of dogs is in many aspects still very similar to the behaviour of wolves. wolf and dog characteristics DO have something to do with each other, after all they share the same anchasters and are even able to mate!!

i think this is comparing a green apple to a red one and not comparing apples with pairs that dont have anything to do with each other like comparing a cirumcision to a major surgery........

studying the behaviour of wolves will tell you a lot about the behaviour of our pet dogs too. of course not 100% but i never said that.

but like with every subject, one expert says this, the other sees it totally different. everybody has to decide for themselfs what they think is more likely to be true.
even if it doesnt seem like it, i am always open for new arguments and information but so far nothing could really convince me why it is a good thing to spay your dog........

and i think it is true that there is still a lot of wolf and wolf like behaviour in our dogs ( and please believe me, i am not the only one saying so).

[Mordy]

the behaviour of dogs is in many aspects still very similar to the behaviour of wolves. wolf and dog characteristics DO have something to do with each other, after all they share the same anchasters and are even able to mate!!

Similar, but not the same. The main difference in breeding is that the alpha bitch in a pack only comes into season once a year (as opposed to twice a year in the average dosmestic dog) and only if circumstances are good enough to actually support a litter.

I don't have the time to get into this in much more detail right now, but if you are interested in dogs, educate yourself about them and the differences between the two species.

A horse and a donkey are similar enough to interbreed too, but that doesn't mean you can lump them together in any other respect as well.

[soft pawz]

if you are interested in dogs, educate yourself about them and the differences between the two species.

A horse and a donkey are similar enough to interbreed too, but that doesn't mean you can lump them together in any other respect as well.

just because somebody wrote a book about it doesnt necessarily mean they are right.

the cross between a horse and a donkey isnt fertile. it cant reproduce. therefor it is not a good comparison. crosses between horses and donkeys is a very different topic.

a cross between a wolf and a dog is fertile. wolves and dogs are very close and show similar behaviour patterns.
a wolf is a wolf and a dog is a dog. i am not lumping them together in just any other aspect. my argumentation is based on articles that i've red, written by biologists who studdied wolf and dog behaviour.

like i said earlier. just because its written in a book or article doesnt necessarily mean it is true but i find it to make a lot of sense to me.....

and thanks for recommending the book. i will look into it. i always wanna read as many different point of views as possible. i am not much into reading only one book and buying everything they say (not saying that you do!). so thanks but so far i still think i am right :p

[BudgetsDad]

just because somebody wrote a book about it doesnt necessarily mean they are right.

the cross between a horse and a donkey isnt fertile. it cant reproduce. therefor it is not a good comparison. crosses between horses and donkeys is a very different topic.

a cross between a wolf and a dog is fertile. wolves and dogs are very close and show similar behaviour patterns.
a wolf is a wolf and a dog is a dog. i am not lumping them together in just any other aspect. my argumentation is based on articles that i've red, written by biologists who studdied wolf and dog behaviour.

like i said earlier. just because its written in a book or article doesnt necessarily mean it is true but i find it to make a lot of sense to me.....

and thanks for recommending the book. i will look into it. i always wanna read as many different point of views as possible. i am not much into reading only one book and buying everything they say (not saying that you do!). so thanks but so far i still think i am right :p

Mordy... Soft pawz... thanks for a good debate! Now we're talking!

[Zoom]

the cross between a horse and a donkey isnt fertile. it cant reproduce. therefor it is not a good comparison. crosses between horses and donkeys is a very different topic.



Actually, this isn't 100% correct. It's extremly rare, but there are fertile mules out there. It's not as accurate a cross as wolf/dog, which is fertile just about 100% of the time; I just had to point that out.

[moonchild1970]

... thinks about getting his testicles chopped off???

It may be convenient, and with its benefits, but it's still mutilation. Don't fool yourselves.

I don't like tail or ear docking or any ridiculous cosmetic procedures. Spaying and neutering is essentially the same. We are mutilating the dogs to compensate for failings of humans.
IMO it it's not the same because when they reproduce often the whole litter suffers. They don't always get homes. And if they do, they may not be good ones. what happens if they don't get the health care they need?
Then they may suffer heartworm, parvo- etc.

According to your logic, there would be nothing wrong with amputating a dog's legs for fun because they would soon get over it. Whether or not there is any "projecting" going on is irrelevant.

If people want to fix their dogs, fine. Mine are fixed also. But it is insane to flame people who don't share the same viewpoint, because frankly, they have some very good arguments. Dogs enjoy sex like people do, this is not projecting human emotions onto animals. Anyone who denies this just doesn't pay attention to their dogs. We are taking that away, health benefits or not.



Now I don't think most of us amputate for fun. But when a dog has to have a limb amputated he/she learns to adjust right away. Unlike us humans. There is no anger, no resentment. So when they get fixed to them it is no big deal. Also dogs have the intelligence of a 3 yr old. Do you really think they would be mad if they can't have sex anymore? Most don't understand they have been "cut off" from that ability. Some even continue to try and breed.

Think about all of the suffering that you are preventing! There are way too many unwanted litters in the world as it is. There is NO way of denying that...

My two pups just got spayed and neutered. I was squeemish too. I felt awful. Especially about the pain I put them through. But the truth of it is I know I did the right thing, and I don't want to see my dogs die of cancer or get an std(Yes dogs can get them too) or contribute to the ever burgeoning dog population.

Plus, I want them with me as long as possible. You may feel it is a catch 22 and that's ok. Everyone is entitiled to their own opinion. But this is just mine. Thanks for listening.

[JennSLK]

Ok here's my two cents.

When I first got Emma I wanted to breed her. I didnt know any better. So she when through her first heat and I was going to breed her her next heat. Well I learned something and had a real eye opener and changed my mind. Emma then got ear infections and alergies wich drained the finances. So I put it off and she whent into heat again. I was going to spay her after but we were training so I thought I would put it off untill a brake in the courses. Well now Emma is going through a false pregnancy. She is very uncomforetable because she is lactating. I have to watch her 24/7 to make sure she doesn get Mastitis. Wich can be LIFE THRETENING!!. She will be spayed as soon as this is over.

This is all because I didnt spay her. Not to mention she could now develope cancer because of the hormones.

Name with males. They can get cancer from their hormones as well.

If your dog gets out and goes into someone elses yard and gets a female preg. YOU are liable for all expeses incured do to said pregnancy. From checkups to Emger surgery if needed. Not to metion a law suit if the dog happens to be a show dog and you ruined it's career

[Trip]

Mine are neutered, all the cats and dogs of which I have 6 in total... I appreciate the sentiment. I volunteer at the local SPCA and see soooo many dogs that will prob never be adopted because we keep putting more out there.

[Lawdog]

I just thought I would put my 2 cents in. First let me say that I will be getting Nahnuk neutered asap. For health reasons only. I don't beleive for a second that any of us here getting our dogs neutered or spayed is going to stop the pet population problem because most of us here are responsible owners and if there was an accident we would be sure the puppies were taken care of and went to good homes. Simpley put we are not the problem. The problem is people like the ones who live down the block from me. At least four times a week I will find their female pitbull wandering around the block and I will take her back to her house, put her back inside the fence and make sure she has water. I have lived here almost four years and she has had 5 litters. None of them planned. These people and ones like them are the problem. And no matter how much you try to explain to them why they should have their dog spayed or neuterd they don't care. If they were going to listen there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Because as we all know Bob Barker has been telling us to have our pets spayed or neutered since I was a kid. And everyone has seen The Price Is Right. The problem is that most people just don't care.

As for any responsible owner who chooses not to get their pet spayed or neutered. I believe that is a decission every owner has to make for themselves. I choose to do it because Nahnuk can't decide for himself. And I am sure that if he could he would choose not to get cancer.

This is just my opinion and isn't ment to hurt anyones feelings or make anyone mad. I think we all need to try a little harder to understand that our opinions a just that. They may be based on hard facts and statistics, but nothing is black and white.

[Purdue#1]

I read in "please neuter" at the top of the forum that getting a dog neutered will not stop a male's barking. Is it true?

i was going to compete with my dog, and if he could prove himself and was clear of all the tests(eyes, hips, etc.), then i might breed him.

I don't think he will make it to a year old without being neutered. My parents and i all said that if he starts mounting people he will get his boys taken away :D, but you know we can always threaten him(" remember what happened to the cats that day they stayed at the vet's for a night and they walked bowlegged for a week.") HeHe.

[Purdue#1]

oops, never mind.

[Oski]

there is no 100% security but 99.9%. outside my male is on a leash and i would never leave my dog in the yard without supervision and in that case,
sorry but i think i would realize if a dog would be ontop of mine or the other way round.
another thing is that males simply dont get pregnant. now dont call me ignorant. thats simply true. its the female that ends up with the puppys therfore its the owner of the bitch that needs to supervise. if you think thats to much work then dont get a female. it might not sound fair but who ends up with the puppys?
of course that doesnt mean that all male dogs should run at large or anything, no dogowner should let his dog run around free and without supervision.

while you think spaying is the quick fix for the stray puppy problem i simply call it animal cruelty.
then you might as well fix humans, after all there are more then enaugh orphans in this world......let alone the overpopulation of this world.
with humans nobody would think about it but everybody thinks doing it to dogs is ok......





god, you cant compare apples with pairs.........seriously



please tell me you are kidding.........i am a female and this has nothing to do with "male-pissing-contest-thinking". do you know how many problems a complete removal means for the person??? do you know how many medication you will have to take for the rest of your life, how many complications.....

that statement is rediculous, and i am tired of hearing it. you got a problem with your period, well guess what, some dont! and just trust me on this, you DONT wanna go through that surgery.

besides that i am convinced that spaying every single stray is not gonna help with the "abandoned puppy ending up in shelter and getting killed issue"

its the people who are the problem, not the dogs.

Very well said!! I was thinking the same thing...I am still young, but I would like to be able to keep my sexual organs for the rest of my life.. I hear about woman that have to get hysterectomies and they have a lot of problems afterward, not to mention the emotional problems they go through. I dont know if you wantch Sex and the City..lol..but when Samantha thought she was going through menapause and was devastated, she screamed halleluah when she got her period.

I totally agree with definately having a stray neutured because you have no idea what the family history is. I also am a little ticked off about some people's perception of breeders. I bet you that not every single one of you has bought a puppy from a 100% best in show parents....so why do a lot of you say that you should never Breed dogs that are not trophy award winners? If everyone did that then we wouldn't have many dogs available to us to buy....and the ones that we could find would be way out of most of our price range. I bought my puppy from GSD breeders that I found in the papers...according to some people, people that sell puppies after they are born, one's that don't already have owners before they are born, are backyard breeders. I will say it again, if we all breeders had to wait until they had potential buyers for all of the puppies born, then a lot of us common folks wouldnt be able to buy a dog. I looked them up in the paper and then went to their website and very much approved of the way they did things, good health records, DNA testing done on the stud, OFA certification..ect.. Even though I didn't buy my dog from top award winning parents...my guy is growing into a very beatiful dog with great conformations....and now I am interested in getting him involved in dog shows in the the future.

I would really like some input from others about what they think about my point. :) cuz you can't learn new things from things that are not said.

Thank you

[Oski]

You are mixing up dog and wolf characteristics here that don't have anything to do with each other. Dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Especially since you brought up comparing "apples and pears", if you need a little help with the differences, check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226115631/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prod_11/103-3150217-5297439?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

Actually all domesticated dogs (except for the Chihuahuas, who are related to the rat) originated from wolves....so they do have very much to do with one another..

This website goes further into it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4965516.stm

[Oski]

I just thought I would put my 2 cents in. First let me say that I will be getting Nahnuk neutered asap. For health reasons only. I don't beleive for a second that any of us here getting our dogs neutered or spayed is going to stop the pet population problem because most of us here are responsible owners and if there was an accident we would be sure the puppies were taken care of and went to good homes. Simpley put we are not the problem. The problem is people like the ones who live down the block from me. At least four times a week I will find their female pitbull wandering around the block and I will take her back to her house, put her back inside the fence and make sure she has water. I have lived here almost four years and she has had 5 litters. None of them planned. These people and ones like them are the problem. And no matter how much you try to explain to them why they should have their dog spayed or neuterd they don't care. If they were going to listen there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. Because as we all know Bob Barker has been telling us to have our pets spayed or neutered since I was a kid. And everyone has seen The Price Is Right. The problem is that most people just don't care.

As for any responsible owner who chooses not to get their pet spayed or neutered. I believe that is a decission every owner has to make for themselves. I choose to do it because Nahnuk can't decide for himself. And I am sure that if he could he would choose not to get cancer.

This is just my opinion and isn't ment to hurt anyones feelings or make anyone mad. I think we all need to try a little harder to understand that our opinions a just that. They may be based on hard facts and statistics, but nothing is black and white.


Opinion very well stated! It would be nice if everyone had your non-judgemental attitude :)

[oc_spirit]

I can say this for sure, unless a health risk pops up I will not be doing any neutering or spaying before the age of two ever again!! Once the dog turns two if there still is no medical reason why he needs to have it done or he has some big deformity that I dont want to be passed on to any dog then i wont have it done. Why? Because there are many benefits to leaving a dog intact which I find funny that no one mentions and to me those outweight the benefits of neutering.

[Momof2Pups]

Actually all domesticated dogs (except for the Chihuahuas, who are related to the rat) originated from wolves....so they do have very much to do with one another..

This website goes further into it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4965516.stm
Oh, come on..

[Oski]

Oh, come on..

:lol-sign: seriously...but its ok...rats are cool, very smart. :)


......no, im kidding, I just thought I would throw one of those funny myths in there for kicks, but I do like them...who doesn't like the Taco Bell dog??? lol

[~Jessie~]

Actually all domesticated dogs (except for the Chihuahuas, who are related to the rat) originated from wolves....so they do have very much to do with one another..

This website goes further into it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4965516.stm

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ozzie72]

I have nothing against spaying/neutering,except when owners think it's a magic bullet to all of their pets behavioural problems,when instead a good training program should be implemented.

I am however against spaying/neutering young puppies.At least wait until they are physically and mentally mature before taking away their hormones,which they need to properly develop to their full potential,both mentally and physically.

[Romy]

I have nothing against spaying/neutering,except when owners think it's a magic bullet to all of their pets behavioural problems,when instead a good training program should be implemented.

I am however against spaying/neutering young puppies.At least wait until they are physically and mentally mature before taking away their hormones,which they need to properly develop to their full potential,both mentally and physically.

Definitely true of the large breeds. My breed (borzoi) should NEVER be altered before one year of age, preferably after two. Doing so prevents their growth plates from ever properly closing and is guaranteed to cause arthritis. Every good borzoi breeder out there puts a requirement in their contract stating that the puppy will not be subjected to pediatric spaying or neutering. It's pretty unnecessary in their case anyway, as most females don't even go into their first heat until their third year.

We will probably neuter Strider when he turns two, BUT may choose to keep him intact if the male dog birth control drugs are approved for use in the US by the time he is two( very possible). The breed is extremely sensitive to anesthesia, and him dying during the surgery is a very real risk that I would rather avoid if possible. The only way I would ever consider allowing him to breed would be if:

He passed health tests for joints, thyroid, heart, and eyes, and tested negative for brucellosis.

He has a proven stable and awesome temperament (Above and beyond passing CGC)

He makes it past 5 years of age without bloating.

He proves himself to have normal conformation for the breed within the show ring.

He proves his health and "working ability" in some kind of dog sport, such as lure coursing or agility.

And even then, the one and only purpose I would breed him for is to get puppies for myself, with the intent and ability to keep every single one if needed. This is not to say I wouldn't give some away or sell to approved families (this is how we got him after all!), but the primary purpose would be improving the breed and bringing dogs into the world for our own use. I do not mind at all if someone wants to breed their dog, as long as it is planned, the animals they are using are healthy, and there is a specific purpose for the litter they have planned (aside from the usual "experience the miracle of birth" crap). Blah, sorry for the longwinded rant.

[noludoru]

Actually all domesticated dogs (except for the Chihuahuas, who are related to the rat) originated from wolves....so they do have very much to do with one another..

This website goes further into it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4965516.stm

ROFLMAO!!!! And yes, I definitely buy the story that it was just a 'joke' put in there for kicks. Suuure. ;)
Jessie, I guess no one told you that your Chis need to be kept in a cage and fed grain.

Hey Romy--I didn't know you got a dog. Did I miss the post about Strider?:confused: :confused: :confused:

[corgipower]

i found an interesting study regarding the effects of spaying and neutering. i have seen the data in several different places, however they all are referencing the same source.

i woud appreciate anyone who can either prove or disprove this.


from http://saveourdogs.net/health.html

risks of neutering a male dog:


if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) by a factor of 3.8; this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis
increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of geriatric cognitive impairment
triples the risk of obesity, and with it many of the associated health problems
quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


risks of spaying a female


if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma by a factor of 3.1; this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of more than 5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6 - 2, and with it the many associated health problems
causes urinary spay incontinence in 4-20% of female dogs
increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


from http://www.mmilani.com/commentary-200509.html

The article then goes on to discuss the role of hormones and genetic controls in cancer. All agree that there is a connection, but no one knows exactly what it is. However, in his article Dr Hahn discusses a study done by Dr David Felman (and published in the June Nature) that I find intriguing because of how it may relate to the role the animal's behavior and his/her relationship with the owner plays in cancer. In a very tiny nutshell, the study looked at two gene mutations that lead the stress hormones cortisol and cortisone to trigger the growth of later stage cancer cells.

Because cortisol is also one of the hormones that's elevated when stress results in animal behavioral problems which, in turn, may result from human-animal relationship ones, it would seem that avoiding such elevations of this hormone by treating bond and behavioral problems could conceivably lower the probability of cancer in some animals, or improve the survival chances of those already afflicted with the disease. Although such a hypothesis might seem to require too great a leap of credibility for those who associate cortisol and cortisone with those drugs that counter inflammation and itching, another effect of these hormones is that they undermine the immune response. So while they may benefit animals who encounter occasional stresses of brief duration, these same substances may seriously undermine the health of those who daily live in stressful environments. In that case, not only will these animals have a higher probability of developing stress-related behavioral and medical problems (such as aggression or separation anxiety displays, irritable bowel syndrome or chronic or recurring urinary tract conditions), these animals' taxed immune response may experience more difficulty recognizing and dispatching mutant cells before they multiply and form cancers.

PDF of Dr Hahn's study that is mentioned in the website above. (http://www.geocities.com/rottndobie/SpayNeuterCancers.pdf)

[shawnawhitewolf]

I doint know what to say fore as i go.I doint fix my boyes one reason i lost two of them to to a butch spay were she bleed to death in hosp i lost my faith in that im sorry if i **** enty on off